[dev1033] Class name changes -> Specialization/Talent Trees Into Classic FF Classes

[Kurokikaze]

No. What I noticed is that people like abusing a completely broken system. The fact that theres so much freedom is why we're discussing this in the first place. Besides I'm not taking away all their freedom - just the parts being exploited now.

Don't confuse freedom as being better than being given a few logical choices. Freedom is an illusion.

In FFXI you were free to choose whatever subjob you want. Now if SE told you that you could only use certain subjobs for each class:

Ranger could only sub Warrior, Samurai, and Ninja. Would that have hampered that job's ability to perform? Not in the slightest. Why? Because those were the only subjobs that were being used by that job, period. If a Ranger came to your merit party, HNM party with a Black Mage sub what would you say? Wheres your freedom of play now?

Yes, thats what I thought.

If you can honestly come up with a well thought out counter argument to this I'd LOVE to hear it.

Anyways, theres some food for thought. Back to BG for me.

[darkstarpoet1]

No. What I noticed is that people like abusing a completely broken system. The fact that theres so much freedom is why we're discussing this in the first place. Besides I'm not taking away all their freedom - just the parts being exploited now.

Don't confuse freedom as being better than being given a few logical choices. Freedom is an illusion.

In FFXI you were free to choose whatever subjob you want. Now if SE told you that you could only use certain subjobs for each class:

Ranger could only sub Warrior, Samurai, and Ninja. Would that have hampered that job's ability to perform? Not in the slightest. Why? Because those were the only subjobs that were being used by that job, period. If a Ranger came to your merit party, HNM party with a Black Mage sub what would you say? Wheres your freedom of play now?

Yes, thats what I thought.

If you can honestly come up with a well thought out counter argument to this I'd LOVE to hear it.

Anyways, theres some food for thought. Back to BG for me.

you call it freedom and i call it restricting. that's why we are trying to find a medium between both groups but one group wants to attack the other. that's why we agreed with the idea of the advanced classes with abilities that cannot be used on the base classes. the best argument you can come up with it it gets rid of traditional roles so i can't be lazy and only level one class with a second part time class and be a god. you don't want to take the time to level alot of classes so you want to attack the ones that do. some of us enjoy the freedom to choose to level a bunch of classes and have a bunch of abilities to use from each one. you want to level 2 classes and have a main with a subjob.

if you want to use that argument you fail in itself because if you want a traditional class/job/role whatever you want to call it then the subjob should not be allowed either. you would have one class with no subjob and only the abilities for that one class. then there will just be more people complaining that oh the thm is too overpowered or the arc does way too much damage.

[Cairdeas]

Wheres your freedom of play now?

I for one know a lot of people who would have quit if they took away the ability to equip any subjob you wanted in XI even if it didn't take away the specific subjobs they used themselves. I would have been one of them, because some of the most fun I had in XI was when I played Job Combinations that most people ignore. Even if it was only for a specific event.


White Mage/Paladin - Tanking Bones for a Mnk/PLDx5 Party.
Ninja/Ranger - Dealing enough ranged damage that I could tank without war.
Blu/Pld - Shield Bash works even if its on a Alljobs Shield.
Samurai/Drg - Yay /drg gear.

There were tons more too that I never got invites to parties for, but myself had fun playing as.

Any limitations of that nature should be implemented by yourself or the community and not the game developer. Thats the nature of a sandbox.

The School Builds the walls, it fills it with sand and toys but The people playing in it make the rules within those walls.

The problem with your system is you are trying to make the sandbox small then we already have access too.

[darkstarpoet1]

oh i was not promoting taking away of them at all. i was more of just using his point against him. he wants the subjob system but not the whole thing. he wants it so they can concentrate on 2 classes and not enjoy all of them. if he wants to do that he does have that option, but he wants to take the option away from others to have 3-4 classes because he is only going to use 2. the thing is using traditional as an argument goes against the traditional values. if you are a gla you should be a gla only not a gla/monk as each would take a lifetime to perfect.

[Cairdeas]

oh i was not promoting taking away of them at all. i was more of just using his point against him. he wants the subjob system but not the whole thing. he wants it so they can concentrate on 2 classes and not enjoy all of them. if he wants to do that he does have that option, but he wants to take the option away from others to have 3-4 classes because he is only going to use 2. the thing is using traditional as an argument goes against the traditional values. if you are a gla you should be a gla only not a gla/monk as each would take a lifetime to perfect.

Sorry my post was in reply to Kuro

[Kurokikaze]

oh i was not promoting taking away of them at all. i was more of just using his point against him. he wants the subjob system but not the whole thing. he wants it so they can concentrate on 2 classes and not enjoy all of them. if he wants to do that he does have that option, but he wants to take the option away from others to have 3-4 classes because he is only going to use 2. the thing is using traditional as an argument goes against the traditional values. if you are a gla you should be a gla only not a gla/monk as each would take a lifetime to perfect.

I just came back to say that this makes absolutely no sense. Seriously, look at my sig (which is outdated)... do I look like someone who is only going to play 2 classes? I'm someone who leveled 5-6 jobs to 75 when I played XI so this notion that I'm only doing this to be lazy... I don't even know where to begin.

I'm sorry but your "point" is... let's just say you should've thought that out better. Cause it doesn't refute mine nor have much to do with it.

The problem with your system is you are trying to make the sandbox small then we already have access too.

Of course I am and I admit it. Not because I want to but because we have to. This mix-match, play what you like regardless of how good/bad it is, is whats killing the game. Current classes have no sense of self because in the end we're only leveling them to a certain point to get X skill/trait. As I said in the OP, find me 5-10 Lancers that you know personally who leveled it to 50, then I'll tell you 20-30 that leveled it just for Fleet of Foot (20).

Lastly, I'd just like to apologize for looking at these changes through the eyes of a min-maxer.

[Cairdeas]

I just came back to say that this makes absolutely no sense. Seriously, look at my sig (which is outdated)... do I look like someone who is only going to play 2 classes? I'm someone who leveled 5-6 jobs to 75 when I played XI so this notion that I'm only doing this to be lazy... I don't even know where to begin.

I'm sorry but your "point" is... let's just say you should've thought that out better. Cause it doesn't refute mine nor have much to do with it.



Of course I am and I admit it. Not because I want to but because we have to. This mix-match, play what you like regardless of how good/bad it is, is whats killing the game. Current classes have no sense of self because in the end we're only leveling them to a certain point to get X skill/trait. As I said in the OP, find me 5-10 Lancers that you know personally who leveled it to 50, then I'll tell you 20-30 that leveled it just for Fleet of Foot (20).

Lastly, I'd just like to apologize for looking at these changes through the eyes of a min-maxer.

I do not see what the problem with that is, Its the same thing that happened in XI where people would level nin to 37 and quit as soon as they learned Utsusemi:Ni before the level cap raised.

[napalmninja]

I do not see what the problem with that is, Its the same thing that happened in XI where people would level nin to 37 and quit as soon as they learned Utsusemi:Ni before the level cap raised.

The problem with it, like Kuro said, is that these classes don't have a purpose to level outside of getting skill X.

So essentially yeah I can level all the classes, but eventually all my skills will mix together to form some ultimate class.

So you pretty much get rid of any WTM or BLM and you get a gray mage.

[Kurokikaze]

I do not see what the problem with that is, Its the same thing that happened in XI where people would level nin to 37 and quit as soon as they learned Utsusemi:Ni before the level cap raised.

Yes I agree, but the difference here is that NIN was actually a great job. LNC and the rest of the classes in this game are so bland/bad. They need to be able to stand on its own... and please don't say that "its so you can mix-match" - thats just grasping at straws. A class shouldn't need to pull from others to be good - I agree that it'll make them better, but it shouldn't be necessary.

Thank you Napalmninja.

[Cairdeas]

The problem with it, like Kuro said, is that these classes don't have a purpose to level outside of getting skill X.

So essentially yeah I can level all the classes, but eventually all my skills will mix together to form some ultimate class.

So you pretty much get rid of any WTM or BLM and you get a gray mage.

Which Is why I suggested a system that implements Job Classes (What people keep asking for) in tandem with Weapon Classes (What we already have).

http://i56.tinypic.com/15h0jt1.png

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...t-Jobs-dev1033
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...Class-Renaming