The Monk Temple Reborn

[PROBOUND]

@TrueDragon - Can you please make a video Guide? I'm sure there's much you could teach us.

[siverstorm]

The last couple of pages of this thread have been a (edit: hilarious) train wreck, holy crap.

[Crescent_Dusk]

Since when has this thread been the truedragon daily show and all that want to flame him? Can we start being better at ignoring people and move back to more productive things? I know people like a spectacle and an opportunity to flame but let's drop it already please.

[Viridiana]

And I call you a liar.

You can do that, but I've already demonstrated that you're either wrong or lying about BRD having the lowest WD weight. You could admit that you were wrong, and then I'd have no grounds to call you a liar. But instead you ignored my accusation, so I'm gonna continue making it.

Drop your attitude. I dont need to explain things to a bard with ilvl80 monk.

Funny thing is, none of that is accurate. I'm not a BRD, and my MNK isn't i80. But, I don't need a i130 MNK to realize that your math is entirely wrong.

Things have already been explained. 650 dps is a solid dps for good end game monks. I aint talking about bad monks either. So your whole 600 dps aint gonna fly.

650, as has been pointed out by better MNKs than you or I, is pretty high. It's what you would expect on an outlier good run. Using it as a basis to extrapolate upward for normal parse is dishonest. 600 is a better "normal" value. Asking to go from 600 to 730 with only the variance in DET that you can find in 130 gear is complete bullcrap, and you should know it. If you don't know it, see point 2 in my last post. You're talking about a gain of 120 DET somehow translating into 100 DPS or more. That's completely preposterous, and is not what the weighting predicts at all.

It aint my problem if you have trouble hitting 600. Up your gear, or up your rotation.
650 + effect of DET = asking for 730 is too much? Or maybe simply admit that all that DET stacking didnt jack up your dps at all

It ain't my problem if you can't understand math. I'm just going to correct you for anyone watching. 600 + 120 Determination (while hacking the game to somehow keep Crit and SS the same) still isn't enough to hit 730, no. If it were, the stat weights would be wrong.

[Truedragon]

Hit a Dummy and upload a vid!

Maybe I will. But just fyi it isnt actually very hard to do 600. Thats actually lowish. Literally 40+ videos on youtube of monks doing more. And they dont have a gazillion of det either.

It ain't my problem if you can't understand math. I'm just going to correct you for anyone watching. 600 + 120 Determination (while hacking the game to somehow keep Crit and SS the same) still isn't enough to hit 730, no. If it were, the stat weights would be wrong.

Its only not enough to hit 730 if its not actually weighted .572. Welcome to yesterday.
Just admit that det isnt worth .572. Its still the highest weighted out of crit and sks but not .572 and we are done.

You can do that, but I've already demonstrated that you're either wrong or lying about BRD having the lowest WD weight. You could admit that you were wrong, and then I'd have no grounds to call you a liar. But instead you ignored my accusation, so I'm gonna continue making it.

You havent demonstrated jack shit since you perfectly knew what I was saying. Dex doesnt scale as good as str. So the WD is changed to the same as other classes. Who gives a shit. i dont keep track everyday how these things have changed and I certainly dont have to respond to you about it coz to be blunt youre a nobody but a troublemaker. You have been flaming since the start and I dont reply to flamers. So this is my last response to you. Go ride a bike or something.

[SpookyGhost]

I'm not big on math/theorycrafting so feel free to ignore this, but the argument is confusing me a bit.

"650 DPS is a solid DPS for good end game monks", lets assume that 650 is the baseline for end game Monks with a BiS set (I... don't think it is, but let's just assume). That set is focused on stacking Det, then Crit/SS. So that 650 isn't the baseline WITHOUT Determination, it's with a good set full of Determination. Asking for a parse of 700+... doesn't really add up. Where is all this magical extra damage coming from? O_o

[Viridiana]

Its only not enough to hit 730 if its not actually weighted .572. Welcome to yesterday.
Just admit that det isnt worth .572. Its still the highest weighted out of crit and sks but not .572 and we are done.

So, in your world, determination is free and each determination point is worth nearly 1 DPS? Because in order to increase Determination by 120 in the real world, you have to sacrifice other stats. Other stats that contribute to that 630 baseline you have. So if you can find a way to take the gearset of one of those youtube MNKs and increase the Determination by 120 without sacrificing any of your other stats, you might have grounds to ask for higher parses. Of course, it's not going to be a 730 parse, because 120 Determination is not worth 100 DPS. Neither is 68 STR.

You havent demonstrated jack shit since you perfectly knew what I was saying.

Yeah, you were saying that even though crit, SS, and Det have higher weights on BRD, WD is the lowest of all the classes. This is incorrect. Had you meant to say that even though the weights are all higher the DPS is lower, you should have said that. As it stands, what you said is incorrect, and you have yet to try to correct it even though I've pointed it out to you.

Dex doesnt scale as good as str. So the WD is changed to the same as other classes. Who gives a shit. i dont keep track everyday how these things have changed and I certainly dont have to respond to you about it coz to be blunt youre a nobody but a troublemaker. You have been flaming since the start and I dont reply to flamers.

Well, you responded to me, and you don't respond to flamers, so I must not be a flamer. >_>

Where is all this magical extra damage coming from? O_o

Truedragon's pulling out of his backside. >_>

[Hakmatic]

@True The monks pulling those highend numbers you speak of already stack det, the reason I know is cause I classify myself as one. Also you are using the old weights of det = .325, and argueing that a jump in det to .45 is too much and that our dps should be way high using .45. What you are not taking in to account. .325 was never correct. It was always on the latter end of .45ish. Guess what that means? No real gain of dps because the numbers didnt work in the first place! like your agruement makes absolutely no sense. Also STR directly effects det. So the more STR you have the higher your det value is. So even if you stack alot of det via crafted, the gain is not alot because your det will not scale as high because of the loss of STR. Thats why bis builds only weigh slightly more than full 130. Which is what dervy was speaking of a few pages back but you just dont want to listen. You want to come here and argue a point using the numbers created by the people you are arguing with. I would not call myself smart if I was you, more like a confused kid wanting attention.

[Dervy]

Truedragon, you're mistaking Stat-Weights for Stat Equivalency. There's a world a difference between the two, that's why I posted those links earlier. For you to read how they're calculated and what Stat-Weights are.

Stat-Weights measure the RELATIVE damage gain against one point of Strength at a baseline. 1 STR =/= 0.439 DET. That's not how you read stat-weights. If you're making a comparison like that, you're talking about stat-equivalency, which doesn't exist due to the nature of the game and how fragile Determination and Weapon Damage are to changes. This actually applies for all stats.

Stat-weights are used to BALANCE out sets to min/max your DPS within certain constraints. That's all they are. Yes, they're derived from expected damage, but this damage is relative to Strength.

http://www.wowwiki.com/Stat_comparison

I'm not big on math/theorycrafting so feel free to ignore this, but the argument is confusing me a bit.

"650 DPS is a solid DPS for good end game monks", lets assume that 650 is the baseline for end game Monks with a BiS set (I... don't think it is, but let's just assume). That set is focused on stacking Det, then Crit/SS. So that 650 isn't the baseline WITHOUT Determination, it's with a good set full of Determination. Asking for a parse of 700+... doesn't really add up. Where is all this magical extra damage coming from? O_o

Exactly. What he doesn't realise is that these weights are calculated at a near maximum baseline of damage. With gear optimisation, you'll only receive, at most, a 15DPS boost.

For example, the Dragoon weights I calculated recently which I can verify being optimal. I used baseline stats of 663 Strength, 348 Determination, 548 Critical Hit Rating and 393 Skillspeed, giving me the following weights of:

WD: 6.623 (I calculate this differently than EMXs methodology. It would be around 9.X if I used old methods)
STR: 1.000
DET: 0.439
CRT: 0.215
SS: 0.161

For a total Set-Weighting of: 998.8

With my latest damage model, which is around 95-98% accurate, it measures expected DPS with this set to be 598.45130929 without 1.03 AP Party Buff or Pots... This is a set which is a solid baseline for all stat-values at maximum ilvl of i135. Determination is also scaling heaviest here, due to having MAXIMUM strength.

Once I optimised the set and threw in a gear set of 663 Strength, 411 Determination, 518 Critical Hit Rating and 341 Skillspeed. This is the highest possible Determination at i135, meeting Turn 13 accuracy. I get a DPS of 608.61137505 and a total Gear-Set weight of 1013.

Congrats, it's a 10.14 DPS gain, even though the theoretical stat-weights are now much higher.

Do you see what I mean? You CANNOT convert Stat-Weights directly into DPS and NO job will ever produce 660+ DPS stable over 4 minutes in this game without an insanely lucky parse run.

I'm trying to help you out here mate, but you're just too ignorant to see how wrong you are and allow myself and the community to explain it to you.

I also suggest everyone to stop replying before it get's escalated even further. If you feel like you're going to be tempted, add him to your forum ignore list and it'll automatically hide all of his posts (though, you can see he's posted and you'll have to manually open his posts).

[Truedragon]

Bottomline is this: can stat weights be used to compare dps gain even though it might not be decimally accurate.

Answer (imo): YES. Because that is exactly what we are doing already when we compare different pieces of gear. if a piece that is supposedly better than the other piece, does not actually
translate to higher dps, then this said piece is NOT better to begin with. Think about it. You talk about relative damage. Dude, to me there is no difference. A piece is either better than the other piece or not. And the only way it is BETTER, is if it translates to higher dps, higher performance.

Why do we otherwise go through all that trouble analyzing all those pieces of gear. Why do we stack up on DET. Why do we stack up on crit if the pieces do not translate to higher dps.

I do NOT convert stat weights into decimally accurate dps. I convert it into estimates. I never treated it like a atomic clock. Issue here is not 730 dps or else.
Issue here is 100 det*.572 is like 57 str.
A det stacked monk with that high of a difference SHOULD pull higher dps. NOTICABLY higher dps. Even if it is not 730. He shuld be pulling way higher and that is currently NOT the case.

WD: 6.623 (I calculate this differently than EMXs methodology. It would be around 9.X if I used old methods)
STR: 1.000
DET: 0.439
CRT: 0.215
SS: 0.161

BTW is this Monk or Drg. You posted this before for monk but you are using it now for drg?

@hakmatic
another case of falseness. I pull 610-640. Not a gazillion of det. Just 348 or 349 (before the added food).
Come back to reality if you actually think all those 620-650 monks on youtube have 450 det.
Monk BiS involves 2 crafted pieces. Again, come back to reality if you actually think using 2 crafted pieces would lower your str to such a point where DET strength difference is SIGNIFICANT.