Making WAR More Diverse/Fun Again

[Gwaeron]

Take note of the corrections.

And take note of me mentioning for the... is it the third time now? that WAR did not DD as well as the real DD jobs, just like ACN doesn't heal as well as CNJ. I don't know why you keep claiming this is impossible when it has been done. Heck, it's being done still. Is Sword Oath on PLD game breaking? Turn off Defiance and you'll do more damage, but it also makes the job boring and you'll just be a MRD who can use Bravura and WAR AF. Re-adding Berserk as a stance that doesn't make it boring to play as a DD can surely be done, as it used to be that way before and it was definitely not broken. Look for old 1.23 videos and tell me how many parties full of WARs you see. After all, since they could DD as well there is no reason to ever bring any proper DD, right?

[Kitru]

Heck, it's being done still. Is Sword Oath on PLD game breaking?

There's a big difference between Sword Oath and what you're suggesting for WAR. MRD already deals a lot more damage than GLA. Sword Oath is there to bridge the gap between non-tank PLD and non-tank WAR. If you want there to be some kind of DPS stance for WAR, fully expect WAR to get nerfed to justify the increase in functionality you're asking for.

As I'm pretty sure has already been said, WAR gets Defiance as a tank stance and has its DPS "stance" as its normal state; PLD has explicit stances for both and an inferior normal state. Hell, it's why Defiance has a bigger damage debuff than Shield Oath does: a stanceless WAR is going to deal more damage than a stanceless PLD so they *have* to debuff WAR more.

[whiskeybravo]

As I'm pretty sure has already been said, WAR gets Defiance as a tank stance and has its DPS "stance" as its normal state; PLD has explicit stances for both and an inferior normal state. Hell, it's why Defiance has a bigger damage debuff than Shield Oath does: a stanceless WAR is going to deal more damage than a stanceless PLD so they *have* to debuff WAR more.

I thought it was because Maim.. Effectively makes Defiance penalty only 5%. Fight of Flight is a good offensive buff, but can't be kept up 100% of the time.

Random musings:

I don't understand exactly how the numbers are affected. Sword Oath increases auto-attack by 50, so that brings Curtana Zenith to around 85. Bravura auto-attack is 52 natively, so could you say that Maim would increase Auto-attack potency by 10? (20% of 52 is around 10).. Plus the 20% to weaponskill attacks?

[Gamemako]

Small nitpick: I'm assuming you meant "Dark Knight" earlier? It'll likely take the same abbreviation it did in XI, "DRK" ^^b

I am aware, and it was deliberate, not only in differentiating it from FF11's scythe-wielding suicide soldier but also in expressing my general disdain for everything FF11. FF11 is my constant example of everything done wrong, and I feel like I could insert "NIN" into everything Gwaeron has thus far said as an example of what a broken disaster like this actually looks like.

And I don't totally disagree with your point about WAR & PLD being somewhat close to the threshold in terms of dps performance/obsoleting dedicated DD's, but that's why I'd like to see Unchained turned into an offensive stance that puts WAR up a bit but perhaps still not quite as strong as a dedicated dps class - otherwise why even bother with those classes apart for Limit Break uses.

You're already all of 10-15% behind a BRD. Grab your DPS accessories, respec to STR, and give it a whirl. There's no room to buff. That is not mention that you're taking up valuable skill slots for something that the job actually does, resulting in a rubbish job that is gimped in its primary role for the sake of being gimped at something it isn't meant to be used for. If you rolled a tank, play a tank. If you rolled a DPS, play a DPS. If you want to be a godlike end-all-be-all, play a single-player game.

And take note of me mentioning for the... is it the third time now? that WAR did not DD as well as the real DD jobs, just like ACN doesn't heal as well as CNJ. I don't know why you keep claiming this is impossible when it has been done.

It hasn't. If you somehow believe that SMN can heal for nuts, then there's no convincing you of anything.

[Gwaeron]

It hasn't. If you somehow believe that SMN can heal for nuts, then there's no convincing you of anything.

It has been done, I have played it and I do not understand why you refuse to believe me. Go ahead and check for yourself.
If you indeed do know how to read, you will notice how I've been saying SMN can't heal well and that old WAR couldn't DD well (in comparison to real healers and real DDs). Me and OP want the damage dealing to not be boring, nowhere have we stated that this needs to be overpowered and that we need to do tons more damage than we do now. You are aware that "change" does not equal "buffing", right...?

I also said I wouldn't mind at all if they gave the damage dealing aspect of WAR to a separate MRD-based job earlier. No-one is expecting WAR to be as good at DDing as a true DD.

[Ehayte]

Me and OP want the damage dealing to not be boring...

Ain't no dev got time for that!

I'd much rather have a new primal, or a fix to the game, or a new 4 man dungeon, or a NEW class/job, than to make playing WAR slightly more fun in Crystal Tower.

If this is just a pipe-dream wish-list, then that's totally cool, and I agree it would be awesome if they made a super fun stance for WARs while not tanking. However, that takes time and money that I hope are appropriated elsewhere.

[Gamemako]

I thought it was because Maim.. Effectively makes Defiance penalty only 5%. Fight of Flight is a good offensive buff, but can't be kept up 100% of the time.

MRD has higher damage in general than GLA. The class has higher potency, a 20% buff, and a 10% debuff. It seems to me that this was done in preparation for a DPS job. MRD originally fell fairly close to LNC, and your MRD DPS job would be more about the utility and/or damage offered by the abilities and less about disruptive mechanics. By contrast, any other GLA job needs a highly disruptive mechanic like Darkside to shift roles. Sword Oath exists to maintain balance between WAR and PLD in off-tanking situations, so there are really two possibilities here. First, they have a mechanic in mind and are willing to sacrifice a job slot for tank-specific balance; or alternatively, they wanted to cram as much tank into the class as possible and finding room for DPS abilities was too limited to justify not just throwing it onto the job.

As for Sword Oath mechanics, at least from my phase 3 data, it adds a 50 potency attack to each autoattack (was 25). This is greater than a 50% autoattack damage buff.

[Kitru]

As for Sword Oath mechanics, at least from my phase 3 data, it adds a 50 potency attack to each autoattack (was 25). This is greater than a 50% autoattack damage buff.

It still does. It adds an extra attack with every auto-attack you make. Auto-attacks are 83.33 potency per GCD over time, so, with a swing speed of 2.32 (Curtana's; keep in mind, that's *slow* for the swords; Allagan and Break Blade are both 2.16), you're getting an extra 53.9 potency per GCD from Sword Oath, which is a ~65% improvement in total damage from your auto-attacks.

[NefGP]

I am aware, and it was deliberate, not only in differentiating it from FF11's scythe-wielding suicide soldier but also in expressing my general disdain for everything FF11. FF11 is my constant example of everything done wrong, and I feel like I could insert "NIN" into everything Gwaeron has thus far said as an example of what a broken disaster like this actually looks like.

yeah that's why FFXI won multiple awards and has been the most successful & profitable entry in the series' history. XI was far from perfect, but it sounds like you were just bad at the game. XI still has a better job system than this game (among other attributes that are better) despite the fact that XIV fixed a lot of what was wrong with XI (crafting, gathering, skilling up and gear swapping to name a few gripes).

[Gamemako]

yeah that's why FFXI won multiple awards and has been the most successful & profitable entry in the series' history.

FF11 won very few awards and is the most profitable FF title because it has run so damn long with so many expansions. That constant development train can provide more and more profit under a single name as time goes on, while that amount of development time would otherwise fall into three or four titles needing new engines and so on. Anyway, I created a long response about all the reasons nobody in his right godsdamned mind would touch that piece of digital excrement and why it's "successful" (hint: it's the FF name and nothing else), but we've gone far enough off topic.

WAR is not in need of a DPS stance. It is opposed to the interests of balance and is not fun. Stances are a design concession, not a feature. You are not using Sword Oath and Shield Oath because hitting the button to change every 2-5 minutes is a delightful experience. They exist to serve a mechanical purpose.