Regarding Endgame DF and Tank Design

[Amyas]

Non-tank stance for Wars would be... not using defiance :P

Eh, and not use any Warrior ability in the process, Paladins don't need to do this, why should Warriors?

Wars can do substantial dps without defiance, and what abilities would we miss out on? Inner beast? Steel Cyclone? You can just pop defiance on, infuriate, use IB/SC, pop defiance off and continue dpsing away.

[Yagrush]

Non-tank stance for Wars would be... not using defiance :P

Eh, and not use any Warrior ability in the process, Paladins don't need to do this, why should Warriors?

Non-tank stance for Wars would be... not using defiance :P



Wars can do substantial dps without defiance, and what abilities would we miss out on? Inner beast? Steel Cyclone? You can just pop defiance on, infuriate, use IB/SC, pop defiance off and continue dpsing away.

Maybe if you're overgeared for the content. Also, if this were true, people wouldn't mind picking up a Warrior who isn't gonna tank into a Titan HM.. They aren't doing this.

[Gamemako]

This idea is directed towards fights like Ifrit and Titan, where two tanks aren't actually required. In Ifrit's case, the only reason the two tanks are viable is because one is just a stun bot, while on Titan he is just being a gimped DPS. This means that one of the tanks ends up being a burden, which is bad design.

Godsdammit. Say it with me now: WAR is not a DPS.

You see, PLD needs Sword Oath to be able to match WAR non-Defiance DPS. This is the reason for the existence of Sword Oath in the first place. Second, you've overestimated the difference between tank and DPS damage output -- it's 20-25%, not 70%. Compare WAR to DRG, and know that both have PGL and MRD abilities. The difference between the two is exactly 32 strength, then potency and ability considerations. End result is that DRG gets ~7-9% more damage from STR differences and another 10% or so out of greater potency on attacks, then the bonus off-GCD abilities. Additionally, WAR is already getting a buff to address some of the endgame struggles.

Maybe if you're overgeared for the content. Also, if this were true, people wouldn't mind picking up a Warrior who isn't gonna tank into a Titan HM.. They aren't doing this.

You're seriously demanding that a tank be a full-fledged DPS. That won't ever happen, obviously. However, you also have to realize that people often aren't doing things because they're just as easily confused as you are about the game's mechanics. Parties of 4 tanks have handily downed Titan -- take this thread, for example.

[Yagrush]

Godsdammit. Say it with me now: WAR is not a DPS.

You see, PLD needs Sword Oath to be able to match WAR non-Defiance DPS. This is the reason for the existence of Sword Oath in the first place. Second, you've overestimated the difference between tank and DPS damage output -- it's 20-25%, not 70%. Compare WAR to DRG, and know that both have PGL and MRD abilities. The difference between the two is exactly 32 strength, then potency and ability considerations. End result is that DRG gets ~7-9% more damage from STR differences and another 10% or so out of greater potency on attacks, then the bonus off-GCD abilities. Additionally, WAR is already getting a buff to address some of the endgame struggles.

Don't take my posts out of context. I'm specifically saying that encounters that the second tank IS NOT NEEDED, in the grand scheme of things, is what could've been a better dps, and among hardcore players would rather be efficient and take a 5th dps instead, which they are still doing.

Also, I don't have the math to back it up, but I really doubt Wars only do 7-9% less dps than a dps geared DRG who knows what he is doing, while you are geared for tanking. Gearing for dps as a tank, imo, defeats the purpose of having the DF allow 2 tanks into the queue.

[Gamemako]

No, I don't want them to be a full-fledged dps

Yes, you do. You're telling everyone that WAR can't ever tank, it needs a DPS stance to boost DPS, and that no party will take a tank as sub-par DPS, all in the same breath. You may prance around saying "but I didn't claim they needed to be like a DPS", but you created a scenario where the only possible suggestion is exactly what you disclaimed.

You're also assuming an overgear where none exists, once again. You're talking about a thread in which there are a bunch of WAR players who don't have better than Garuda weapons because they haven't successfully done Titan yet.

Don't take my posts out of context. I'm specifically saying that encounters that the second tank IS NOT NEEDED, in the grand scheme of things, is what could've been a better dps, and among hardcore players would rather be efficient and take a 5th dps instead, which they are still doing.

They're taking 6 DPS, actually, when a second healer isn't needed. When you make the assumption that everything has gone swimmingly, then you're always going to lose out to another DPS. You are never going to get people voluntarily taking another tank or healer when they can avoid it. Hell, people won't even take sub-par DPS characters.

[Yagrush]

Yes, you do. You're telling everyone that WAR can't ever tank, it needs a DPS stance to boost DPS, and that no party will take a tank as sub-par DPS, all in the same breath. You may prance around saying "but I didn't claim they needed to be like a DPS", but you created a scenario where the only possible suggestion is exactly what you disclaimed.

You're also assuming an overgear where none exists, once again. You're talking about a thread in which there are a bunch of WAR players who don't have better than Garuda weapons because they haven't successfully done Titan yet

Wow. When did I every say "WAR can't ever tank"? Are you serious? Did you EVEN read my OP fully? You're putting words into my mouth that are out of context. The only context where I think a DPS boost is needed is when a DF forces on you a 2 tank queue and there's a dps race that dictates whether or not you will achieve victory in an encounter (I.e. Titan). But you would know this already if you actually read the OP.

Also, I'm assuming that there's overgear when none exist? Are you saying that Relic + 1, ilvl90 gear isn't being overgeared for Titan HM? Really? And, also, that's the one situation where it really isn't valid to this discussion, since this issue assumes you are progressing and utilizing the expected gear level for content.

Also, having the Garuda weapon is the expected ilvl weapon you'll be using for Titan HM, anything above is being overgeared, by definition, so I don't see where you are going with that.

By the way, you are completely missing the point of the issue, while you are busy putting words in my mouth.

[Amyas]

Maybe if you're overgeared for the content. Also, if this were true, people wouldn't mind picking up a Warrior who isn't gonna tank into a Titan HM.. They aren't doing this.

In many cases, an experienced party would not mind picking up a war for dps on titan, I actually had a few attempts as one yesterday (I really wanted to mt it though, so I only gave it around 4 tries before I let them find a *real* dd, maybe one that can actually dodge :P)

You lose the healing buff from wrath stacks. GG

Why on earth would you need the healing buff from defiance if you're not tanking? Don't know what kind of parties you've been in, but if you're a dd, you shouldn't be taking that much damage, if at all :3 I mean, even on titan as a war dps, you're easier to heal than a regular dps without defiance on, and you're always taking damage from stomps.

[Gooner_iBluAirJGR]

Non-tank stance for Wars would be... not using defiance :P



Wars can do substantial dps without defiance, and what abilities would we miss out on? Inner beast? Steel Cyclone? You can just pop defiance on, infuriate, use IB/SC, pop defiance off and continue dpsing away.

You lose the healing buff from wrath stacks. GG