WHM: Relic+1 vs AF2

There was another thread recently about Scholar, but wasn't sure if it differed from WHM at all (since their relic has spell haste and SCHs like Crit). Anyways.

Would it be best to get WHM Relic+1 (for more healing output) or AF2 body (for more survivability)? My Coils group is up to Turn 4 currently, and it'd be kinda annoying if the healing body dropped somewhere after just buying the AF2 one... But... I'm undecided. I see a lot of WHM AF2 bodies walking around though.

Any thoughts would be great, thanks. :)

Tanks face the same problem, but, you must remember that moving to a body/head upgrade out of darklight will leave you wearing an underpowered head piece untill you can afford to buy it as well. Also, as you said, there is the chance to get allagan gear, where as it is rather unlikely you will be getting the allagan weapon next week (Since no one will, odds are).

Whm benefits from all secondary stats so just get as many ilvl90 peices as possible. Look at what drops in coil and spend your myth on things that wont drop.

E.g allagans healing pants and and weapon drops from turn 5 so you should probally buy af+1 pants and relic+1

For sch they want to avoid wasting points on spell speed due to how the stat can punish them and how lustrate and faerie does not benefit from it. Sch crit is a catch all since it boosts output and spell speed too.

Thanks a lot for your reply. :) I was leaning toward the Relic+1 for the very reasons you listed, but I see a ton of AF2 bodies on WHM on my server, so I wasn't sure if I was missing something. lol

Relic +1 is the biggest upgrade to your healing which you should be getting first. Not to mention the allagan equivalent drops from twintania which has not even beaten yet.

Healing body drops from coil 4 which you should get a shot at every week.

From what I've noticed, I think a lot of AF2 bodies were bought by people who had the poitns to spend but hadn't yet be in groups that could clear titan. Besides, glowing relix are just awesome. Almost makes me sad that all my other relix will never/not for a long time glow.

Relic +1 all the way. Many people bought the chest and made a big mistake.

Even if I was certain of my decision, I tested it on a random guy with all DL except for AF2 chest, obviously AK head and AK ring. His Cure I were pathetic, around 910 while mine are around 950. Weapon damage, even if it's just a 3 point difference between the Relic and the +1 is the best upgrade you can get.

If you think a small boost in the heal is worth more than more defense then by all means, go ahead and get Relic+1.
The AF2 chest is better than the Allagan chest, the Cleric chest gives you spell speed instead of Determination which the Allagan one gives.

Sebyos, 910 heals vs 950 heals isn't pathetic. Keep in mind that he's able to take a bit more damage than you because of that, a dead healer is a worthless healer.
I personally went for the AF2 chest and the AF2 head, I will be getting the Relic+1 next though since it's now the biggest upgrade for me.

For a DPS, the relic +1 might be worth going for first, but it's questionable if the same goes for healers and tanks.

I personally went for af2 body over +1 my relic. But it was for full cosmetic reasons only.

I can't stand the cowls. Plus I had just enough left over to where when I cap I can get the circlet the following week. I'll probably save up for my weapon now. I just love my af2 body though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sziadan

.

---

First of all, the small boost in healing is bigger than the tiny defence boost. You obviously just didn't even bother to check the numbers before talking. The 90 chest has 62 defence and then you are stuck with a AK headpiece, but even if you had a 90 headpiece, the total would only be 106 compared to 98 for the chest.

Now as for the spell speed and determination, I think you haven't checked either. The AF2 chest gives 24 spellspeed and 39 total with a 90 headpiece. To test the effect of such a gain, I removed 3 DL accessories worth 27 spellspeed and my AK ring for a total of 38 spellspeed and it changed my cast time by 0.03 seconds. Now I'm not saying it's better or worse than determination. First because we don't have actual numbers for determination and two, because it's probably a very small difference like spellspeed.

(Continuing next post because 1000 characters is complete garbage.)

So to sum it up, you are either claiming that you should sacrifice 40 healing on Cure I and roughly 70 on Cure II, the go to heal in Coil, for 8 defense and 0.03 cast time or you are simply assuming things without thinking about it in which case you should NOT give such false advice to people on the forums.

Oh if you want to come back and talk about other stat like Mind and Vitality, let's just say that pretty much every informed player will tell you that 1 weapon damage is worth a lot of stat point. Sources vary between 5 to 8 points, but no matter what it is, that +3 damage is worth a lot of stat points.

I'm not going to argue that 1 weapon stat (in this case the mind version) isn't worth more than 1 normal mind.
As I said, I can understand some classes going for the Relic+1, but for healers it's just not worth it to go for it first unless you just have to have as high heal as possible. For some people, being able to survive is more important than just casting a cure that is a tiny bit stronger.

I guess you haven't entered Coil yet, but in most cases, more HP and defense is better than a small increase on your healing power. Getting one shotted, or dying by raid damage wont work for your team, healing coil however without the relic+1 is easy (I'm personally on turn 4 right now and still haven't had any trouble healing, second whm we've been going with isn't using relic+1 either). In coil, you'll want to be able to survive the hits.


Speaking of the "pretty much every informed player will tell you that 1 weapon damage is worth a lot of stat point".. I read the thread on reddit as well, the thread was about "should I get relic +1 on my DPS rather than AF2". Most people just figured that the same goes for all classes even though they specifically discussed DPS. Ask those "informed players" where their info comes from, I'm sure they all got it from the same place or via a friend who got it from there.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sziadan

In coil, you'll want to be able to survive the hits..

---

You could just respec into vit, if that was a major concern.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Matsume

You could just respec into vit, if that was a major concern.

---

Or get AF2 instead of Relic+1, I'm not saying you should get every single AF2 piece instead of relic +1 though.
If you respec into Vit then the relic +1 arguement is invalid anyway since the boost you get from relic +1 is basically the same as having 30 mind.

Either way, I'm 20 mind and 10 vit and since I went for a couple of AF2 pieces (instead of Relic +1) I can survive already.
Im at almost 4k HP (3986) when I go into Coil (vit buff from party), + extra defense from my gear.

The +1 weapon will provide a larger boost to your healing potency than any other upgrade available. "Survivability" is completely irrelevant.

Don't listen to any other suggestion. Need proof? Try this.


Edit:

Quote:

---

extra defense

---

http://www.netmeister.org/blog/image...d-facepalm.jpg

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jahaudant

The +1 weapon will provide a larger boost to your healing potency than any other upgrade available.

---

No one said it wasn't.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jahaudant

"Survivability" is completely irrelevant.

---

I'm glad not everyone thinks like you do.

Let me rephrase that because I can see how it might be slightly misleading.

Survivability in terms of considering what piece to upgrade from i70 to i90 is irrelevant.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sziadan

No one said it wasn't.

---

I wasn't presenting an argument to anyone except OP. Not sure why you would assume this.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jahaudant

Let me rephrase that because I can see how it might be slightly misleading.

Survivability in terms of considering what piece to upgrade from i70 to i90 is irrelevant.

I wasn't presenting an argument to anyone except OP. Not sure why you would assume this.

---

Defense isn't the only thing you get from getting chest+head AF2 vs DL.
You also get 15 more Vit, 13 mind, 23 more pie and 39 spell speed (though you lose 29 determination).
On top of that, you also get 8 more def/mdef.

While +1 do make your heals slightly better compared to AF2 upgrades, it's not such a big upgrade that you should disregard it completely.
But, I've already said everything I can say on this matter, to those who disagree with me, lets just agree to disagree.

As for "Not sure why you would assume this".
Well, everyone had already said it, only reason to why I reacted to it is because of this:
"Don't listen to any other suggestion.".

Since I'm saying that AF2 is a viable option instead of Thyrus +1, I assumed you were targeting me there and wanted to make it clear that no one (not even me) were saying otherwise.

About the Allagan healing body... To whoever said it, are you sure it's worse than AF2? I know Determination and Spell Speed are both kinda eh, but Spell Speed makes SUCH a little difference... I just assumed the Allagan body was better since it had Determination instead of Spell Speed. I'm not certain, though.

Anywho, I ended up getting the Relic+1 and will work toward Allagan body or AF2 body (depends which one I get first). Thanks for all the replies!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sziadan

.

---

Ok, again, everything you said was misinformed while being very easy to verify.

First, I am in Coil and a quick Lodestone search would have confirmed it. I am also on turn 4 and let me tell you something so far, survivability is irrelevant. You shouldn't get hit by anything in Turn 1 except the weak poison pools which you don't even need to heal. You shouldn't get hit by anything but Vacuum Wave in Turn 2 that hits for a weak 300 which is easily healed. Turn 3 is a joke and you shouldn't get hit by anything in turn 4 either.

But anyway, even if some players and you were bad enough to need defence because you somehow get hit by stuff, you have to calculate and verify the gains to make an informed decision.

1000 chars...

I already proved that in an unfair comparison, 8 defence is insignificant, but let's check Vitality since you obviously haven't check any information again. The gain of going for the chest with a AK headpiece is 7VIT, but you sacrifice the 5 VIT of the +1 so you literally gain 2VIT, 30 HP...

Overall you need to stop reacting like a child and inventing illogical arguments until I stop answering to then pretend you somehow won the debate instead of admitting to be wrong and/or bad enough to need such small defence gains.

Oh and please don't attack people's way to inform themselves on that Reddit thread when you don't even inform yourself to begin with.

Talking about all the pieces of af2 vs relic+1. Way to go seems to be AF2 Culottes and after that relic+1 then the other pieces of af2.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sebyos

You shouldn't get hit by anything but Vacuum Wave in Turn 2 that hits for a weak 300 which is easily healed. Turn 3 is a joke and you shouldn't get hit by anything in turn 4 either.

But anyway, even if some players and you were bad enough to need defence because you somehow get hit by stuff, you have to calculate and verify the gains to make an informed decision.

---

My point was that you shouldn't wipe the raid just because you accidentally get hit.
Obviously if you never ever get hit, you don't need defense. However, if the rest of your party doesn't suck then you don't need to heal 40 more HP per heal either.
So, back to square one huh? Since we're both able to progress in Coil with different gear then it doesn't matter, since Coil is the only real endgame right now.

I prefer to take less damage, you prefer to heal a bit more. Both obviously work.
Not sure how I'm supposed to be misinformed, I've never said that Thyrus +1 doesn't give a higher heal.
All I've said was that I prefer defense over +40 on cure 1 and that not having that +40 isn't pathetic.

Either way, I'm dropping this conversation now since people here apparently aren't open for discussion.


PS: You can edit your posts to get around the 1000 char limit.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sziadan

.

---

I still don't understand why you would pick 8 or less defence and 30 hp over 40 heals on cure I and about 70 on Cure II, but whatever.

Thanks the 1000 chars tip

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mireillechan

Talking about all the pieces of af2 vs relic+1. Way to go seems to be AF2 Culottes and after that relic+1 then the other pieces of af2.

---

^ this!

sup everyone, I have exactly the same question.. I've been saving to get the +1 weap, but then I saw the Culottes and wondering if getting those would be the better buy... I mean ALL the stats on the Culottes suggests that it's the logical choice over the Thyrus +1, but I don't know if the relic +1 has hidden stats that I'm unaware of since alot of people seem to be pushing for the +1 relic....

my current legs <<

which upgrade should I get?

Thyrus +1
Cleric Culottes

Thyrus +1.

Replace your strategos legs with Darklight when you have the time.

Why? Upgrading your weapon not only increases it's basic stats, but also increases it's Magic Damage which by itself is worth roughly 14 MND in terms of healing potency.

You can use this calculator to work out the gains of each upgrade if you want.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jahaudant

Thyrus +1.

Replace your strategos legs with Darklight when you have the time.

Why? Upgrading your weapon not only increases it's basic stats, but also increases it's Magic Damage which by itself is worth roughly 14 MND in terms of healing potency.

You can use this calculator to work out the gains of each upgrade if you want.

---

thx for editing your post b/c that's EXACTLY what I couldn't understand.. I had no idea that magic damage would give WHM mind.. I thought it would of been for INT... so thx for the info.. much appreciated!! ^^

Wow sziadan what a noob and embarassing posts you have made . I hope noone takes them seriously. I would recommend you delete them from the forum. I apologise for being harsh but i am doing so that misinformation doesnt screw over my fellow healers. Nothing personal.

DO YOU FORGET SZIADAN THAT COIL 4 DROPS HEALING BODY BUT RELIC+1 DROPS FROM COIL 5 .Which noone in the world has beaten legit. so if healers buy af2 body they are most likely to waste body drops of coil 4. which doesnt even have too bad of a gear requirement.(can be done with relic and full Strategos gear as a healer)

Personal defence is irrelevant in coil1-4 . Your tanks will be getting Destroyed in coil though. The more healing potency you have the less you need to cure 2 during easy points which means more mana saved which means you are able to spam cure 2 more during the points where tank takes ridiculous damage.

Now your personal defence may start to matter in coil 5 however by that time as long as you get enough lvl90 gear , use food and keep up stoneskin/adlo you are fine.Again in coil 5 tanks take a crap ton of damage that needs to topped up fast by the whm. Sch lack the consistent healing potency(when lustrate is down)to bring tank/raid up to full so its on the whm alot of the time.

Any newbie healer out there please buy relic +1. Do not potentially screw yourself by wasting mytho especially when there is that cross class healing Body that you may potentially get in coil 4. I recommend buying mytho peices that drop from coil 5(relic +1 and healing pants) because realistically you wont beat it soon . But you will be farming coil 1-4 for a while getting like a 12% chance at each drop per week

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sebyos

I still don't understand why you would pick 8 or less defence and 30 hp over 40 heals on cure I and about 70 on Cure II, but whatever.

Thanks the 1000 chars tip

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sharazisspecial

Personal defence is irrelevant coil1-4 . Your tank will getting Destroyed in coil though. The more healing potency you have the less you need to cure 2 during easy points which means more mana saved which means you able spam cure 2 more during the points where tank takes ridiculous damage.

Now your personal defence may start to matter in coil 5 however by that time as long as you get enough lvl90 gear , use food and keep up stoneskin/adlo you are fine.Again in coil 5 tanks take a crap ton of damage that needs to topped up fast by the whm. Sch lack the consistent healing potency(when lustrate is down)to bring tank/raid up full so its on the whm alot of the time.

---

These guys know what they're talking about.

Though i didn't read through all the reply's (and feel usually it's up to the player for what is best for them) I have to say i disagree with the +1relic being "the best upgrade for your mythos" here's why... It only is an increase of +4 to each stat from the normal relic... but cost the amount of at at least 2 pieces of ilvl 90 hear. In whm spec i'm a dusk/elezen, and have about 5 pieces of ak gear The cleric circlet and gloves (ilvl 90) and the rest darklight, but my mnd and healing potency is higher than a Keeper of the moon, with darklight and relic +1. again it should be the players preference but honestly an ilvl 80 weapon to ilvl 90 isn't really going to be "the best upgrade" necessarily. It also depends greatly on what you have equipped currently. But honestly upgrading Thyrus to ilvl 90 up from 80 isn't as good as upgrading darklight or ak/wp gear up to ilvl 90.

Also Magic Dmg DOES NOT increase healing magic potency. (and even if it does the +1 to relic is only 3 points)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Caduceus

Magic Dmg DOES NOT increase healing magic potency. (and even if it does the +1 to relic is only 3 points)

---

Most people are in agreement that magic damage does affect healing done to a target, so I think the burden of proof is on you. What are your sources? Where is your data? Also, you can't say 3 points is meaningless unless we can establish a conversion. For all you know 1 pt of damage is equal to 10 mnd.

Proof is easy it's simple addition. As a dusk elezen at 50 i have a base of 244 mnd. I speced solely into mnd for an additional 30 then when i add my gear the mnd comes out to the exact number of the bonus healing. 244(base)+30(attribute points)+157(stats on current gear) = 431 (which wouldn't you know it is the exact number of my healing magic potency! Hope this helps you all... grab a calculator and do the math yourselves instead of just reading it on the internet and believing it's truth.

(i have since changed my robe to vanya so if you check it it shows at 435 it's the vanya update)

Magic Damage doesn't increase Heal Magic Potency stat, but it does have an effect on the formula for healing spells...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hiro_Protagonist

Most people are in agreement that magic damage does affect healing done to a target, so I think the burden of proof is on you. What are your sources? Where is your data? Also, you can't say 3 points is meaningless unless we can establish a conversion. For all you know 1 pt of damage is equal to 10 mnd.

---

my sources are the game itself as i don't research the internet data i go by actual in game... if you look on lodestone you can search the character themselves. the data again... in the game and off lodestone not a third party entity.

I'd like to know where these other people are coming up with their numbers/formulas. ESP since you can't have a thyrus and a thyrus +1 to truly "compare the numbers" and how exactly does the dmg exactly factor into the healing formula? unless you programmed the game you have no idea what the "formula" really is.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Caduceus

Proof is easy it's simple addition. As a dusk elezen at 50 i have a base of 244 mnd. I speced solely into mnd for an additional 30 then when i add my gear the mnd comes out to the exact number of the bonus healing. 244(base)+30(attribute points)+157(stats on current gear) = 431 (which wouldn't you know it is the exact number of my healing magic potency! Hope this helps you all... grab a calculator and do the math yourselves instead of just reading it on the internet and believing it's truth.

(i have since changed my robe to vanya so if you check it it shows at 435 it's the vanya update)

---

Healing magic potency is only one part of the calculations that go into healing. Weapon damage also counts.

Case in point:

As a BLM with relic+1 (69 WD), I heal around 380 consistently with Physick.
With the exact same equipment otherwise, I switch to a Bone Brand, a level 5 staff with 11 WD. My heals consistently heal for around 120 with Physick.

There is no Mind difference, as it is on neither weapon. There is a Determination difference, but not NEARLY enough to shift the numbers around so much, as I went from 286 Determination with relic+1 to 268 Determination with the Bone Brand. No matter how you slice it, WD has a HUGE impact on healing output.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sleigh

Healing magic potency is only one part of the calculations that go into healing. Weapon damage also counts.

Case in point:

As a BLM with relic+1 (69 WD), I heal around 380 consistently with Physick.
With the exact same equipment otherwise, I switch to a Bone Brand, a level 5 staff with 11 WD. My heals consistently heal for around 120 with Physick.

There is no Mind difference, as it is on neither weapon. There is a Determination difference, but not NEARLY enough to shift the numbers around so much, as I went from 286 Determination with relic+1 to 268 Determination with the Bone Brand. No matter how you slice it, WD has a HUGE impact on healing output.

---

This being true can you say that 3 weapon dmg for the +1 to thyrus is a better upgrade than changing an ilvl 60 or ilvl 70 to an ilvl 90?... changed out my thyrus to my first weapon given and the drop was drastic as you stated. it is a loss of both all mnd and all determination. when i switch out to a weapon with less mnd less determination and 26 less weapon dmg the healing drops by 300. so that's (without accounting for mind and determination about 11 per point of dmg) however the mnd and determination that i lose on top of the 26 dmg is determination 15 and 18mnd. Like i originally said i think it depends on the part of the player; however, it is good to know that dmg does play a part. thanks for pointing this out. (further math from your numbers on healing with your black mage: Each point of weapon dmg is equal to 4.482758620689655 (again not counting your loss of determination) So that would be 12 added to each heal based on weapon dmg to upgrade thyrus to +1.

Weapon Damage has more of a significant impact on how much your healing spells heal than MND does. There is a complete detailed breakdown that reverse engineers the healing calculation in game on the B.L.I.T.Z.B.A.L.L. website: http://valk.dancing-mad.com/?page_id...alingmechanics. There is also a WHM Healing Returns calculator (and a general Heals calculator) that can be used to determine just how much impact a change will have.

I don't quite have full DL yet (pants and boots are Strategos and both rings are still L49 HQ rings; my lodestone profile though has the gear I'm currently Spirit-Binding for money). Even using my current SP-ing gear, my crit adjusted heal for Cure 1 (400 potency) is 868.49. With Thyrus+1, the +3 weapon damage increases my crit adjusted heal to 897.56 (900 Myth spent for an increase of ~0.032 points/Myth). If I upgrade from DL body to AF2 body/head, my crit adjusted heal goes to 893.37 (1320 Myth spent for an increase of ~0.019/Myth).

So from an upgrade efficiency stand-point, it is much more efficient for me to upgrade to Thyrus+1 before my AF2 body.

It's common knowledge that weapon damage is the single most beneficiary stat in the game in terms of increasing raw healing. The amount one weapon damage gives is extraordinary when compared to any other stat for us. Coil does not demand survivability from healers until turn 5. However, it does demand high HPS.

Thyrus +1 is generally considered better than Allagan turn 5 weapon. (Thyrus +1 is BiS)
Allagan chest is considered better than AF+1 body by pretty much anyone who has done any research on spell speed. (Allagan body is BiS)
OP also has access to turn 4 loot. (Access to Allagan body)

I personally would not, and do not buy myth items for my WHM if they are not best in slot (meaning the Allagan equivalent is better) until I have obtained all of my BiS myth pieces. Why? The answer is obvious: wasted mythology. AF+1 robe falls under the category of "not BiS", therefor in my opinion, do not buy it until you have all of your BiS mythology pieces, and AF+1 pants which drop off of turn 5.

The decision is an easy one. Go for Thyrus +1, don't even buy robe until you have all your BiS myth (unless you feel like replacing and wasting that mythology that could be better spent on other pieces of gear, or an alt class).
If you do end up going the AF+1 chest, which i strongly disadvise, be prepared to buy a Vanya's hat and socket it with full materia assuming you do not already have a good hat.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Caduceus

Each point of weapon dmg is equal to 4.482758620689655 (again not counting your loss of determination) So that would be 12 added to each heal based on weapon dmg to upgrade thyrus to +1.

---

Check out Praqzis' link; they do a detailed analysis. Each point of MD does not add a constant amount of HP to the heal; it's a multiplier.