I know by now everyone is blaming the WAR that needs a fix and bashing on YoshiP for stating "people just don't know how to play WAR", but what, if is true?
Think about it, by now everyone thinks that WAR is a Main Tanking class for end game content and that also VIT should be his primary stat of attribution, because STR is useless and is not good for anything else besides an extra 1%~2% parry.
But, what if we actually have doing it wrong?
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WAR tanking efficiency theory
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10-01-2013, 12:40 AMCrimessWAR tanking efficiency theory
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10-01-2013, 12:41 AMCrimess
Here's my take:
If you have played as a WAR for a long time, you should know by now that the skills that the WAR have are self-healing skills and that his class is a survival class with the extra dps.
What if instead of stacking all this accesories with VIT, we go for something else like STR, Skill speed, Crit Hit, ACC, Dex. (not sure if acc is any good for war).
Wouldn't it benefit the WAR class more and make it more efficient at tanking?? Like on selfhealing, doing more damage for that extra % of self healing while faster cool downs with Skill speed wouldn't that also help on mitigation more than just stacking VIT?
Has anyone tried this?
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10-01-2013, 12:44 AMBlazn
Unfortunately the gear warriors can use and need on don't stack those stats they stack vit and parry
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10-01-2013, 12:44 AMTakiwaki
Its been done, doesnt work..
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10-01-2013, 12:46 AMHiirNoivl
Yes, I have tried VIT stacking and I recommend a more balanced number between VIT and STR. Skill speed, I studied and it takes way too much skill speed to make an appreciable difference and I don't recommend it as a primary or even secondary stat. Crit Rate Materia and accessories I highly recommend. WAR gets a substantial boost to all the Crit Rate you put on your gear. So my current build that I'm really happy with is a balanced amount of VIT and STR and substantial amounts of Crit (which depending on my gear set teeters between 409 and 446 crit). Interestingly, I also get Accuracy and Skill Speed on the same gear that I use so those stats just "come with".
The rest of becoming a WAR tank is leveling GLA and PGL for your cross class abilities and learning how to use your abilities in the best way.
To see an example of my tanking as WAR you can see it here http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodestone/character/175326/blog/252659/
So long as things stay civil I will leave the video open for comments. -
10-01-2013, 12:46 AMKenji1134
In point of fact, there are bosses who will rip off about 70-80% of your health using a special attack followed immediately by an autoattack. This % range is on a tank with 30 points in vit, and pretty much stacking as much vit as possible on their gear... so pretty much the regular tanking pieces.
If you start stacking str and det and general dps stats instead of tanking stats, then sure, you'll do more dps in CM and AK... but Titan will simply wreck you, and Coil will just roll over laughing and not even open the door for ya.
No amount of self healing is going to save you from a oneshot. That said, if you are absolutely confident in your ability to survive a massive hit + autoattack, at the highest variance of the two combined... then sure, throw on some more str and put out more threat or dps.
But there's a reason why tanks in almost all mmos have preferred stacking health and flat mitigation/defense over avoidance and self healing mods. Health and Mit are always there and always active, at endgame, hoping to block/parry/dodge, or hoping that the next hit wont kill you so you can pop your amazing 1/4 hp heal attack... just wont cut it... You may squeeze by once, twice... but 5-10-20 times... good luck. -
10-01-2013, 12:48 AMHiirNoivl
I do Titan with no problems. Trying to frighten people into poor builds does not help anyone. Stoneskin and Sacred Soil will prevent any boss from "ripping" 80% of your HP in any case.
Some people will never be convinced. The best I can do is educate folks. If you're still convinced that WAR cannot effectively tank Titan or Caddie then there's nothing I can do for you because it's already been shown multiple times to be fine and effective and not really that hard.Quote:
Originally Posted by CurlyBruce
If you watch the video, you'll see the screen hang. That's not your computer, its mine. Recording fights on my PC does this and I can't get it to stop. They tell me that it's an issue with the way my computer stores the videos and it's a shame but I can't change it.
This screen hang issue will spell a wipe in Titan or Caddie fights.
Thanks for understanding.
Fortunately, my tactics don't really change in either of those fights.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimess
Darklight is fine. Darksteel is better. You can get Crit Rate from materia on Accessories and food. you don't have to stack Crit to the heavens to be effective. But you will be more effective the more you can squeeze it in. However, the real test of a WAR tank is your "additional skills" and how well you use them. -
10-01-2013, 12:59 AMCrimess
Kenji1134 - Going full VIT wouldn't make sense I'm currently tanking Titan and I know the amount of damage that he does to me, but going full VIT seems only good for PLD as a WAR I would be just a flan with lots of HP to just to keep getting wack by him. I still haven't done Coil.
HiirNoivl build seems more reasonable with the distribution of the stats. Just having DL and AF2 gear with no slots seems really dumb to me to be honest and I feel that WAR don't have a really take on the accessories from the myth and phil store. Probably 2.1 would sort things out with more equipment drop on the other instances and been able to stack them with materia. -
10-01-2013, 01:03 AMOnisakeIt's been tried.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimess
You're forgetting something fundamental.
Better gear it intended to make you better. it raises the bar of your potential.
gear does not make you good.
If you need gear to make the class viable: there is something wrong with it. -
10-01-2013, 01:19 AMCurlyBruceGaruda isn't exactly a good fight to compel people to take your build seriously. Titan HM would have to be the bare minimum, but really showing you tanking Caduceus in Turn 1 would be ideal. Titan HM has the busters which hit for a lot but are predictable and he is busy doing other things afterwards so you have breathing room to heal back up. Caduceus hits like a truck and frequently Hoodswipes for high damage so if you're build was able to sustain through that (ie. not just your healers being awesome) it would go a long way in convincing people. Remember it's not about whether WAR is capable of completing the content, it's about efficiency/safety versus bringing a second PLD.Quote:
Originally Posted by HiirNoivl
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10-01-2013, 01:33 AMHachikoHere is the problem with this theory, and any other goofball theories (i.e. stacking dex). It completely grates against the game's design.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimess
there is something intuitive about pretty much every character. If you look at them they will get an "enhanced STAT" trait at level 6 and 14 or something. For WAR that stat is VIT. For PLD that stat is VIT. For LNC/DRG it's STR. For PGL/MNK it's STR. Etc. Etc.
If WAR was intended to stack strength primarily or that STR would be the WAR's intended strat, this type of thing would only be confusing and serve no real purpose.
Likewise, if WAR were "intended" to stack STR, then we would be able to roll on STR based accessories in dungeons at the least. But we can't. We're relegated to only being able to roll need on the VIT based accessories.
Some STR can help a WAR once they hit a certain HP threshhold, (Ideally over 7k), but it's clearly not designed to be the first place the WAR turns.
You absolutely need over 6500 hp at the very least for titan. If you step into coil you need even more than that.
Even if you were to stack STR/Crit to make your Inner Beasts a more reliable heal, it still doesn't scale as fast as monster damage does, and if you try to make it do so by stacking DPS stats, you will be at a low enough hp pool that you will die in burst from an auto attack crit and special attack. -
10-01-2013, 02:34 AMJudge_XeroGreat video. With your gear setup I bet you could almost solo heal yourself between teleports. Looking at the average damage you took between teleports (minus Slipstream)Quote:
Originally Posted by HiirNoivl
1st ~ 6200 Damage taken.
2nd ~ 11000 Damage taken
3rd ~ 11000 Damage taken
If you could time it after her 1st Slipstream per phase then you could probably drop close to a 2k-3k self heal (depending on criticals). - with both the 20% damage increase and 10% slashing resistance buffs up.
1st port - Internal Release - Second Wind - Inner Beast - Infuriate - Inner Beast (Self heals for 2.5k-3.5k depending on crits)
2nd port - Internal Release - Berserk - Inner Beast - Infuriate - Inner Beast (Self Heals for 3k-4k depending on crits)
3rd port - Internal Release - Second Wind - Inner Beast - Infuriate - Inner Beast (Self heals for 2.5k-3.5k depending on crits)
Her teleport cycle is on 60 seconds, so it would be up again after her second Slipstream. You could survive on Regen with light heals, while your healers nuke or do whatever until after Aetheral Blast. Top ups can happen between ports when the healers can't nuke anyways. -
10-01-2013, 02:42 AMHiirNoivl
Thanks for your kind words!
I want to try to keep up my Wrath V, so Double Inner Beast is saved for Dire Emergencies Only.
Buuuut I guess for Garuda if I was feeling confident in my party, I could do that if I was gonna be all fancy.
I don't have a Vid of Caddie.Quote:
Originally Posted by PiedPiper
He hits hardest at the beginning so you need to have the healers helping you a bit. SCHs Fey Illumination, + a constant rotation of defense Cool downs as well as maintaining Wrath V keep my heals out pacing the damage.
Once he splits he doesn't hit nearly as hard. -
10-01-2013, 02:52 AMPiedPiperIs there a vid of war tanking turn 1? He does wreck.Quote:
Originally Posted by CurlyBruce
I've never liked warrior, but for a (LONG) while in 1.0, it was the god tank. It happens. It shouldn't and it sucks, but for most of the game's life span only one tank has been viable. -
10-01-2013, 04:20 AMGenesiser
All vitality is dumb because all it does is allow you to have a higher hp pool, but nothing to help mitigate damage so all you do is hold hate and require much more healing. Unfortunately, all str isn't so hot either because it doesn't do a whole lot to increase the amount you heal yourself for.
The real problem though, is that they decided to design war tanks like DKs from wow, but flubbed up the self healing aspect of them. In wow, a DK has a move called death strike (similar to the warrior move) and what this move does is it heals you for 20% of the damage you have recieved for the last 5 seconds, with at least 7% of your max hit pionts. Not only does it heal you, but it also gives you a bubble that absorbs 50% of the hp that was healed. So basically it helps the healers out by recovering your hp, and and the same time it helps stabilize your incoming damage even though you don't have a shield to help block the damage.
Essentially, if they are going to copy a tank class from another game, they need to do it right. Not just rely on moves that restore hp and nothing else. It's cool that they went the route of a reactive tank, but they need to get it right not only with the move, but also (equally important) need to not lower your survivablilty by reducing your incoming heals by 15% when you do use a move that helps you tank, especially with it taking ~20 seconds to recover the stacks of wrath. -
10-01-2013, 04:26 AMKaalan
It's no secret that WAR needs a balance between survivability and offense. But even with a huge amount of gear you will still be sub par. We need a fixe.
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10-01-2013, 04:58 AMShinkyo
From a game design perspective SE should make WAR tanking class focus on other stat than VIT, at least for the sake of making it different from PLD. We're supposed to have plenty of Vit to start with and our armors raise it even more so I'm thinking points should be spent on areas we are lacking.
I understand it's not the case so yeah I'm hoping SE will fix this. But on paper, I would want WAR to be designed to focus on STR/DEX for more parry and self-healing.
PLD have innate mitigation but need to buff their HP pool, WAR have the innate HP pool and should be designed to compensate their mitigation though parry/self-heal.
Hopefully, we'll get there eventually... I'm stacking on STR/Dex/crit accessories for when that time comes ...
I love WAR, love the feeling when I take a big hit and restore it back through my own means, really didn't like tanking as a GLD (to get my WAR prerequisite) and want to be able to enjoy tanking this way. -
10-01-2013, 05:36 AMJudge_XeroLol, you have to play it fancy. When I get some time to play again, I want to do that on Demon Wall. Just tell the Healer, don't worry about healing, just nuke. Then go and recover all HP during the charge on the 2nd repel. I want to see if it can be taken out before the gnats pop.Quote:
Originally Posted by HiirNoivl
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10-01-2013, 05:43 AMHachikoPretty easy to take it out before gnats pop. But it has more to do with your HP pools and the DPS of the damage dealers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Judge_Xero
You don't even need any heals before the second repel. -
10-01-2013, 05:44 AMCurlyBruceYou shouldn't even be in Defiance for Demon Wall. You can't tank Demon Wall, he attacks random people with Murder Hole. The only time you really tank anything is the brief seconds the adds are alive for. In fact unless you get extremely unlucky and get Murder Hole'd 4-5 times in a row, Regen + Medica II is sufficient to keep everyone healed until the adds and if you kill the adds fast enough one or two Medicas will get everyone topped back off. WHM cleric stance Stone II is pretty strong and not like it's hard to switch it off should you need an emergency heal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Judge_Xero
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10-01-2013, 06:14 AMOnisakeI disagree. unless you are with a pre-made group of people you trust, you absolutely should stay in defiance.Quote:
Originally Posted by CurlyBruce
the extra HP gives you breathing room. if things go south, you can solo a good portion of demon wall. if DW is down to half health, and one gnat is killed, you can solo the remainder of the fight. a war can easily take out the remaining gnat and kill demon wall with self heals. -
10-01-2013, 06:25 AMHachikoNope. You should never be in defiance on Demon Wall unless your party members die or get knocked off.Quote:
Originally Posted by Onisake
If things go south, then you pop defiance, infuriate, and inner beast and solo the remainder of the fight.
But it's absolutely pointless to be in defiance for the first 2 repels. It's only slightly useful after gnats spawn to make you slightly easier to heal if your dps is bad. You are just slowing down your kill by being in defiance the whole time. Demon Wall wont even do enough damage to break stoneskin from a Scholar before the first repel unless you stand in the liquifies like a derp. It really isn't necessary. -
10-01-2013, 06:40 AMNinjiitstu
All VIT is the only way to go. If you start doing the math, you quickly realize that you get far more EHP out of VIT then you would out of STR or DEX ( Dex is actually higher Mitigation btw ).
That being said, there are a few exceptions. Notably when you do gear comparisons that grant you BOTH STR and DEX. Gryphonskin accessories are probably Best In Slot. Your able to meld 10 Vit onto them, and 12 Parry. So here is a comparrison to Darklight rings:
DL: 10 Vit, 12 Parry, 9 Accuracy
Gryphonskin: 9 STR, 9 Dex, 12 Accuracy, 9 Skillspeed, 10 Vit ( Level 4 + Level 2 ), 12 Parry ( 2x Level 3 ), and 1x Free Materia.
Mythology: 15 Vit, 11 Parry, 16 Accuracy
Even against Mythology, your gaining 9 str, 9 dex, 9 skillspeed, 1 parry, and 1 free materia vs 5 vit 4 accuracy. -
10-02-2013, 12:06 AMOndesvinif you are in Defiance stance at wall you are doing wrong!Quote:
Originally Posted by Judge_Xero
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10-02-2013, 12:10 AMHiirNoivl
I remove Defiance on the Demon Wall.
And whenever people start talking about VIT and EHP I just laugh because you you get far more EHP out of Wrath V than you do out of VIT thanks to Crit Self heals and 15% more healing. -
10-02-2013, 12:33 AMAmasKill... the adds?Quote:
Originally Posted by CurlyBruce
Waste of time, with or without melees.
Just do the Demon Wall without Defiance until the bees pop, gather the bees, CDs + Overpower spam to keep 'em still, and burn the wall. Whether your DPS have relics or ilvl 55 GC weapons, it's far and away the quickest and easiest way. -
10-02-2013, 12:47 AMCurlyBruceOr you could spend literally 10 seconds killing the adds and not have to worry about dodging lines and the AoE Paralyze from the adds. Also your healer can go back to nuking with the adds dead and not worry about keeping you alive because the adds hit harder than Demon Wall does.Quote:
Originally Posted by Amas
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10-02-2013, 05:00 AMCrimessGoing full VIT for the only extra 400 HP that you get?? No, Thank you. I leave VIT for my PLD, but not for my WAR. That's where also defiance comes into place to put up that HP pool up. I used to be just VIT build but I switched to STR and it has helped me more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninjiitstu
Guess also healers come into play on this not only WAR, but if you don't have a good healer we are just useless.
Let's leave DEX out of this. We should know that DEX is useless to WAR.
I'm far more concern that there is no accesories for WARS.
Either you have STR or VIT with Parry
There should more accesories with skills speed vit and str for wars. I know there is some, but acc is useless.