RAISE Improvement - Please

(Since we no longer have a "Battle System" or "Other" section, I'm putting this topic in Dungeons (since we see the problems the most here).)

To: Yoshi P and the Combat Team,

One of your main directives that you keep harping on to us in your decisions is to make this game as "stress-free" as possible, for all types of players. Currently using "Raise" (reviving someone) after someone dies is flawed and needs some adjustments:

* Please grant the person being Raised a small window of Invulnerability. When someone gets Raised, they are Animation Locked (stuck in animation) for what feels like 7-8 SECONDS, and completely vulnerable to any incoming attacks.

They cannot move, they can't dodge, they can't do anything. On more difficult fights, this usually results in the person who just Raised, being killed instantly again, without ANY chance of moving or using defensive maneuvers, etc.

I know the arguments already from the white knighters, "Just learn to get up at the right time." or "It'd be way too powerful if you had some invulnerable frames." But there are some fights that just are too punishing without it (e.g., Titan Hard after Heart, or there are Random Attacks that happen that don't follow a pattern).

Consider the Penalties Death already imbues on the player and party:

* Penalties Already In Place *

• Dead Person is unable to contribute to the fight. Their DPS/Healing/Enmity, etc. is all "zero." The entire party's fight is already slowed down because of this.

• Raised Person has Weakness for 2 Full Minutes. They are at a big disadvantage.

• Raised Person starts with a tiny fraction of their HP (maybe 20%?). They'll have to scramble and be extra careful to even stay alive at this point.

• Any Subsequent Heals to restore some HP on Raised Person is subject to Healer's CASTING Time (another penalty / delay).

• A Healer has to divert their attention away from keeping the party alive long enough to Raise (which has a long cast time (if you don't have Swiftcast, or it's on Cooldown)). The entire party could wipe just on the risk of Healer trying to raise someone.

• It takes a Huge chunk of MP away from the Healer to cast it.

• Raised Person is already stuck in a ridiculous 7-8 Second Animation, LOCKED from doing anything.

• Even after being Raised, that player has to re-acclimate themselves to the fight (making sure what attacks might be incoming, staying away to get Cures, Buffs, eat Food, get ready, etc.), and that's even more downtime (penalty).
  

• Gear Damage. Person who died sustains Gear Damage, which costs them Money to fix.

It's the most frustrating thing in many hectic battles when you're trying to Raise someone (or getting a Raise), only to get hit by an attack while you're Vulnerable and completely Animation Locked, unable to do anything. Raise -> Die -> repeat.

In some battles, like The Binding Coil of Bahamut, Caduceus, we've seen examples where just as someone was Raised (stuck in animation), Caduceus spits its Acid Attack (which is RANDOM as to where it spits (so no "learn the pattern"-answer is going to solve that)) and the Raising person dies immediately (not even able to move or do anything about it). http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/i...lies/frown.png

Yoshi P, you remove Animation Lock from all Weaponskills and make attacks look silly at times (insta-moving and casting / fighting), but it's for Gameplay and relieving "stress" as you say. Yet you keep Animation Lock for Raise?!

A person being Raised can be hit by any incoming Attacks from Enemies, but *can't* be affected by your own helpful Party Members? (e.g., Healer trying to cast a Stoneskin or Heal you mid-Raise)?! How is this fair?

It's inconsistent and arbitrary.

Finally, if nothing else, you say you want this game as "stress-free" as possible. The Raise mechanic is a huge source of frustration. There's a difference between "learning when to get up" (strategy), and "that was just cheap / unfair" (getting hit by additional attacks that can be random in a fight), and dying instantly before you can even do anything.

There's no "exploit" if you added a few frames of Invulnerability when you Raised. Having an entire party, let's say, try dying before a Primal's 2 Hour and Raising after is worthless with all the time it takes to cast and raise everyone, let alone all the other penalties mentioned above.

Please improve Raise / Vulnerability situation.

Thanks!

Seconded +1

Yea, I agree. The animation lock is the most frustrating part of raise mainly because it is almost impossible to judge it.

Maybe if we were at least able to heal or protect that person during the animation would help, but I don't think spells even land during it. (not sure if I am remembering this correctly.)

I'd like a Raise change.

I'd also like to know how you got a 4,300 character post into a system that rejects submissions over 1k characters. :)

I agree. At this point in time, Raise is almost useless except for strong DPS check bosses like Demon Wall or Titan. If someone drops in a fight, it is not even worth raising them because the risk of them dying before getting back in the fight is too great and the costs of the raise are too high.

The whole raise sistem starting up from the accept it or not pop up is ridiculous.

At least when in party it should be inmediate and shoul made the character invulnerable for a short time to at least put himself in a semi-secure situtation.

I would like this change too. Or at the very least let the raised person be able to benifit from a heal


You can get pass the 1000 char limit by going and editing your post. Just cut out what was above the limit, post it, edit it , paste in the rest

Offtopic really, but at least thers an in combat raise, they could have been like many other games and forced one to be "out of combat" in order too use it, i know in wow for example theres druids battle res, and proactive raising like warlocks soul stones/ But they implemented long cd to avoid abuse. Makes the importance of all classes and roles playing correctly important. Atm im seeing so what dps dies raise and u still finish, but tank or heals does and its a certain wipe. If lacking one dps means fail too them dps would be more forced to play with care

Another quirk about raising someone is being unable to heal the person until a certain amount of time has passed. Should SE add a dungeon similar to AV from 1.0 with it's poison rooms, the raised person will pretty much die immediately due to the lack of a heal to help them survive the poison.

I came into this post thinking I was going to disagree with the OP, but I can not disagree with anything said here.

It'd be nice to get an update on this by Patch 2.1.

I think Raise is fine. It adds an extra dimension to encounters; knowing when you can and can't accept a Raise.
Changing this would also make it trivial to recover from a lot of mistakes and make many encounters too easy.

For example, a group with SMN/WHM/SCH can already instantly resurrect at basically all times.

Rezzing is fine.

You could always, you know, not die.

As a WHM, I totally agree with OP.

Raise is really scary now. To just raise a person to see them die due to animation lock is horrible and most of the time stupid.

I totally agree the when in animation lock, the person be invulnerable.

I don't agree with making the raised character immune to damage. Just get rid of the animation lock and let them move and dodge like everyone else.

I think it's fine right now. Most deaths are the fault of the player to begin with.

1) Don't raise them in a place they could take damage(rezzing before a landslide on Titan is just fine, a smart person can still rez on that fight just fine)

2) Raising someone should stress the raid a little, and if your healers let tanks die to swiftcast+rez someone....stop tunneling, a quick call out I got him is fine. There is no fight where 1 healer can't solo heal a tank just fine, or a tank can invuln while a rez goes off. There could be many ways to get one off, bottom line is, you should be able to overcome someone dying and work with it.

3) It's a mistake on the raid, and adding the mana cost + time to rez is dangerous, so it's a risk to rez them; and I like that. Just my opinion though, good day.

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Originally Posted by Yuufarlc

Offtopic really, but at least thers an in combat raise, they could have been like many other games and forced one to be "out of combat" in order too use it, i know in wow for example theres druids battle res, and proactive raising like warlocks soul stones/ But they implemented long cd to avoid abuse. Makes the importance of all classes and roles playing correctly important. Atm im seeing so what dps dies raise and u still finish, but tank or heals does and its a certain wipe. If lacking one dps means fail too them dps would be more forced to play with care

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This here though is flawed logic. Druid Brez costs nothing comparied to Raise/Resurrection and Soul Stone Brez costs nothing but the quick cast, DK's brez also is nothing cost wise compaired to here. Also they pop instantly and are healable with a 1sec invulnerability from enemy attack. As to "one dps" how about when your in dungeons as a 4-man party? 1 dps is very bad. 1 tank is worse in either situation. What if the other healer just dropped? if this was wow, we wouldnt need to ask this about the raise mechanic.


as to the above post, you realize they meant us to use battle rez as BOTH healers get it right? Arcanist gets it as default. the problem is, the mechanic is flawed despite the desire to have it in the player toolset. As a new game, they have to learn what works and what doesnt. Healers taking THM for Swiftcast or not, Raise/Resurrection is mechanically flawed as a brez

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Originally Posted by Deedlit

You could always, you know, not die.

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Please remember this statement when you're running BCoB.

I think this is the most valid argument in the OP: A person being Raised can be hit by any incoming Attacks from Enemies, but *can't* be affected by your own helpful Party Members? (e.g., Healer trying to cast a Stoneskin or Heal you mid-Raise)?! How is this fair?

Okay, and I would also like to point out that although you seem to be vulnerable to damage- heals don't work during the animation or for about 4 seconds AFTER.

Not nice.

Prior post beat me to it =P I get so annoyed healing someone that is running around after a raise, only to have it bounce back on me... but they can certainly take damage!!

I had mentioned in another thread regarding this topic, we really don't know if the delay is actually intended or not. I like the way it is, it adds a little tactic to revive, but the delay in time from when I see the persons health bar in the group window and the time I can heal them "about 3 seconds" sucks. It's doesn't suck because I have to wait 3 seconds, it sucks because there is no indication of when this expires.

So I revive guy, I see the animation and he is standing there locked in place, but I can see his health bar as being alive. The real kicker is you have to "start" casting the heal "after" they are able to move. I have tried to time it and have actually seen a heal go off where I had the player targeted, the player is moving, my heal is still casting, but when it lands it still hits me because I didn't start the cast when they could move , or this timer has expired.

I am not asking for the ability to be changed, what I would like though is some interface indicator on the group window that lets me know I can heal that person, only because seeing their health bar with health in it does not suit that purpose like other games. Like make the players health bar red until I can heal them or something and I am a happy WHM.

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Originally Posted by Deedlit

You could always, you know, not die.

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Honestly, this.
I can see how it can be annoying with pick up groups, because strangers make mistakes.
But if you die, you screwed up. Don't beg for a get out of jail free card, like you're entitled to it.
The penalties are fine, don't just mindlessly press "accept" and pray you don't die again.
Or, you know, don't die in the first place.

Healers should definitely be allowed to heal the players that they are resurrecting, but I would never remove the animation lock for it since it definitely adds that extra dimension of timing to the game. Removing it would definitely make it so that the developers would have to restrict in-battle resurrection in order to maintain difficulty in certain boss fights.

Agreed.

Either remove the entire animation and let them pop up and be mobile instantly. Or make movement cancel out the animation.

Or if we want the animation; for immersion and aesthetics - then grant them immunity like OP said. This on so many levels.

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You can always make the "Don't die" argument but accidents happen, lag happens, and something can go wrong in which case it was unavoidable. But there is also the argument that combat raise is there for a reason. If we couldn't save the fight by raising in combat; then it would make sense - not to die. But the utility is there and it should be resourceful instead of painful.

I forget which game does this but when you are revived; you come back with 3 seconds of invulnerability and stealth. And the buff is described as "Your body is being rebuilt into this realm" or something.

One this is for sure, if you cannot move at all when an AOE or Direct attack hits, you shouldn't be punished for it. You raised, the plume wasn't there. But then it shows up in the middle of the animation and there's nothing you can do.

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Originally Posted by elementxstyle

But there is also the argument that combat raise is there for a reason. The utility is there and it should be resourceful instead of painful.

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Yes it is there, and it is resourceful. But it's not a get out of jail free card. God forbid you have to think about where and when you ress.

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Originally Posted by elementxstyle

You raised, the plume wasn't there. But then it shows up in the middle of the animation and there's nothing you can do.

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Let's not pretend like it's hard to successfully raise. Healers can move away from the group and get a safe raise.
Plumes? Wait till they're about to explode and raise. Landslide over there? I can raise! Bombs just went off? Raise. Granite Gaol? Feel free to raise.
Please don't say "it shows up and there's nothing you can do". That's just you pressing accept and praying you won't get hit, when what you should be doing is time it and make sure you don't get hit.