<DEV> request to remove dLVL

Request to remove dLVL altogether from any current or future formulas.

As has been stated in literally hundreds of threads on many different sites and many times here in this forum the dLVL calculation kills the dmg formulas. Increasing STR from 80-120 increases my LNC dmg by 3-4 points... This is absurd it basically says I could have the best gear or go into a fight naked and it would be less then a 3-4 point dmg swing. What is my motivation to strive for excellence why work toward having proper gear let alone anything special from an NM drop? This also affects crafting in the same manner why work for a dodore doublet when you can just do it naked and it has almost the same outcome.

I realize that yoshi himself has said he knows the in game calculations are way to complicated and require "super computers" to keep track of but I want to make sure the main root of the problem is taken care of in the process. dLVL in dmg calculations is the fastest root to water down your MMO experience. It undermines quality gear choices and even worse downplays the importance of every skill used in battle.

I truly hope they do this when 1.18 comes out with battle revamps. As of now with the current system simply removing it would probably make us able to kill just about anything easily because enemies' main source of damage would be taken away. I hope Yoshi-P has realized how we feel when keeping gear up-to-date has minimal consequences.

dlevel has been in formulas since ffxi. and id really like to see what people tested that going 0 to 120 strength had no effect on a monster of equal or close level.
im not saying the formulas are perfect, but to think that dlevel is the sole cause is foolish

Its pretty simple to test? did you even read what I wrote? I went from 80-120 and my dmg raised between a 3-4 point avg per attack. Considering its impossible to get 40 points of STR from gear (maybe 20-30 max) its less then a 3-4 point dmg change going from naked to fully HQ'd in optimal gear.

Also why would you test on an equal lvl monster? Right now if you go out and fight an equal rank monster even doing nothing but clicking 1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1 you stand zero chance of dying. Testing should not be done on monsters that play no impact on your adventure, they should be done on the content that best challenges you along the way and right now even rank is not that type of content.

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Originally Posted by tachikoma

Its pretty simple to test? did you even read what I wrote? I went from 80-120 and my dmg raised between a 3-4 point avg per attack. Considering its impossible to get 40 points of STR from gear (maybe 20-30 max) its less then a 3-4 point dmg change going from naked to fully HQ'd in optimal gear.

Also why would you test on an equal lvl monster? Right now if you go out and fight an equal rank monster even doing nothing but clicking 1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1 you stand zero chance of dying. Testing should not be done on monsters that play no impact on your adventure, they should be done on the content that best challenges you along the way and right now even rank is not that type of content.

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what were you fighting, what level was it, what level were you. so you are saying you were testing on monster 10 levels higher than you? keep in mind that all stats effects are capped by your level, so your level is important for these tests, point blank if a low level player has too much of any stats, he will stop seeing the benefit.

Basically the full data is important in understanding any equation.

I used both Plumed Walnut makuthingy +1 and Fametounge on dodore once, both were in the same exact damage range. Rank vs other rank seems to be the main determiner in anything that goes on in this game right now.

I'll try with a bronze dagger next time i go out.

I support nerfing dLvl, or the dominance which level plays in determining output. It's a copout way to control the game from a min-maxer versus casual player perspective to make level determine over 90% of your effectiveness.

The developers should take it upon themselves to create a high-caliber stat system, and not a safe, sesame street one. They took the easy way out of hard problems, and now they're paying for it because the stat system is completely impotent. With no incentives to improve your characters, no one feels any pride in their MMO characters any more.

They don't have to remove it altogether. I think in XI level may not have even been a factor into your output at all. But certainly it should be nerfed so that the new battle system stats matter.

I think it will be. It's just a matter of verbalizing our consent for it.

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Originally Posted by Reika

I used both Plumed Walnut makuthingy +1 and Fametounge on dodore once, both were in the same exact damage range. Rank vs other rank seems to be the main determiner in anything that goes on in this game right now.

I'll try with a bronze dagger next time i go out.

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Weathered bow & warped arrows do the exact same dmg with the exact same acc on Ureus/Goblin nm as a crab bow + silver arrows.

Agree, SE you have to do something about the lack of stat's making a difference to battle.

People plays these games to progress and strengthen their characters and wanting to get the next piece of gear, if you make that gear useless then you make the game worthless and the reason for playing is very limited.

Fix it now or you will forever have a problem on your hands.

I agree completely. dLVL just trumps everything else in the current damage formula and makes it so that its the biggest factor in play. Going from bronze gear to iron gear means absolutely nothing but going from Rank 49 to 50 on Dodore is a WORLD of difference.

This HAS to change. Especially if they want stats to matter. Currently you can fight naked with a Lv1 weapon and still perform well.

I know its cool to go out and hit a rodent for 5k damage but enough is enough.

Stats Totaly revamped I vote yes.

Yes I know I'm necro-bumping.

Thing is stats where revamped but Dlvl is still broken when it comes to blocking and evading with bosses.

I'm very much of the opinion that base stats need to be converted over to armour. (Meaning a smaller base stat pool and bigger stats bonuses from gear.)

Obviously the way evading and blocking needs to be revised also.

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Originally Posted by Jinko

Yes I know I'm necro-bumping.

Thing is stats where revamped but Dlvl is still broken when it comes to blocking and evading with bosses.

I'm very much of the opinion that base stats need to be converted over to armour. (Meaning a smaller base stat pool and bigger stats bonuses from gear.)

Obviously the way evading and blocking needs to be revised also.

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I agree that dLevel still plays far too major of a role in some calculations. It's much better than it used to be, at least.

I agree too.

The way stats calculate for classes is atrocious, this moreso effects Disciples of War, Disciples of Magic are working just fine.

I completely agree, for the fifth time remove dLVL. Enemies of high level should be difficult to engage and beat, not impossible.

When your character battles, you gain experience. Experience is simply learning. When you learn, your body doesn't necessarily get more powerful, you learn new more powerful skills and you learn how to use your old skills more effectively.

It would not make sense for a level 30 character with = attributes to a level 50 character to deal similar damage. The level 50 character should have some advantage. But a level 30 character with a significant advantage in attributes should be able to eventually surpass the weaker level 50 character.

So, while I agree that dlvl might be annoying, there would still be something needed to account for the actual progression experience and levels. You could push it into a modifier for our skills themselves, and then force only attributes to make a difference. But in there is no net change.

What I do agree with whole-heartedly, is making attributes play a more visible and significant role in the game; and, for the actual contribution and effects of attributes to be clearly identifiable.

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Originally Posted by Roaran

So, while I agree that dlvl might be annoying, there would still be something needed to account for the actual progression experience and levels. You could push it into a modifier for our skills themselves, and then force only attributes to make a difference. But in there is no net change.

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This is the problem:
http://i.imgbox.com/aablpTbH.png

Graph taken from Kaeko's blog. I assume he's not going to wish me dead for posting it here.

Against a L58 enemy the def stat does almost nothing until you get way past 1000 defense, a number nobody can reach even temporarily as far as I know. This is why you can tank Ifrit with WHM just fine if your HP pool is sufficient. The paper thin defense of WHM just doesn't matter nearly as much as you'd imagine.

Also, the block, evade and parry stats are practically meaningless against Ifrit as the proc rates are probably <1% regardless of what you're wearing.

edit: This post is flawed. Read Kaeko's reply below.

To clarify, that graph is specific to Ifrit only. It does not represent all R58 mobs, and definitely not any normal R58 mob.

The balance of that curve is fundamentally based on the mob's ATTACK POWER, and NOT their dLVL. Ifrit is an NM that has an extremely high attack over most R58 mobs, hence it takes more DEF to reach the supposed damage floor. This is why the curve looks so harsh. Increasing dLVL actually makes the curve LESS HARSH because the per-point decrease in damage taken for each point of defense increases with dLVL. With this in mind, dLVL actually helps you reach the damage floor. Again, it is the ATK of the mob that causes that curve to look so daunting.

There are a number of arguments you can make for or against dLVL, but that defensive efficiency curve would probably not be the best example to cite. I think you would make better cases for critical potency maybe. I'm usually very hesitant to post my opinion of mechanics like this because the answers are very complex, but I thought I'd come in here to clarify the actual mechanic for you guys since it's fairly confusing. But for the record, I'm a huge fan of dLVL.

yay Kaeko, I figured if I posted somethin along those lines I'd be called a troll for my effort. Its like the differences pointed out for MEVA when comparing ifrit to a rank 59 eyeball. They're not even in the same league.

That said, people only care about how things do on bosses, everything else "doesn't matter".

I stand corrected.

What people want is for the work and effort the put into acquiring gear and materia for their character to have purpose or meaning. There is a negative psychological impact when you spend tens of millions of gil gearing out your tank character for battles, and you see that a character who has not spent such effort in their character capable of accomplishing the same feat with seemingly no difference in difficulty.

It is especially disheartening to see another class not designed for tanking, but instead to be a physically vulnerable class perform similarly.

For Ifrit specifically, I imagine the battle team was trying to make ifrit more powerful simply by increasing his Attack power. In doing so they were operating under the goal of making the battle more difficult. Most likely they did not spend much time considering the effect of the increased attack power, and how the equation that determines damage output would effect other classes.

In reality, the problem we're dealing with is much harder to fix than simply removing dlvl. It requires a much more sophisticated approach from the battle and battle-related teams.

If perhaps HP was reduced, it may not be necessary for a monster like Ifrit to have so much Attack, and thus the effect of Defense on Incoming Damage could be allowed to increase for that specific battle. But reduced HP also has effects on other parts of the game as well. I think Yoshi needs to be told to get a handle on this situation soon, to know that we want Stats to matter (not just some - we want choices to be based on strategy, not simply knowing that X stat is better than Y stat, so stack X stat). Having this addressed by 2.0 should be a priority otherwise we will continue to have issues with each battle that is added.

I agree it needs to be fixed by 2.0, these games generally revolve around getting the latest best in slot item, but when stats have very diminishing returns it makes getting those items pointless.

Hopefully 2.0 is using a completely difference way in calculations stats.

hoping so too

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Originally Posted by Kaeko

To clarify, that graph is specific to Ifrit only. It does not represent all R58 mobs, and definitely not any normal R58 mob.

The balance of that curve is fundamentally based on the mob's ATTACK POWER, and NOT their dLVL. Ifrit is an NM that has an extremely high attack over most R58 mobs, hence it takes more DEF to reach the supposed damage floor. This is why the curve looks so harsh. Increasing dLVL actually makes the curve LESS HARSH because the per-point decrease in damage taken for each point of defense increases with dLVL. With this in mind, dLVL actually helps you reach the damage floor. Again, it is the ATK of the mob that causes that curve to look so daunting.

There are a number of arguments you can make for or against dLVL, but that defensive efficiency curve would probably not be the best example to cite. I think you would make better cases for critical potency maybe. I'm usually very hesitant to post my opinion of mechanics like this because the answers are very complex, but I thought I'd come in here to clarify the actual mechanic for you guys since it's fairly confusing. But for the record, I'm a huge fan of dLVL.

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whether it is down to dlvl or atk or whatever mechanic i would like to see a larger range that stats make...

even if it is giving gear much higher stats.. allthough im inclined to believe the problem is much more fundamental (see dlvl).

i can solo a R55 sphene doblin easily but get my ass kicked by a R59 and i miss every attack.. i doubt it would be any different with no gear on or the best gear in the game... this leads me to believe there HAS to be a problem with dlvl.

To break from the Ifrit idea, and even NMs which are also "tuned" to be more difficult than equally leveled mobs.

Find yourself on a level 40 job, now w/o changing gear between steps:
Let a lvl 52 mob hit ya
Switch to a 45 job same mob hitting you
then to a 50 job w/ the same mob
Always in the same gear, you change in stats should be minimal.
See how much impact dLvl still has even now.

I missed a step in this during this process but when a friend and I were doing leves we set 52 as our target lvl
went out I was 42PLD, I got nailed for upwards of 1k/hit.
Switched to MNK50 avg. hit was ~80
My def didn't change all that much what w/ MNK being in not uber def gear and PLD having +vit & hi def gear. I'd check it but I'm at work and can't.
Either way, 8 levels was the difference between being nearly 2shotted on PLD and almost completely ignoring the dmg I was taking on MNK, I only took into acct AAs since my PLD couldn't survive to experience a WS but I had PLD buffs up during it.
I hope this shield mechanics change helps more than a little.