[dev1033] Armory System, Class Names, and the Lore

I would like to post my opinion on the suggested change of class names.

I don't believe its necessary.

The armory system is unique, and different to anything else out there.

The class names make sense, and represent what they are very well. The Gladiator uses a sword and shield, clearly he is a tank. the Archer is obviously a ranged damage dealer, and a Marauder is clearly a melee damage dealer. The other classes are just as straight forward. Anyone who has played a couple of different MMO's or read a few fantasy novels in their time should have no problem working the classes out.

This is not Final Fantasy XI, this is Final Fantasy XIV. It is familiar, but different. Don't make it a clone.

Each Class belonging to its own guild has been developed in the lore and I really like Eorzea as it is presented. It has its own feel. I also can't wait to see what is planed for future updates. a Musketeer class? Yes please!!

Concerning uniqueness across the classes, go ahead and restrict some more of the abilities from being used cross class. you will then have a more general idea of what abilities that gladiator is sitting on, and can therefore have somewhat of an expectation of what he can do. The ability to mix it up should not be removed completely though as it allows players to tailor their gaming experience somewhat.

If you agree please sound off below to show support for the names as they are.

Thanks,

I like the armory system as a whole. I don't even see the need of any changes bigger than a few tweaks.

But i believe the name change part will not happen anymore since the classic classes already were stated to be some kind of advanced job system that will be built over armory system...so i believe these current classes are, pretty much, safe.

About the abilities, its perfectly balanced IMO. I don't see why changing it...IMO it was stupid at FFXI you "forgetting" how to cast refresh because you changed clothes...maybe our new had was too tight... lol

In this game we have the affinity system exactly to reflect this...once you learn something you do learn something...you might not be able to use the skill properly with your current class (like trying to use slashing skills with a wand...cutting people with a branch does is hard to do!) or sometimes impossible (which is fair enough. IMO "signature moves" of each class need to be exclusive), but this does not mean the character forgot the skill.

I love the way here you have one character than know several classes (which reminds me alot the FFT serie system) instead of FFXI's job system that you actually had "multiple characters" in one, being one exclusive for each class.

Thumbs up for armory system and game uniqueness!

Final Fantasy XI is not the only FF games with jobs like Monk, Samurai, White Mage, etc. It isn't as if they have to get rid of the current FFXIV classes to add the traditional FF jobs (Though I really wonder how they'd do it considering they just decided to throw a massive random assortment of abilities/spells into single classes *cough* CONJURER). I'm all for uniqueness when it works well, but right now it doesn't. Is a name really that important anyway? Would you be upset if they named a new class bard instead of instrumentalist?

They need to make it so that spells are A LOT more efficient on the original class than they are on another class (which, if I remember, is what the affinity system is for but it's not doing too much right now). One of the best and easiest ways to do this, in my opinion, would be to lower the bases on all skills and change how they scale with stats...so that speccing into INT/MND/PIE will give you visible changes to spell damage/healing with every little bit (even with +30 in my INT, I barely get something like a 20-30 damage increase in my THM spells).

This way skills aren't restricted by use but by effectiveness.

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Originally Posted by Demacia

Final Fantasy XI is not the only FF games with jobs like Monk, Samurai, White Mage, etc. It isn't as if they have to get rid of the current FFXIV classes to add the traditional FF jobs (Though I really wonder how they'd do it considering they just decided to throw a massive random assortment of abilities/spells into single classes *cough* CONJURER). I'm all for uniqueness when it works well, but right now it doesn't. Is a name really that important anyway? Would you be upset if they named a new class bard instead of instrumentalist?

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I think the names are important. Like I said in my original post. It is more to do with the feel of Eorxea, and the Lore that we have seen and read up to now.

Whats wrong with a class called Instrumentalist, or Musician for that matter that has a primary hand weapon/tool of a musical instrument?

Or, for that matter, how about a two weapon fighting guild for Fencers? Rapier / Stilleto combination?

The weapon based armory has so much potential.

Embrace it. Don't clamor for names to be changed, just because they are not the same as the ones in FF XI.

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Originally Posted by Lienn

But i believe the name change part will not happen anymore since the classic classes already were stated to be some kind of advanced job system that will be built over armory system...so i believe these current classes are, pretty much, safe.

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I don't believe a band aid job system on top of what we already have is needed either, but don't get me started on that.

Here ya Go.

http://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/2011/04...ditional-jobs/

I still want them to implement the classic Job Names but as their own system which is what they appear to be doing based on Letter 8.

Malifor. I'd at least like to see them implement the Job System as a way to establish paths for people who have trouble distinguishing themselves on their own.

IE. Jobs are just title that have say 10 job levels, and each job level grants 1 trait or skill that is specific to that Job. (White Mage = Benediction, Thief = Steal, Etc.)

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Originally Posted by SuzakuCMX

They need to make it so that spells are A LOT more efficient on the original class than they are on another class (which, if I remember, is what the affinity system is for but it's not doing too much right now). One of the best and easiest ways to do this, in my opinion, would be to lower the bases on all skills and change how they scale with stats...so that speccing into INT/MND/PIE will give you visible changes to spell damage/healing with every little bit (even with +30 in my INT, I barely get something like a 20-30 damage increase in my THM spells).

This way skills aren't restricted by use but by effectiveness.

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100% agreed. And, in line with that give us more gear that is "Requires: Gladiator" and the like to help provide those stat bonuses and make it obvious what role you are filling. If someone is running around in the Tanking Gladiator gear, then its obvious what role they want to fill.

Mind you I already think the roles that each class is designed for is pretty clear if you read the FFXIV website, or even have any familiarty with MMO's.

I strongly agree with the OP. In comparison FFXI's classes weren't neatly integrated into the setting with a few exceptions(eg BLU).

Hmmm, to me Gladiator sound more like someone who routinely participate in duel rather than someone who protect the team, that would be more like guard or sentinel.

Conjurer sound like someone who summon things, like conjure up food out of thin air rather than someone who throw fire at people.

Marauder to me sound like someone who roam around looking for things (also remind me of Harry Potter so maybe they should be shapeshifting mages?)

Thaumaturage (however you spell that) have no meaning to me at all.

The problem isn't with the name however, but with the fact that whichever class i play, I use basically the same skill set, the only different when i play various class is that some skill have longer recast time.

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Originally Posted by MarkH

Hmmm, to me Gladiator sound more like someone who routinely participate in duel rather than someone who protect the team, that would be more like guard or sentinel.

Conjurer sound like someone who summon things, like conjure up food out of thin air rather than someone who throw fire at people.

Marauder to me sound like someone who roam around looking for things (also remind me of Harry Potter so maybe they should be shapeshifting mages?)

Thaumaturage (however you spell that) have no meaning to me at all.

The problem isn't with the name however, but with the fact that whichever class i play, I use basically the same skill set, the only different when i play various class is that some skill have longer recast time.

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Gladiator is litterally latin for "Sword User" the Japanese name for Gladiator is actuall "Sword Arts Professional" they are not really meant to be thought of in the same vein as something like "Hunter" from other MMO's where its someone who uses ranged weapons, traps, and maybe pets.

Also Marauder is a French word used to describe the Axe wielding Franks and their Francescas.

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Originally Posted by MarkH

Hmmm, to me Gladiator sound more like someone who routinely participate in duel rather than someone who protect the team, that would be more like guard or sentinel.

Conjurer sound like someone who summon things, like conjure up food out of thin air rather than someone who throw fire at people.

Marauder to me sound like someone who roam around looking for things (also remind me of Harry Potter so maybe they should be shapeshifting mages?)

Thaumaturage (however you spell that) have no meaning to me at all.

The problem isn't with the name however, but with the fact that whichever class i play, I use basically the same skill set, the only different when i play various class is that some skill have longer recast time.

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Taken from Dictionary.com

Conjure
1. to affect or influence by or as if by invocation or spell.
2. to effect, produce, bring, etc., by or as by magic: to conjure a miracle.

Maraud
1. to roam or go around in quest of plunder; make a raid for
Origin: French marauder, derivative of maraud rogue, vagabond, Middle French, perhaps identical with dial. maraud tomcat, of expressive orig.

They sound like pirates, which is what they look like and are based on in-game...

Thaumaturge
1. a worker of wonders or miracles; magician.

SE can't really be faulted for the ignorance of its fanbase.

EDIT: And here's Gladiator

1. (in ancient Rome) a person, often a slave or captive, who was armed with a sword or other weapon and compelled to fight to the death in a public arena against another person or a wild animal, for the entertainment of the spectators.
2. a person who engages in a fight or controversy.
3. a prizefighter.

I think the class names do need to be changed. The OP mentions this isn't FFXI but XIV and that's true but those jobs names were not for XI they were Final Fantasy jobs that started in the beginning of the franchise. Those jobs(and the abilities that go with them) have been present in every single FF. Even the games that didn't have the jobs themselves like Final Fantasy VIII still had hints of them in there.(Abilities were still named the same as they were from the jobs they came from and Quistis Limit break was being a Blue Mage).

Those jobs and their names are part of what makes Final Fantasy Final Fantasy and it's that reason I think they should rename the classes and many of the abilities to be more in line with the rest of the franchise.

I think the problem with classes and their names comes from how people are diversifing themselves. For example, if I wanna be a mage that uses a sword my class is gonna be a Gladiator but I'm gonna have all mage skills equiped. This will create problems with what way you as a player play and how people want you to play as a class. Like being invited to tank but being a mage gladaitor you dont want to tank. The problem in the system is partially names and the rest how us players assign battle roles. I think this could be fixed very simply by not tying weapons to classes but skills. Although they should implement away that using certain weapons are more benefical for some roles(like mages using staffs do more dmg on magic then ones using weapons). This would also open benefits of more freedom for the players. An idea came to mind that you learn all skills from the guilds(like cure would be from conjurer guild and such) and u purchase them with guild points. Althought guildpoints quests would have to be redone like so that you earn guildpoints that can be spent at all guilds, and the level these quests are available are like lvl 1.

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Originally Posted by Trigger

I think the problem with classes and their names comes from how people are diversifing themselves. For example, if I wanna be a mage that uses a sword my class is gonna be a Gladiator but I'm gonna have all mage skills equiped. This will create problems with what way you as a player play and how people want you to play as a class. Like being invited to tank but being a mage gladaitor you dont want to tank. The problem in the system is partially names and the rest how us players assign battle roles. I think this could be fixed very simply by not tying weapons to classes but skills. Although they should implement away that using certain weapons are more benefical for some roles(like mages using staffs do more dmg on magic then ones using weapons). This would also open benefits of more freedom for the players. An idea came to mind that you learn all skills from the guilds(like cure would be from conjurer guild and such) and u purchase them with guild points. Althought guildpoints quests would have to be redone like so that you earn guildpoints that can be spent at all guilds, and the level these quests are available are like lvl 1.

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explain how you can be a mage that heals the party playing as a gladiator when you do not have the ability to cast any aoe spells at all including cures. you also have close to half the mp with no exaultation nor tranquility to recharge mp. you cannot butt an entire party since you cannot cast aoe buffs. instead of casting a cure III for 700 hp as a gla you heal for 400. you also have twice the recast time on spells.

that's just a few points as to why they already have restrictions on being able to do this kind of thing and isn't that what you already said you wanted? i thought restrictions to use other class abilities on a different class was the thing needed. the key is they are already there.

if one have to look those up, it isn't any better than knight for tank or white mage for healer. Gladiator doesn't scream Tank for me as much as Marauder dosen't scream DD (sound more like Thief actually). THM and CON just say mages.

The OP said that to him Gladiator clearly mean tank, I'm just saying that to me that is not the case. One doesn't have to look up the word gladiator to realise that it come from gladius and mean people who fight to entertain, but that doesn't seem to very clearly indicate "tank", definitely not any clearer than knight.

and like i said before, name isn't what is important, it's the fact that any of my DoW play with basically the same skill set, when i switch from GLA to LNC, i simply switch out Cover for Speed Surge and Phalanx for Doom Spike.

When i switch from THM to CON... i switch nothing at all.

I think you guys are still falling into the trap of confusing Jobs with Classes. these Weapon Classes are not supposed to be synonymous with the Traditional Jobs of Past Final Fantasy's. You can't compare them. The US Localization team gave them flamboyant names to make them sound less simple, but in reality they should have kept the Japanese names of things like "Sword User" "Lance User" "Fist User" "Bow User" and "Axe User" I think less people would be falling into this nomenclature trap if they had.

Litterally they built the game to play like FFXI if FFXI had no jobs and just had its weapons and skills were learned from the weapons as well.

Hopefully the Job System will remove some of the frustrations players are having and make the Armoury system make more sense to the people who are still stuck in the trap of what each class is "Supposed" to be when each class is just supposed to be a weapon.

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Originally Posted by Illy

I think the class names do need to be changed. The OP mentions this isn't FFXI but XIV and that's true but those jobs names were not for XI they were Final Fantasy jobs that started in the beginning of the franchise. Those jobs(and the abilities that go with them) have been present in every single FF. Even the games that didn't have the jobs themselves like Final Fantasy VIII still had hints of them in there.(Abilities were still named the same as they were from the jobs they came from and Quistis Limit break was being a Blue Mage).

Those jobs and their names are part of what makes Final Fantasy Final Fantasy and it's that reason I think they should rename the classes and many of the abilities to be more in line with the rest of the franchise.

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I disagree...Final Fantasy is a franchise that mixes both fantasy and scifi elements to make an RPG experience unlike any other out there...Class names do not make the game, like you said Not FF7, 8, 10, 12 used the class names...it was obvious what their roles in the party was in the beginning, but not a single class name was assigned and they were all great games.

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Originally Posted by Cairdeas

I think you guys are still falling into the trap of confusing Jobs with Classes. these Weapon Classes are not supposed to be synonymous with the Traditional Jobs of Past Final Fantasy's. You can't compare them. The US Localization team gave them flamboyant names to make them sound less simple, but in reality they should have kept the Japanese names of things like "Sword User" "Lance User" "Fist User" "Bow User" and "Axe User" I think less people would be falling into this nomenclature trap if they had.

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I agree, to me this still feels like a Final Fantasy game, and if they add the Job system with traditional names, awesome, it adds a new and deeper element to the game that makes it that much cooler and customizable.

Is there something so wrong with accepting the names that have, is there something wrong with saying a gladiator is a melee job that specializes in swords and belongs to the disciple o war class in the armory system...I like the names that SE decided to use, it gives XIV its own unique spin and flair on its traditional franchise. I'll admit that it is less than perfect, but I see no need for some of the drastic changes that other people are suggesting/insisting for the game. But hey this is just my opinion.

I had high hopes for this game and would like to keep that hope. However it is hard with how the launch of this game has gone thus far. The class names just don't feel like Final Fantasy whether or not they had class titles in every past FF or not. Taking out the titles that most FF titles have had takes a part of Final Fantasy out of it for me. It would be like taking chocobo's out of the game and putting in horses or taking out Mogs and putting in fairys. If your going to do that then call it something else besides Final Fantasy.

If it isn't broken don't fix it...I loved XI's Job System I thought it was great and you had alot of different jobs to play XIV just seems like it lacks alot of variety. While you have the ability to use different abilities from other classes you are still gimped. No matter what everyone will disagree on this topic some people love change and want something different every time. I'm one of the fans who likes more of the same so it feels familiar. I love Final Fantasy for all the past games and want future games to follow suit if I wanted to play another RPG without chocobos, summoners, red mage, black mage, dragoons and any other job names from past FF's then I would play another RPG or MMO to change it up.

I haven't read any of the past comments.. However I'll post my thoughts:

Yoshida spoke a few words in a past letter on the "Job System" - Not to be confused with the Armory System - and if I'm right, and I don't believe I'm reaching in saying this, then I think the Class name changes are going to be integral in the future shaping of classes.

For example.

Marauder becomes Warrior.

Warrior can progress down several paths as they progress.. Maybe at level 50.. I don't know, but maybe Warrior can then progress INTO Marauder as an advanced class. Gaining access to an exclusive and different skill set that Warrior wouldn't have.

Changing the name of the class is purely for identification, and for the fans. I think the current jobs in XIV are unique enough to hold their own names, alternatively if they were changed, I wouldn't mind.

I completely agree with some of the comments though, some abilities need to remain class specific to preserve the uniqueness of each job. Furthermore, I feel what'll eventually happen is the community will define a perfect set ability for each class, and if you don't possess these abilities then you're likely considered sub par.

"We need you to heal on THM, do you have Cure III ?"

The beauty of the current system is it removes the need for support jobs, you're given the freedom to completely pick and choose your abilities. Balance them to perfection so as the MAIN class for each ability has an advantage, while other classes who choose to equip the ability will still find it effective but not be at any greater advantage. That, and lock many abilities to each exclusive class. That's the most simple way to make each role feel more defined and exclusive.