Edited:
Dear DPS,
If you think tanks in this game have god-mode threat generation, you are spoiled.
World of Warcraft gave you a nice little cushion of 110% threat before aggro, and Taunt ensured a few seconds of the mob only attacking the tank.
Here, there is no such thing. Provoke puts my threat one point higher than the highest player. And nothing else. If I Provoke a mob off you and you're still unloading into it, not a Twelve-damned thing is going to happen except you getting your skull bashed in.
Moreover, all our threat-generating abilities are either A) weak, or B) second or third in a combo that starts with a non-threat ability. If you want to try to unload everything you've got on something I'm not focused on, scream for Provoke, pull it instantly back away from me, and tell me I'm not doing my job, you can go shove your face in a Ziz's behind.
If you're attacking what I'm focusing on, you will not pull hate off me. In fact, I dare you to try. If I'm not focusing it . . . well, I still dare you to try, but don't expect me to let the other DPS or the healers pull aggro on the target you're supposed to be attacking just to save your sorry behind.
That is all.
I can single-target all day, nobody has ever pulled a target I was focusing off me as long as I was staying on that target. 3 or 4 Flashes get some good initial aggro, and I'll check from time to time and toss a Savage Blade or Rage of Halone to keep them off the healer, but now and again I'll get some DPS that thinks it's cool to attack out of order. They soon learn otherwise.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dorin
These days I'm pretty much making it a point to talk about this with the healer, all the healers I know already know my preference on this. >:3Quote:
Originally Posted by Bouteiller
PSA: Taunt
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09-17-2013, 03:00 AMLivildaPSA: Taunt
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09-17-2013, 03:02 AMMoheeheeko
Tl;Dr someone grouped with people not from their fc and had bad times, details at 11.
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09-17-2013, 03:06 AMcoffeepotzPossibly the most blanketed statement I've seen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Livilda
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09-17-2013, 03:12 AMDorin
And if a DPS has to stop DPSing and not do his full potential damage because a PLD can't hold aggro on a single target boss, how is that called?
Been there lots of times. On the same boss, some PLD can perfectly keep my threat indicator green or max. yellow for the whole fight while I unleash hell on the boss, while with others I'm struggling to not get aggro on me, so I need to constantly stop DPSing.
Don't always blame the DPS. -
09-17-2013, 03:13 AMYoumu
Spam flash scrub. Good tanks build agro on targets even when they're not being focused.
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09-17-2013, 03:18 AMBouteiller
It amuses me how DPS, at the very suggestion of watching their threat levels, get angry. As if doing anything beyond their rotation is an affront. There are loads of great, and aware, DPS. There are also loads of worthless facerollers. It's all a fun learning experience. I suggest running with a healer friend that is open to letting annoying dps die for their incompetence.
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09-17-2013, 03:20 AMDorin
It's always the DPS's fault, always.
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09-17-2013, 03:27 AMMyrdyn_Wyldt
When I play THM, I tell the tank he's got 2.5 seconds to build an aggro lead, but then again, I only play THM with the FC, and trolling in mumble is considered a group sport :p
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09-17-2013, 03:28 AMJayrune
Speaking as a tank, a tank doing sub-par threat is the tanks fault, but it is not an excuse to pull hate as a DPS. If you get stuck with a sub-par tank and have to stop dps-ing to not pull hate, congratulations you are doing it right and are a credit to your party, hope you get a better tank next run so you can really shine. If you pull hate, you just rolled the dice on your survival and possibly others, don't do that. (if your tank is a glad sub lvl 26, be warned, their threat generation is gonna be on the low side even when reasonably geared)
However, as a healer, if you pull hate via heals, it's the tanks fault, no exceptions. If you manage to pull hate via damage i wanna know what food buffs you're using O.o
Edit: some exceptions were pointed out :O
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rymia
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09-17-2013, 03:32 AMDorinExactly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jayrune
What this means is basically that a good tank will never have this problem because he will manage to hold aggro properly.
Thus, the fact that the OP started this thread indicates that he isn't precisely a good one. -
09-17-2013, 03:38 AMGunaklouTrouble with this is, way too often I see healers and DPS spamming their abilities as soon as touch the mob. As a tank it takes me at least 2 skills to hold aggro properly. If I have that buffer, I will not loose aggro. but if the healer spam stoneskin or heals and the dps just jump on the target immediately, they will take aggro.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dorin
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09-17-2013, 03:40 AMcoffeepotzThe only time I pull hate is when the tank is lousy or dead. I watch my threat lvl. I'm sure many do. Quit lumping all DPS together, please. There are good and bad players of all roles.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bouteiller
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09-17-2013, 03:43 AMRymiaIf i spam Medica II on Titan i'll pull hate before/on the first jump through no fault of the tank.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jayrune
Regen ticks will pull the two mobs the tank didn't Shield lob on the pull, spamming cure II three seconds into the fight could pull it to.
It's not always the tanks fault if the healers not paying attention :p -
09-17-2013, 03:49 AMOrophin
I've never ran into a scenario where I've pulled a mob off a tank's first target unless they weren't playing correctly or I just got a lucky string of procs. (Firestarter + 3 Thundersparks in a row) Even if tanks don't mark their mobs I'll usually try to throw in a weak AoE attack after seeing a Flash so that I can see all the HPs of the mob party widget and make sure I'm DPSing the correct one.
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09-17-2013, 03:49 AMKyp
Medica 2 will pull agro if you spam regardless of how much hate you let the tank get ahead on, just use it once and then medica 1
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09-17-2013, 03:53 AMBouteillerOr you could, I don't know, read.Quote:
Originally Posted by coffeepotz
I see two groups of DPS I mentioned, because there are great DPS. -
09-17-2013, 03:54 AMLivildaHad this happen quite a few times in The Stone Vigil. Not fun.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rymia
And to be honest, I think I'm a pretty good tank. I'm not talking about simply losing aggro through negligence; I do pay attention and hold threat on all targets needed as best I can - especially to keep threat off healers, but I pay attention to DPS' aggro too. What I'm griping about is DPS who attack out of order or unload everything they've got 3 milliseconds into the fight and then expect me to be able to keep things from killing them. -
09-17-2013, 03:58 AMcoffeepotz
@Bouteiller
I did read that part, and yes, I apologize for not acknowledging that you mentioned that. But the first sentence said "It amuses me how DPS, at the very suggestion of watching their threat levels, get angry. As if doing anything beyond their rotation is an affront.". That was what I was referring to. Maybe it was not your intention to word it in a way that sounded like a blanket statement. Idk, I just always see hate for DPS, and it ticks me off when all DPS are grouped together. Again, I am sorry if that was not your intended point. -
09-17-2013, 04:00 AMRaxion
I can't really say I've had much of a problem holding threat as a PLD. There's the occasional problem with well-geared BRDs, as they like to start unloading the moment I start moving toward the boss. Other than that, though, I can't really complain. One good FB > SB > RoH combo and the boss is mine for good.
I always open with 2-3 Flashes before I start my combo. Maybe try that. -
09-17-2013, 04:05 AMLivildaThe problem is that so damned many of you are like that. I admit fault in lumping you all together, and have amended my OP to respect that.Quote:
Originally Posted by coffeepotz
So do I. It doesn't always work.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raxion
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09-17-2013, 04:16 AMPsyotix
Flash is the 4th skill I cast when initiating a boss
1. Shield Lob while running towards the mob -> Spirits Within -> Circle of Scorn -> Flash -> Halone Combo
This will allow you to hit 4 moves within 1 GCD. Creating some solid starting emnity
If a DPS hits the boss prior to my flash going off, its their fault if they end up face tanking the boss while I stand there and /dance
http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/118121-Guide-Paladin-Tanking-Compendium? -
09-17-2013, 04:43 AMDamnCats
Your safety is your responsibility. DPS responsibly.
Edda was right. -
09-17-2013, 05:15 AMColdComfort
While i completely agree that DPS need to learn to focus and control their TPS. A part of tanking gameplay, and part of the fun of tanking is retrieving the odd 'one that got away'.
To this end, in my opinion Provoke, is possibly the worst 'taunt' like ability i have ever seen in 10 years of MMO tanking. Its not a taunt, and its reliability largely depends on the relative difference of your GCD to the player that has pulled it.
Again it could be argued that this is down to the lack of skill of the person that has pulled the agro in knowing when to stop unloading, however as a tank it makes you feel quiet useless... by all means leave it on a long CD ( which it already is ) as when to use a taunt should be strategic, but i would really like to see it give the target a focus for N seconds similar at least giving you time to rebuild some threat head room. -
09-17-2013, 05:55 AMJayruneFair enough, I'll concede the Medica II outright, though I would hope a healer would not do that deliberately to troll.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rymia
The two mobs pulled via regen ticks is a fair point, I deal with that by positioning my flash to intercept them en-route to the healer (provided the healer is relatively behind me). But that's a gamble and takes very good timing so i can't claim every tank should be able to do this, and I'm not sure if War/Mar can do that with an overpower or not so I'll concede that as well.
The meaning i intended by my first post is that if a Dps pulls hate on a mob, your focus as the tank should be to make sure you have a hold on the other mobs rather than try to fight the Dps for that one mob, let them have it. The Dps will have higher hate than the healer and if the healer is trying to keep the Dps alive then you need to focus your threat gen evenly enough on the mobs to make sure they don't go after the healer. If the mob kills the dps cause the healer wanted to teach them not to pull hate then all you have to make sure of is that you are still in front of the healer in the threat table. -
09-17-2013, 06:29 AMKyriea
The majority of DPS I've tanked for have been great, but there are the odd few that really ruin the experience by being completely blind to enmity. They assume it's ok just to unload everything, which is fine if you're geared worse than I am because chances are I'll get the mob back fairly quickly and we don't have to worry, however you'll every now and then get a relic DPS come along and think they are best because they have a relic, and consequently think they can tank better than you.
People should play a tank job before judging, but they wont. The problem here is with other people's stupidity and the best way to overcome that is to either leave the group if they continue to pull hate (they will have a significantly longer wait time) providing it is actually their fault, or just get the run done as quickly as possible and hope you never meet them again. Best thing to do is avoid Duty Finder all together, but I understand that's not always a possibility.
Also as a last note, Healers can be just as bad as DPS if they don't know what they're doing or don't understand what a tank has to do to cement hate on an enemy. It's all about timing. -
09-17-2013, 07:03 AMGod_made_me_do_it
Quite an interesting post, but mainly more because I was looking for more info on how to tank better.
I've only just got the provoke skill on my GLD and noticed the cooldown was pretty long, so I assume shield lob is a good way to aggro initially, and flash is good aggro/crowd control in the immediate vicinity, while provoke is kind of more for emergencies?
Would provoke followed immediately by a shield lob help if provoke only puts you 1 emnity point ahead of the DPS who drew aggro? I know the DPS needs to back off but taking into consideration the time it takes them to realise that I'm just thinking it's a emnity-generating ranged attack with a short cooldown and might put you a little more in the clear quickly. Good or bad idea? -
09-17-2013, 07:51 AMdarthkyron
He's right.
People need to tank and be a dd in order to see the 2 sides of the coin.
On low lv 15-20 dungeons , you can see that DD'S almost never wait for the tank to pull and flash, mobs and they always target different mobs,
I have been tanking and DD to lv30 dungeons, so i know how to play when i'm tanking and when i'm DD.
The problem is that many DD'S don't have a low lv tank to do some dungeons and know how stressful it can be on random DF. -
09-17-2013, 11:55 AMZakalweNo, it is not a taunt, it is a 'threat copy' an entirely different thing. Threat copies can be extremely useful, especially coming back from death, if they actually succeed in putting you at the top of the threat table +1, but in my experience Provoke can sometimes inexplicably fail in doing that. The usual mmo tank tools are straight-up +threat, taunt, threat copy and threat leech. Tanks in this game only have two of those four.Quote:
Originally Posted by ColdComfort
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09-17-2013, 12:54 PMWobblePick me, pick me. ^^Quote:
Originally Posted by Bouteiller
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09-17-2013, 01:15 PMWobi
Being that I've been on all sides of this coin, tank/dps/healer. I will have to concede that quite a few DD jobs tend to go balls to the wall in random DF groups and target whatever they damn well please. Thankfully I have my FC for the more important stuff but I'm not dragging them on every CM run. Then you tend to also get your "What do you mean use Flash? tanks and crazy overhealing WHM/SCH, but that tends to dissipate at the higher levels.
I think everyone should spend some time on other classes to get a feel for how the rest of the group is playing out, it will make you a better player overall knowing all the roles in the party.