Stop casting regen on your party/tank before pulls.

That is the reason you get agro as soon as a tank pulls.

Although more accurately it would be better if Square made it so that HoTs case before combat starts don't generate aggro

It would also be nice for tanks to realize that happens and cancel the renew between pulls when chain pulling trash. My company's tanks do so, but training a puggy tank to do so has proven futile so far.

Now if you have a healer that keeps on trying to cast the renew right before each pull, yes it's on them. But if you pull as a tank with 5 seconds of renew left that one is on you. Either cancel the buff or wait 5 seconds.

or better yet, wait until ur healer cast the buff etc before u start moving into the boss and start
I even said in chat, "wait, let me cast Succor first", and they still rush..

I only have problems with tanks that open with anything but Flash during pulls. When I meet those tanks, I neglect casting Regen when there is only one monster left. When I have a proper tank, I can cast whatever buff I want and no monster will ever reach me.

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Originally Posted by Accolades

That is the reason you get agro as soon as a tank pulls.

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I never cast regen prior to a pull, but I think tanks should also be aware they can click the hot off if it happens to be up between pulls.

Regening before a pull is a bad idea for sure. However, if you are attentive enough Mr. Tank: you can actually right click off the buff yourself if regen is still ticking and or your healer jumps the gun! Now you know! Cough, good tanks know about this...right? ;)

Even regen on dps will also cause agro the tank can only cancel his regen.

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Originally Posted by Accolades

That is the reason you get agro as soon as a tank pulls.

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Tank can just click it off, probably should since it can easily last from the previous pull into the next.

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Originally Posted by Accolades

Even regen on dps will also cause agro the tank can only cancel his regen.

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Putting a regen on a DPS is fairly rare, especially on trash pulls.

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Originally Posted by Accolades

That is the reason you get agro as soon as a tank pulls.

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this is like basic healing 101 - what noob doesn't know this? lol

I agree that healers should know this... but I can imagine seeing the need for heals before the next pull, and assuming the tank will WAIT until everyone tops off before pulling. There may be some shared responsibility here.

I'm guessing this is WAI, and it seems like a challanging mechanic, not sure square should just nerf it.


***edit I don't expect healers to magically know the second they get regen, I do expect them to figure it out after 1 or 2 pulls, and then stop doing it.

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Originally Posted by Simaril

I agree that healers should know this...

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I needed to be told this; the only other mmo I played was FFXI and this was not the case in that game.

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Originally Posted by Coberst

I needed to be told this; the only other mmo I played was FFXI and this was not the case in that game.

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Eh don't feel bad. This wasn't the case in *any* of the old school mmos. Its wow kiddies "common knowledge" i guess.

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Originally Posted by Shmashed

Eh don't feel bad. This wasn't the case in *any* of the old school mmos. Its wow kiddies "common knowledge" i guess.

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WoW's overheals do not generate threat, but good on you for insulting them anyways.

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Originally Posted by bloodSp3c

this is like basic healing 101 - what noob doesn't know this? lol

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People from wow, that's who.

Is regen really that powerful?

Good tanks should know to click it off? I was thinking good tanks should not have a problem grabbing stuff even with regen ticking. Maybe I'm too low level to know the real fights...is it a serious problem, that regen at level 50?

Seems everything agro the healer first whether you do anything or not. But you should wait for the tank to grab all the mobs before you cast anything. Even on yourself or other party members. My regen tic 200+ sometimes in the 300+ with divine seal. That's strong. I usually wait for stone skin to break before casting but if the tank has regen on before you get in agro range, like from the end of the previous fight. doesn't seem to effect hate toward the healer. Right before a pull your asking for trouble.

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Originally Posted by Accolades

People from wow, that's who.

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haha good point!

My comment had nothing to do with WOW or other MMORPGS. It has everything to with paying attention to the consequences of your actions. If you cast regen on the tank before the pull, and the mob goes directly for you before you cast cure, you should be able to figure out that regen before the pull generates aggro.



PSA from simaril: The WOW hate in this game is rediculous. It had huge subscription, so chances are many of us played it. Would you rather talk about Phantasy Star Online for Dreamcast? Everquest Online Adventures for PS2? Bashing previous MMOs is like talking trash about your ex-wife or ex-girlfriend... it makes YOU lok bad more than the thing you're bashing.

If I'm running with either of my two tank friends I can leave Regen running on them through the entire instance, without an issue of threat being directed towards me. Now given I won't do that with a tank I've never played with. ∩( ・ω・)∩

sometimes it is a spill-over from the previous fight. but the tank should cancel it before pulling if it bothers him that much. besides, nothing a few flashes/overpower cant deal with :/

That whole, "good tanks cancel it" nonsense is really another way of saying, "you should correct our mistakes, and by the way, we never make mistakes" and you all know it. That's no different than a DPS blaming the tank for attacking the wrong target by saying, "Well you could just provoke it!" or, "You have cover, so why is it I'm not allowed to attack everything at random to my heart's content?" or crying because he died to the healer, "because MEDICA!" so stop making excuses for why you screwed the pooch and cast regen before pulls. You know it's wrong, and the tank shouldn't have to be on vigilant watch for canceling unnecessary buffs that you KNOW you shouldn't be casting. Are you TRYING to test the tank? Just making sure he's on the up-and-up? "Haha, test failed, group wiped - you were supposed to CANCEL my regen before you pulled!"

Stop doing it and it becomes a non-issue entirely. If you find yourself so bored you have to cast unnecessary spells at inappropriate times just for the hell of it and/or cannot stop yourself from doing it, pick a different job. Healers aren't getting a free pass for doing stupid things any other class would be immediately chastised for doing.

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Originally Posted by Zfz

I was thinking good tanks should not have a problem grabbing stuff even with regen ticking. Maybe I'm too low level to know the real fights...is it a serious problem, that regen at level 50?

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It's not a problem to out-aggro regen, not at all. The issue is more that it can make pulls unnecessarily fiddly. Aggro in FF is a little clunky at times. Sometimes mobs have aggro on a target, run over to attack, and despite the tank getting aggro back will still do the attack beforehand.

The problem with regen is mostly on multi-target pulls. A single boss is no issue - one shield lob/tomahawk to pull and regen doesnt matter. The issue is pulling a pack of, say, 3 linked mobs. You shield lob one and in most cases all 3 run to you nicely and you can flash all 3 when they get in range. If you have regen ticking, depending on when the heal ticks, the 2 you DONT throw shield lob at will run to the healer. Now sometimes they run right past you and you can flash-grab them anyway and there's no issue, but sometimes they're further apart and the healer moves and they end up in a weird position.

Again, it's not a major issue, any good tank can account for that, but in a world where 2.5 second global cooldowns exist, having to maybe throw an extra shield lob or having a flash be out of range for one target can mean all the difference in establishing stable aggro on a pull. It's easy to grab the mobs that run for the healer with the regen tick, yes, but if it takes 1-2 more global cooldowns to do so then you risk possibly losing the main target to over-eager dps.

It's a minor thing really but it can be a little annoying. Clicking it off helps, as does the healer not casting it. If the healer forgets not to cast or the tank doesnt notice it ticking then it can make some multi-mob trash pulls a little fiddly to get under control at first.

I don't think this is as simple as: healers shouldn't cast regen before pulls, OR tanks should click it off before they... It's a little of BOTH.

Healers may cast a regen after a mob dies to top off the tank before the next pull... If the tank is rushing through he might not notice that he has a regen ticing anway, and should either wait for regen to finish or click it off.
Healers may cast regen on an already topped off tank just before he pulls... they shouldn't do this unless the tank knows they're doing it and is okay with threat.

It's very situational, and the real problem is when Healers assume tanks will wait or click off, or manage the extra threat. Everyone needs to understand the mechanic.



If the tank is pulling before he's even close to topped off with a regen ticing, then he better be able to deal with the extra aggro. If the tank is close to topped off, the healer shouldn't be putting another regen on him... In a run where you're pushing it by pulling as fast as possible, or being undergeared, and no one is super experienced - these ARE challanges to learn about, understand, and overcome.




Use your words - decide on a strategy - profit!

Flash a skill all tanks need solve this issue. Use your skills properly and no problem with Regen at the start

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Originally Posted by Blazn

Use your skills properly and no problem with Regen at the start

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Well, I guess the same could be said about casting Regen on a fresh pull, eh? So again, what was said was, "Use your skills properly" and what was meant was, "It's your fault for not covering my lack of common sense and doing things I'm fully aware I shouldn't be doing."

People saying a "good" tank cancels it. A competent healer doesn't do it from the start. You know why that is? Because they're aware that the only thing accomplished by casting Regen, even if to, "top off" a few measly HP that the tank's natural regen would probably cover by the time of next initiation, is:

* Increased, unnecessary threat to them.
* A harder fight/pull if threat becomes distributed.
* What could be considered insignificant but still lost MP with little to show for it.

And while we're on the topic of insignificant, yes, that little bit of HP you were using as an excuse to, "top off" the tank also falls under that category, except in this case it might become significant when a mob is smacking on you instead of him.

I'm starting to think it might be necessary to write a Wiki on this topic, but I don't know how many ways one can say:

JUST DON'T DO IT AND IT'S NEVER A PROBLEM. IT ISN'T NECESSARY, THE RISKS OUTWEIGH ANY POSSIBLE BENEFITS, AND YOU'RE NOT GOING TO WIN ANY FRIENDS IF YOU DO IT, SO JUST DON'T

It's one less thing a healer has to do, it's one thing healers (should) generally accept they SHOULDN'T do, but yet here we have healers making excuses and saying, "Well I guess if someone did do that, the tank should have just canceled the effect or busted an early flash..." Mind-blowing, really, because the argument revolves around a person doing something they should know better than doing in the first place, and yet somehow it is almost the general consensus (here anyway) that despite the fact the healer is breaking a cardinal rule of healing, it's still the fault of the tank.

Ok level 50 now. Outside areas that I had to spam Cure 2 for Tanks and DPS casting Regen b4 pulls has NEVER been an issue. What is an issue thou is Tank and DPS not having their act together and going in without proper buffs. The problem with threads of this type is you get one person that wants to rush thru places and wont form an attack plan then they are not properly equipped to hold hate without dying and the mages have to over heal. I was once in a party were the freaking THM was doing melee damage with his wand to the mobs. Who is t he person that has to heal actions like that?... WHM. The fact that the healer is spamming a healing spell means... And don't get me wrong we all make mistakes and get agro when we dont want it but being able to manage how much agro you get and when you get it is each individual player responsibility.

I've played a lot of MMOs and this is the first one I've played where a heal over time generates so much hate. Usually it's the party all heals that do it (and they do in this game as well).

Of course, it's something that you learn to deal with very quickly.

I confess to having a similar issue when casting Adloquium to prebuff tanks before a pull. 90% of the time, it works without a hitch, but sometimes I misjudge and end up with a face full of the other two+ mobs (when I start casting just before he or she pulls, then end up with hate on the rest of the group). It's my fault, and I run over to the tank to let him flash them back to him.

I suppose I am rambling, but a point I guess I can make out of it is that: everyone makes mistakes, even the best players; what separates good players from bad is knowing what to do when they make a mistake.

Not even shroud would help when casting regen at start... with full hp it does nothing but draw hate... With a good enough tank and high enough vit and def there should be no need to heal the first few seconds of a fight.. regen included. Only an idiot starts a fight with regen on party members.

As a tank, here's the common problem scenario:
- approach group of 3 trash mobs
- pick your 1st target, mark, use Tomahawk/Shield Lob
- regen ticks
- 1st target comes to tank, other targets rush past toward the healer

At that point, perhaps tank is lucky enough to have global cooldown finished and Flash as the 2 adds go past. It's a very narrow time window though, and if you don't react fast enough or are still on GCD then mobs are spread apart and on the healer already.

This puts the tank behind in the agro game early on.

Do I run after the mobs on the healer & flash? If yes, less agro on the 1st target which may lead to DPS taking that 1st target agro. Especially those BRD that start DPS immediately without having to run in or anything. And 1 flash may not be enough to get agro for long anyway.

Do I provoke + hit one of the adds on healer? That should lock 1 to me, but still another on healer and possibly lose 1st target agro to DPS too.

I suppose DPS could back off when this happens. And heals kept to a minumum. Until tank gets it under control. But that's not in tank's control and can't count on it. And would slow progress anyway.

So the only possible "good" outcomes are:
1. No regen on. Either by healer not casting it or by tank clicking it off.
2. Luckily hit the perfect time window and position to catch all 3 mobs with Flash. That's what I was going to do without regen interfering anyway, so it's a fine position to be in.

Not all healers use regen. Trying to train myself to watch for it on pulls >1, but it's something I've forgotten plenty of times. Having the healer do it for me is nice.

I do confess I had been caught doing this early on when I hit 50 - usually it's cuz I want to top the group off and the HoT is still ticking after the next mob. INSTA agro on me...

In past MMOs I have never had this issue with over healing. I DO like that FFXIV makes me really think about the over healing consequences and not just think "MUST keep HP bar full at all times."

The best point I think someone mentioned earlier on, is that you make a mistake and you fix it - THIS is what makes you a good player.

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Originally Posted by Draemos

I never cast regen prior to a pull, but I think tanks should also be aware they can click the hot off if it happens to be up between pulls.

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Try canceling anything with a PS3 controller.

something I learned on both m tank and healer in the 30's :P when I see this happen ingame (specifically getting a new regen before pull) I explain it to the healer.

I only got problems with it when the mobs are very spread on pull so i have to be totally exact at the hit with my flash. Hitting moving objects with the actual delay is (espacially on Shiva) a hard try sometimes..
At least, it may help to talk friendly to your healer and ask him of buffing you after the pull, not before. :)

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Originally Posted by Accolades

Even regen on dps will also cause agro the tank can only cancel his regen.

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I almost never Regen dps anymore. Hopefully they're not taking sustained damage, so usually it'll just amount to a lot of wasted healing anyway....plus all that threat.

My only probleme with Regen is when you fight boss and then ADD get there...

They always come at me... because of this regen thing... I know it, but how Am I soppose to heal the tank all the fight and never do regen cause it do too much aggro.... I always plays with a Scholar friend and he never get aggro over me and sometime he do all the healing and I only do Regen and I still pull this aggro...


IT happen in CM a lots in the second boss for pretty much no reason at all..... Not like I cast MedicaII or CureIII that make no sens how much aggro regen do

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Originally Posted by Shmashed

Eh don't feel bad. This wasn't the case in *any* of the old school mmos. Its wow kiddies "common knowledge" i guess.

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Was just like this in EQ, never heal on a INC and never cast a HOT on a INC, if the tank is in bad shape on a INC pull let them die dont put the group in danger just for a heal or regen. I dont think it should be the tanks responsibility to click off buffs, healers know not to cast them and they shouldn't be. Only excuse is that the healers are lazy.

Another question i had is why do healers run around in circles when they get agro, its almost impossible to get mobs off people where they do that. Stand still and let the tank get the agro off you simple as that.

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Originally Posted by Blys

My only probleme with Regen is when you fight boss and then ADD get there...

They always come at me... because of this regen thing... I know it, but how Am I soppose to heal the tank all the fight and never do regen cause it do too much aggro.... I always plays with a Scholar friend and he never get aggro over me and sometime he do all the healing and I only do Regen and I still pull this aggro...


IT happen in CM a lots in the second boss for pretty much no reason at all..... Not like I cast MedicaII or CureIII that make no sens how much aggro regen do

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Shouldn't really be too much of a problem, if your DPS know what they're doing, they should be be on the adds asap and stunning them if necessary. Also, DRG and MNK can tank adds just fine.

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Originally Posted by Kuvu

Was just like this in EQ, never heal on a INC and never cast a HOT on a INC, if the tank is in bad shape on a INC pull let them die dont put the group in danger just for a heal or regen. I dont think it should be the tanks responsibility to click off buffs, healers know not to cast them and they shouldn't be. Only excuse is that the healers are lazy.

Another question i had is why do healers run around in circles when they get agro, its almost impossible to get mobs off people where they do that. Stand still and let the tank get the agro off you simple as that.

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Because they are dumb.