If you're pulling with Provoke you're doing it wrong

That's how you insta-spot a nub tank.

And shame on you SE for allowing such a horrible tooltip into the final game.

I guess I'm a noob. It's a long range pull. Sometimes you need to, sometimes you don't and shield lob would do. But certain situations might call for it.

Certainly you can deduce I am speaking of those that use it 100% of the time.

Thanks for stating the obvious.

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Originally Posted by NoctisCaelus

I guess I'm a noob. It's a long range pull. Sometimes you need to, sometimes you don't and shield lob would do. But certain situations might call for it.

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The problem is that you waste a very valuable skill, put on cooldown for 40 sec, for absolutely no advantage: provoke does no aggro. You'll still have to lob, flash or throw a few damage abilities in order to hold aggro beyond your DD's first skill or your healer's first heal.

Provoke puts you on top of the aggro list, but that's all it does: immediately after, you're bound to go down this list if you don't do anything else. Which means that it's invaluable if your objective is to get back a mob to you: provoke then lob does wonders to do that. Typically, after pulling with lob then flashing the whole pack, if some DDs go crazy on AoE, or your healer needs to put some heavy curing out there, chances are a mob will go to them: that's when provoke is your best friend, followed by something else to keep you on top of the aggro list for some time.

Keeping Provoke as a "panic button" is probably the best way to use it when regular means don't work, or the mob is too far away from you and for some reason you wish to stay where you are and force the mob to come back.

I use provoke to grab the enemy who is attack my healer of course I follow up with flash and rage combo for good measure.

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Originally Posted by Syfin

Thanks for stating the obvious.

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You'd think it would be. Try leveling up a DPS or even a healer in pug dungeons. If you aren't raging 90% of the time, you're one lucky person.

Consider the source. This guy's a 40 archer. He probably goes all out within 5 seconds of the pull +bloodletter and then blames the tank for not having provoke.

Just a quick tidbit: Leveling PLD, did a dungeon today, took 5 flashes to get all the mobs to get on me finally. 2 archers, both attacking 2 targets. Then called me a failure at life. I left the DF midpull and left them with repair bills.

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Originally Posted by Lucroarna

Consider the source. This guy's a 40 archer. He probably goes all out within 5 seconds of the pull +bloodletter and then blames the tank for not having provoke.

Just a quick tidbit: Leveling PLD, did a dungeon today, took 5 flashes to get all the mobs to get on me finally. 2 archers, both attacking 2 targets. Then called me a failure at life. I left the DF midpull and left them with repair bills.

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You can't hold aggro without me needing to wait? My brother can. You bad?

I like how you're accusing me of something when I've simply stated a bad tanking practice. Are you saying pulling with provoke is a good thing? lolnub

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Originally Posted by Alcyon_Densetsu

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I never had a problem with aggro. That's cause if I lure, my team knows to wait for me to generate necessary hate as well after I positioned them. You don't always need to save your provokes.

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Originally Posted by Lucroarna

Consider the source. This guy's a 40 archer. He probably goes all out within 5 seconds of the pull +bloodletter and then blames the tank for not having provoke.

Just a quick tidbit: Leveling PLD, did a dungeon today, took 5 flashes to get all the mobs to get on me finally. 2 archers, both attacking 2 targets. Then called me a failure at life. I left the DF midpull and left them with repair bills.

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Thatd terrible of you. As a tank you are the leader. Create a mark 1 macro so that when you pull they know which to focus. Problem solved. I tanked all the way to 50 without any issues because I did my job as a tank. I lead and explained.

Provoke is a fantastic pulling tool, for times when there are wanderers that you want to tag out from the group but know that getting too close to lob might end up with 4-5 mobs on you instead of the 1-2 you want to pull.

And honestly you gotta have pretty bad reaction time to need provoke in most fights, I probably use it 2-3 times per dungeon run, most of which are for pulling pats.

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Originally Posted by rzr22

That's how you insta-spot a nub tank.

And shame on you SE for allowing such a horrible tooltip into the final game.

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Ohh i played with you once an Instance and you are some of the dumbest DDs i have ever seen and your brother i think he was with you the Paladin i dont know his name anymore but he not so good as you say, i have often enough 1 or 2 creatures on me and sry at him if he dont was it.

Regardless of who may or may not be a "nub tank", DD's need to learn that special skill called "patience" and actually wait a second or 2 for the tank to get agro on the mob he's planning to start with out of the 3 or so that may be there, not every tank will end up being pro in every aspect, so stop being awful DDs and learn to patience, not everything is a DPS race.

with the number of bad tanks threads, we really gotta create some bad DDs threads...

the number of DDs that thinks they are flawless is astounding...

One really good experience for me have been to run instances as Im leveling up my tank with guildmates. Cause they continue to test me in the dungeons. Sometimes I hear AOE, just at the moment I do a shield lob to start the fight and then they leave it up to me to climb up as leader of aggro or sometimes they pull the next group before we are finished with the first group, which means I have to work my ass off to keep the current and the new mobs off of the healer and dps. Of course this has been done on the easier dungeons up to lvl 40, but it have forced me to learn how to handle even the tougher situations. So as long as I dont screw up, then I can almost 98% of the times keep the mobs off of the rest of the group nowadays.

This have learned me to never pull with provoke, cause I will usually need it a bit later on. But sure there may be uses to grab a mob with it, but usually if I need a ranged pull someone else in the group does it for me and I havent had any issues in pulling the aggro off of the one grabbing that certain mob.

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Originally Posted by Gorlioliolio

Provoke is a fantastic pulling tool, for times when there are wanderers that you want to tag out from the group but know that getting too close to lob might end up with 4-5 mobs on you instead of the 1-2 you want to pull.

And honestly you gotta have pretty bad reaction time to need provoke in most fights, I probably use it 2-3 times per dungeon run, most of which are for pulling pats.

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This. Plain and simple.

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Originally Posted by ReiszRie

with the number of bad tanks threads, we really gotta create some bad DDs threads...

the number of DDs that thinks they are flawless is astounding...

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This. Had a "elite" team blame me for wipe because apparently I'm supposed to let them unload all their spells first before I even think about tanking.

Man, another thread where some kids think they know best.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-JcaM9mC--s...mut.com-18.jpg

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Originally Posted by rzr22

You can't hold aggro without me needing to wait? My brother can. You bad?

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Learn to use Quelling Strike. Its there for a reason. <_< If you pull aggro as Archer/Bard you simply do not use Quelling Strike, which is "fail". So before you throw stones you should make sure, that you are not sitting in a House made of Glass.

I do not deny that bad Tanks do exist, but tbh i have seen way more worse Archer/Bards than i have seen bad Tanks. Most of the Times when Archers/Bards start to complain about the Tank being bad and i actually check the Battle-Log... oh surprise.. no Quelling Strike. Which is almost as bad as getting the initial Claim on Archer/Bard.

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Originally Posted by Gorlioliolio

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Agreed on the increased range. However, it's not just about reaction time: if DPS in your team are much overgeared compared to you, it's a pain to keep aggro, let alone get it back. Likewise if they go crazy on AoE. Likewise if your healer needs to punch through much unnecessary damage, or goes crazy overhealing. It's not that simple, you must have either a great gear, or great partners to never have to use provoke. It's a fantastic tool to get mobs back on you as a tank. Also, it's a DPS job to deal damage, as well as to stop doing it if mobs start hitting them, so that the tank can get the mobs back. It's basic DPS'in 101 in most MMORPGs. This FF XIV is no different, however aggro management is a bit more tricky than it is usually since there's a cap system: it's more about aggro repartition (%s) than a simple absolute value, so a team must really work together to get that done right. From one group to the next, things are just so variable, depending on who does what and how, whereas I usually have the same routine and (overall good) reaction time.

Annnnnnnnnnd these are some of the reasons I won't tank DF I'll use members from my Ls or FC Thanks :3

Tanking is the role that struggles most in dungeons.
When i played a healer it was relaxed and easy... this is not the case most of the times for tanks.
I need to be much more focused to make sure I'm at the top of the aggro list.
DD scrubs should be careful with their criticism, they are expendable and easy to play. :p

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Originally Posted by GongStar

DD scrubs should be careful with their criticism, they are expendable and easy to play. :p

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LMAO

Oh man. Get a load of this guy. I can't believe your first post was THAT.

The OP is so correct on this. I did not fully learn that provoke actually equates you to the highest person on the monsters hate list. I thought there was actually high level hate built into it. The more you know.

No matter what if you are a DD and you are pulling aggro. It is your job to adapt. Team work is just that, filling in the gaps. If the tank is not as good as you are accustomed to then you should help the tank regain control, you do this by easing off on the damage.

Going ape from the start of the fight is worse than anything a bad tank can do. The idea is to let the tank get control, THEN go ape. Tank starts to lose control. You ease off. Simples.

In my opinion, Provoke's greatest strength comes from the ability to put the tank back at the top of the hate meter following a death. Raise the tank, tank provokes and we can carry on. It also allows the off tank to get to the top of the hate meter if the main tank dies.

As for pulling with Provoke, in the rare instance you need a longer range pull than Shield Lob, Provoke being on CD isn't that big of a deal as we have other enmity tools that are better at the beginning of a fight and we are probably talking about trash anyway. Shield Lob or Tomahawk would fill the role of getting hate back on a mob that changed targets and you don't feel like chasing it.

That being said, hate isn't completely handed to us in FFXIV as it is in other MMOs (I played multiple tanks in WoW, Rift, SWTOR). A decently geared DD certainly CAN pull from a tank, especially when they are attacking a mob that the tank isn't (even when rotating Flash in after each combo rotation).

How about giving these tanks you meet advice and making them better players instead of spewing hatred on the forums? I'm tired of these don't do that or this threads. Telling everyone on the forums they are just doing it wrong sounds condescending, and won't actually help anyone just turn players off from the community. Comment your problems with players personally.

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Originally Posted by GongStar

Tanking is the role that struggles most in dungeons.
When i played a healer it was relaxed and easy... this is not the case most of the times for tanks.
I need to be much more focused to make sure I'm at the top of the aggro list.
DD scrubs should be careful with their criticism, they are expendable and easy to play. :p

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I would honestly claim that healers have the toughest role in late game dungeons, having several 50s and doing multiple roles often, I believe that tanking in endgame is far easier than healing in many situations. Tanks do their rotation and stay out of stuff and generally no one dies. You get fights like Demon Wall or and of the Primals where healers have to not only cure during gaps in dodging the boss mechanic but heal up dps that are also trying to dodge the boss mechanic. I've had several tanks in endgame that got mad at their healer in fights where the tank has the easiest job in the whole encounter.

Granted much of what I said is a moot point when you run with groups that can dodge. But I've seen plenty of tanks AND dps that will completely ignore the giant red AOE indicators and claim that it is the healers job to heal through it.

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Originally Posted by Awdogsgo2heaven

How about giving these tanks you meet advice and making them better players instead of spewing hatred on the forums? I'm tired of these don't do that or this threads. Telling everyone on the forums they are just doing it wrong sounds condescending, and won't actually help anyone just turn players off from the community. Comment your problems with players personally.

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http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...-Current-Tanks. :3 That's what I did.

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Originally Posted by NoctisCaelus

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...-Current-Tanks. :3 That's what I did.

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That's the kind of threads this forum needs!

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Originally Posted by rzr22

You'd think it would be. Try leveling up a DPS or even a healer in pug dungeons. If you aren't raging 90% of the time, you're one lucky person.

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Or you're a person who doesn't get mad at video games.

If you honestly think provoke isn't one of the best pull skills, YOU'RE doing it wrong. Guess you like running into mobs that aren't even linked because everything else is shortrange, huh? The only time I would need it for its actually purpose is if I die and lose aggro, and by then the cd is reset. 1/10 troll would not read again.

Some people should really try to level a tank before opening their mouths. It's ok if you want to share your opinion or give some tips, but stop being sooo mean to others thinking that you know everything about every class, when you clearly don't.

As for the main topic, and as has been said, sometimes you want to use provoke to pull a mob without getting closer to use lob and grab the whole room with you. Just wait a bit after the pull so that the tank can properly build aggro, and everyone's happy. Also, it's not as if you should normally have to use provoke during a fight if everyone does his/her job and attacks the targets as marked by the tank (things go wrong sometimes, of course).

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Originally Posted by Amyas

If you're not using voke to pull, you're a fail tank. Guess you like running into mobs that aren't even linked because everything else is shortrange, huh? The only time I would need it for its actually purpose is if I die and lose aggro, and by then the cd is reset. 1/10 troll would not read again.

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What? I don't even....

While there may be a rare instance where Provoke pulling is necessary for the longer range, it SHOULD NOT be your primary pulling tool. That's what Shield Lob and Tomahawk are for and their range is generally sufficient. Provoke does NOTHING for you at the beginning of a fight in terms of enmity like Shield Lob and Tomahawk do.

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Originally Posted by Awdogsgo2heaven

How about giving these tanks you meet advice and making them better players instead of spewing hatred on the forums? I'm tired of these don't do that or this threads. Telling everyone on the forums they are just doing it wrong sounds condescending, and won't actually help anyone just turn players off from the community. Comment your problems with players personally.

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Have you considered the thought that I have? Because I actually play a tank. Sometimes I actually tell them exactly how I do my rotation and manage threat on multiple enemies.

Do you know how many actually recognize my existence? Almost none of them. Why would they listen to some DPS that has never played a tank? OH RIGHT, BECAUSE I HAVE PLAYED A TANK! But they're as dense as you lot and make assumptions.

I love all the assumptions about me in this thread. They're so fun to read.

Also, I grow tired of teaching a moron how to do his job which should be something they figure out on their own using logic. How many times do I have to do this? 9 out of 10 dungeon runs? Nah. I'd rather piss you off because I wait 30 minutes for your dumb butt to make everyone else's time miserable because you can't learn a simple job. Combo 1 2 3 and tab everyone now and then. GEE FREAKING WHIZ IS THIS HARD. Give me a BLM that knows out to sleep and I may as well go to sleep myself.

Then again, this is a community that thinks Brayflox is hard. OH GOD MOVING. Hardest thing in the world.

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Originally Posted by rzr22

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I probably would ignore you too if you were speaking to me like that. I don't care if you're the best tank on the server, you're worth less than players that can't figure out Brayflox. What makes you think that because something is simple for you it must be simple for others? Get a life and stop ruining our community with your poor attitude.

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Originally Posted by Thalamant

What? I don't even....

While there may be a rare instance where Provoke pulling is necessary for the longer range, it SHOULD NOT be your primary pulling tool. That's what Shield Lob and Tomahawk are for and their range is generally sufficient. Provoke does NOTHING for you at the beginning of a fight in terms of enmity like Shield Lob and Tomahawk do.

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Take the 'dangerous' pull after Coincounter in AV (actually all of AV in general, especially the beginning), and so many other pulls in Every. Single. Dungeon. You can't use shield lob or tomahawk without pulling more mobs than necessary, and if you pull two groups that aren't linked accidentally, you've 'failed' that pull imo.

I mean, using provoke to pull I've gotten compliments from people saying 'Oh wow I didn't realize those groups weren't linked' obviously because other tanks like the OP here just runs in and tomahawks w/e is closest and pull the whole room. You don't realize how common mobs that aren't linked with a group are, even in low level dungeons. There's always three to four linked that are static in a particular room, then ones that move about and intermingle with the ones that actually are linked. Provoke makes nitpicking easy, and helps so so much with pugs and duty finder groups that can't just plow through everything.

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Originally Posted by Amyas

Take the pull after Coincounter in AV (actually all of AV in general), and so many other pulls in Every. Single. Dungeon. You can't use shield lob or tomahawk without pulling more mobs than necessary, and if you pull two groups that aren't linked accidentally, you've 'failed' that pull imo.

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Like I said, there are exceptions but it isn't our primary pulling tool.

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Originally Posted by Thalamant

Like I said, there are exceptions but it isn't our primary pulling tool.

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If I'm actually 'pulling' (as in pulling the mobs away from other mobs, so as not to aggro more than necessary) it pretty much is. If its a static group with no other mobs or mobs that move around, I run in and flash, single target +enmity combo, then position myself for overpower a few times to seal the deal, works every time, even with overzealous healers and dd. (okay I lied, maybe another flash if the healers or dd goes a little too crazy)

Tomahawk has its places, but for actual 'pulling' it needs a range buff, because it simply doesn't have the range to pull properly in cases where you have to actually 'pull' mobs away, with current dungeon designs anyways. Maybe I'm just too careful, meh.