The change effecting speed runs and what SE can do more to help player base.

I wanted to make a post so that we could talk without starting a flame war between people who wanted this change and people very upset it. Us yelling at each other is not going to help the community as a whole. It does not help the game that i assume most of us deeply enjoy. i will only make one point to each side.

For the people upset over speed running being gone, what did you expect SE to do? Skipping content was never going to be something a dev was going to be cool with. I would plea with you for patience. If this and the entire relaunch in general has taught us anything its that the staff is watching the game and trying to make it better always.

For the people happy about the change and rubbing it in the face of the players that are not please take a step back and really look at yourself. Yes you might love the change however one can not deny that tomb grind is going to take a very long time now. While end game should not be a fast loot fest, if a lot of players feel the grind is simply boring and not worth the time put in that is a problem. a chunk of the player base being upset is not good.

With all that said what can SE do? lets give them ideas that we all can be for. It is obvious that this was a fast fix added into the patch. One can only assume that they seek to add in more changes. lets be advocates here for the player base as whole.

I am not at end game so i don't feel i can really put forward many ideas for more changes as i have not experienced it yet. However i will say that maybe they should up the tome rewards. Not but a huge amount but by enough that the players don't feel like its such a up hill grind. maybe 100 tomes per run? Perhaps more ways to collect tomes?

Lets come together here and stop tearing each other down. Lets come up with some ideas as a whole. Thank you for reading. Sorry for poor grammar and see you in game.

I agree, they need to up the tome rewards significantly if they want dungeon runs to take 1 hour+. Problem is, they likely wont implement any changes like that for some time, if at all.
Some time from now isnt soon enough to fix this issue. I did enough of a stupid gear grind in WoW, and this one is worse.


The real problem at hand is that they gave us a total lack of content at high levels.
2 level 50 4 man dungeons with crap for gear. I mean, what was the point? The darklight gear should be dropping in there, it shouldnt be a token grind to get it in order to replace the worthless gear that drops from the 2 dungeons they gave us.
3 Primal hard modes. Kill Ifrit get a weapon (maybe)... move on to Garuda and get a weapon again (maybe), and all this on the way to completing your relic quest which is... a weapon. Poorly thought out, IMO.
1 raid that hardly anybody can access, and that the devs expect almost nobody to complete.
And in order to get in to said raid, you have to grind away tokens to get gear to replace the gear that already took forever to get from drops, but is so bad that it isnt worth using.
And in order to grind these tokens, you have to run the same 2 dungeons over and over and over. And they take forever now that they speed run is broken.
I lost interest in each dungeon after the second run. The speed runs were the only thing making that grind bearable. The trash takes forever, the bosses take forever. The trash drops no loot, and gear damage is very hard on the wallet.

Yes, this issue needs to be addressed, but in all likelyhood it wont be before its already too late. They already lost my subscription.

Hell, I should probably thank SE for this blunder. Ive been needing to break my MMO habit.

NB4 "nobody will miss you": read the above to understand why I feel its just not worth playing beyond this patch.

I dunno about that man. This game has shown they react to what people are saying. its a simple fix also that can be added to a patch. I would think all they would be worried about is how much of a tomb increase is to much.

There isnt too much. It shouldnt be a grind for tokens. If they are going to force us to run those dungeons, they might as well make it rewarding. Im not in there for the gear, im in there for the tokens. That is poor design. The darklight gear should be the loot from those dungeons, not the crap that you do get from the bosses. In fact the tomestone idea itself is entirely horrible.

The second tier tomestones makes sense as a means to help people get gear through raiding. But it should be something people get in raids, as a means to help make up for a total lack drops over the longrun.

That is to say, you should be able to use the tokens (which should only be from raid bosses) to buy gear from the raid. This is in addition to the drops. It would help people to not feel absolutely like crap if they have bad drop luck.

And introductory raiding shouldnt be a wall. From what little Ive seen of the Bahamut raid, they made the first raid a wall. WoW did it right the first time. Molten Core was a faceroll, Onyxia was slightly harder, and then Blackwing Lair actually requied a bit of effort and skill. And then the 20 mans which were just good fun. And AQ and then Naxx...

From what the devs are saying about how hard they want their first raid to be, they skipped straight to Naxx.

What they COULD do to fix this is make the trash mobs drop 1-2 tomestones each. This would make players actually WANT to kill these mobs. And it would cut back on the absolutely overboard amount of time involved in this completely arbitrary grind that they put in our way to getting to the actual content in the game.

Coil isn't that hard. Watch video's before you say it's a wall. Turns 1-3 are pretty faceroll. Turn 4 is a good bit harder and it seems turn 5 is really hard.

But I do agree that the insanely stupid amount of tomestones you need to farm for darklight is now going to be every persons worst nightmare. I only have about 1k more to farm but thats a minimum of 10 castrum runs. And I say castrum because it's now more efficient to farm that then it is AK for darklight gear. Only time I will be doing AK is at the end of the week to finish capping out myth. But there are still ways to skip trash in AK. Just have to know how and what you can skip and can't skip. Run will still take min 45 mins which is total bs for the amount of tomes needed

Easy fix... they can reskin/ rework on every old dungeon and make a level-50 version of them. Give proper tome to the difficulty scale.

So that players will have choice to run 10x variety of dungeons not only the single one..
Amdapor Keep was really fun, and I love demon wall battle at first time... However, it is not anymore for me. I already clear this dungeon more than 20 bored and I really feel sick to keep doing it. However, I just want to get AF2 too much that I can't stop doing it. So it end up into the situation that I m very bored of this dungeon, but the reward still keep pushing me doing it. Now, this make the game no longer fun or entertaining.

Players don't mind doing content that cost a lot of time if they put some variety on it and make it entertain, and not so easy to get bored of.. the dungeon is totally the same every run they tired, so they feel bored, and want to get task done quickly instead. I personally not support speed run at first, but when thing get bored, I just can't help it but want to make pass this quickly.

I personally like speed run but I don't mind if it's normal run either. But I do hate the token design. Even the lowest token item such as rings or necklace cost 375 tomes. Let's see what WP gives for tome: 50 (I think or was it 55)? So in order to get just a ring, I need to run it 8 times successfully. Having to repeat the same thing day in and day out is really no fun. I don't do AK yet cause I still can't get lvl 50 SMN wpn drop from WP, I don't like to gimp party. And I can't buy GC wpn because in order for me to buy it, I need to finish AK duty. There's no other lvl 50 wpn except if you craft, so I have been crafting. It's very costly to get crafting to lvl 50 and we have no real way of making gil. You ask why not Ifirit hard mode? Well, I do that too but I have never seen a SMN wpn drop yet. But having to grind WP for 100 times to get all darklight = no fun.

Let's avoid bringing wow raids into this first of all, however i have to agree on a couple things at least give the level 50 dungeon mobs a drop of their own, give them a higher chance to drop HQ and normal, it's not much but anything is better than grinding away for absolutely no reward. Also make bloody items a roll, sick of seeing greedy players getting the bloody items another class needs :x for my scholar i've seen 8 grimoire bindings drop and no one was willing to toss one over, this has happened to DD's and tanks as well :x which is well entirely unfair xD especially when you have enough gil issues.

Part 1 of 2

First a few things are very wrong with your statements. Molten Core was not faceroll when it was released and people were progressing with gear from UBRS or Strat and other high level dungeons. It took guilds many months to clear MC.

Second is the fact that most people have pretty bad gear/jewelry when entering AK and you NEED that 60 gear in order to progress to be able to make fights like Garuda and Titan much more manageable. Considering most of the AOE's whether you dodge them or not hit anywhere from 2500-2800 which is most of your life in gear if you don't do AK to gear up a little. Coil is even less forgiving even with full Darklight.

Part 2 of 2

SE has the same mentality WoW did in vanilla only you can buy Darklight now which is way better than raiding with 39 other people and hoping loot you need drops and then further winning said item against your competition. People are wayy too entitles to think they should have to do almost nothing for gear these days or even just hitting 50. You're lucky they even give you artifact gear when leveling.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Onolock

Part 1 of 2

First a few things are very wrong with your statements. Molten Core was not faceroll when it was released and people were progressing with gear from UBRS or Strat and other high level dungeons. It took guilds many months to clear MC.

---

I feel bad for them. MC was a faceroll.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Onolock

Second is the fact that most people have pretty bad gear/jewelry when entering AK and you NEED that 60 gear in order to progress to be able to make fights like Garuda and Titan much more manageable. Considering most of the AOE's whether you dodge them or not hit anywhere from 2500-2800 which is most of your life in gear if you don't do AK to gear up a little. Coil is even less forgiving even with full Darklight.

---

The Darklight should be what drops in AK and WP. That was my argument.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by nimuniverse

-snip-

---

Honestly, there is no point to do WP after the first run. Just spam Ifrit till you get the wep then chain run AK for your gear and tomes. WP is a waste of a dungeon in it's current state and the only reason to run it is to pray for the shield drops since it's the only thing that is useful

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Onolock

Part 2 of 2

SE has the same mentality WoW did in vanilla only you can buy Darklight now which is way better than raiding with 39 other people and hoping loot you need drops and then further winning said item against your competition. People are wayy too entitles to think they should have to do almost nothing for gear these days or even just hitting 50. You're lucky they even give you artifact gear when leveling.

---

Yes, I went in to MC with UBRS, Strat and Scholo gear too. But thats the thing. I ran dungeons, got drops, and then went in to raids. I didnt run those dungeons 60+ times in order to get said gear with tokens.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Meleoron

I wanted to make a post so that we could talk without starting a flame war between people who wanted this change and people very upset it. Us yelling at each other is not going to help the community as a whole. It does not help the game that i assume most of us deeply enjoy. i will only make one point to each side.

For the people upset over speed running being gone, what did you expect SE to do? Skipping content was never going to be something a dev was going to be cool with. I would plea with you for patience. If this and the entire relaunch in general has taught us anything its that the staff is watching the game and trying to make it better always.

---

I wanted Square enix to give trash mobs some god damnned drops.

Trash Mobs give
-no loot
-no money
- More repairs

And for the coin, 2800 gil TOTAL for the entire party. Seriously, the hell is wrong with you devs?

And you want me to do this 65 times?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by civilpaw

Yes, I went in to MC with UBRS, Strat and Scholo gear too. But thats the thing. I ran dungeons, got drops, and then went in to raids. I didnt run those dungeons 60+ times in order to get said gear with tokens.

---

Agree'ing hardcore right here.

On a sidenote, WHY DOES NOTHING DROP MONEY. and if they do 1 gil? lol usrs?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MrFoxx

I wanted Square enix to give trash mobs some god damnned drops.

Trash Mobs give
-no loot
-no money
- More repairs

And for the coin, 2800 gil TOTAL for the entire party. Seriously, the hell is wrong with you devs?

And you want me to do this 65 times?

---

i don't want ya to do anything man i was just pointing that that a dev was not going to let people skip content for long. Other ways need to set to get the tomes however. I think that is beyond clear. like i said i just want this thread to be about throwing those ideas out there. lets build and not rip down.

I'm one of the people who are extremely frustrated by the new change. Looking just at combat (noting there are other worthwhile features in the game), the game just got very very boring. Yes, speed runs weren't the most riveting thing but they at least got you through the boring part faster. You basically need some AF1 gear to even have a remote chance against Titan HM. All this did was turn in a few day grind into a few week grind.

I've lost a huge amount of interest in progression because I'm not interested in running an extremely simple dungeon (AK) ad nauseum to obtain the throughput I need to progress. The game wasn't hard enough previously. Now it's easy and boring. If I wanted that I would be in a F2P game.

Now I'll just run Castrum until I just give up and cancel my sub. Great going guys. Are we going to see some content on this side of the game before winter?

I'm not at endgame so I'm just going on what people have said here, but if there's a token system, then gear you get from drops should be as good as token gear. the whole point of tokens is so a run isnt a waste if gear for you didn't drop, not so that running a dungeon is always boring grind for tokens so you can move on to harder stuff.

I really like the system in Secret World. Doing Normal dungeons or just questing will get you good enough stuff to get into Elite Dungeons. Getting drops from Elite will get you just powerful enough to fight the gatekeeper, who is unlocked after completing all Elites, and requires beating to access Nightmare. The gatekeeper is solo and a different fight for tanks, healers, and dps, and introduces the basics of all skills necessary to do NM dungeons for your role. The drops from each NM are good enough to get you to the harder ones, but they also drop tokens which let you buy NM gear which is upgradeable and has customizable stats

I feel like they are forcing a long grind so people have to play longer and keep up their subs but because the grind isn't interesting, it will do just the opposite. They probably would have been better off designing it from the start as buy to play so they wouldn't have to implement these kinds of mechanics. If people like the game, they WILL spend money on a cash shop, even just cosmetic items. there's plenty of proof in League of Legends, Guild Wars 2, Rift, and The Secret World that this is the case

Personally, I would have prefer that they make this game hard like FFXI when it came out. But then they have to make it easy due to WoW and people getting spoiled. Otherwise not many people would play a hard game and they won't make money. But yeah, I really hope they do that major upgrade every 3 months because it really would get boring having to do the same dungeon over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over ...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by nimuniverse

Personally, I would have prefer that they make this game hard like FFXI when it came out. But then they have to make it easy due to WoW and people getting spoiled. Otherwise not many people would play a hard game and they won't make money. But yeah, I really hope they do that major upgrade every 3 months because it really would get boring having to do the same dungeon over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over ...

---

What you call hard most people call boring. WoW has gone sorta welfare on us over the years, but if you want the best gear you still have to do heroic raids, and they dont just die because you want them to. Sadly, however, raid finder gear (aside from color) still looks the same as normal and heroic gear, which sorta makes the accomplishment feel a lot... less.

But here's the thing... 2-3 months is too far off. Its already boring from running the same dungeon over and over and over and over... and because now we cant speed run it, running them over and over and over also will take loads of time.

We should want to play the game for an extended period of time because its a fun distraction, not because dumping time in to it is the only way to get anything.

lol, nice use of over and over and over and over...
Currently what I find boring in this game is having to craft ALC to get item for my relic wpn. Never been a fun of crafting and sadly no one is selling in market. But yeah, having to run same dungeon over and over and over is boring whether it is with speed run or not.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by nimuniverse

lol, nice use of over and over and over and over...
Currently what I find boring in this game is having to craft ALC to get item for my relic wpn. Never been a fun of crafting and sadly no one is selling in market. But yeah, having to run same dungeon over and over and over is boring whether it is with speed run or not.

---

I actually like crafting in this game, but its also a huge grind. The system tho is fun. IMO. But ya, the speed runs werent exactly 'fun', but they were bearable. Running AK and having it take the better part of an hour is something I just wont do. Especially when I have another 45+ runs to go before I can get all my gear (for 1 job... well 2 i guess if I level Warrior).

Hopefully someone who can make the game fun again will read this post, because if they fix this blunder I wouldnt mind coming back.. but as of this patch, Ive logged out for the last time.

You are leaving, for real? The only game I had rage quit is SWTOR, after 1 month, after they changed the pvp bracket so that only level 50 can pvp with other level 50. The problem is well the ones on my server are slow at leveling. There's only 3 level 50 in republic and 25 in Empire. It requires at least 6 people to make a pvp game. I quit. But then I have not played mmo for more than a month because they sucks or it just me. I like the old MMOs where it takes forever to level and it feels like an achievement. To date, the only MMO that I have played for longer than 1 month are FFXI, WoW, Atlantica Online, DCUO, don't remember the rest probably because it's not note worthy. I have played AoC, Warhammer Online, Tera online, Secret World, Swtor, I don't remember the rest. But I think I will stick around for this game since I have not had a chance to do Bahamut yet. After that, I don't know. I hate repetitions as in crafting and doing same dungeon over and over.

The only people this hurts is the casual DF user. My static 4 man was waiting 25-30 minutes for the dungeon and clearing in 15.

We actually will gain time not having to wait as long in queue.

Well, now that a bunch of people have had speed runs for gear, this clearly slams the progress door shut behind them, putting a huge wall of time investment for others to catch up.

Secondly, only having one viable instance ot run is terrible.

Lastly, doing HM raids give pitiful stones... they should give more... and they should up the stones given on the instance- now that it takes forever.

Speed running was boring and repetitive... now it's just worse. A HM version of previous dungeons was a good idea to diversify. I don't expect a fully fleshed out end game this early... but one instance to repeat ad nauseum is pathetic.

Im not against having to kill trash at all... the issue i truly have is that the trash is worthless... for instance in Amdapor they drop 1 or 2 gil... Thats a joke of a drop. They give no xp, no potential loot drops, no money all around the trash is 100% worthless. It was great to be able to skip them but now we have to WASTE 30 minutes on nothing.

I started doing these dungeons on the weekends and well hearing this after only clearing AK once with my awesome free company aggravates the fuck out of me for the reason that doing this with randoms blows ass. I have probably done Wanderers Palace now over 20+ times and that how i got most of my tomes. I normally go bard i originally wanted to go SMN to AK but i kept hearing things from my friends that have run it and so on saying that SMN is the worst for AK, So i queue up as bard all the time.

Like i said I only beat AK once that was with my friends in the game, aside from that all the other times i have done it was with randoms who normally quit at Demon Wall. So yea this news pisses me off.

Now as for the change again its upsetting and i agree with alot of your opinions on the matter but one of you in particular is acting like a complete elitist which well thx for quitting. I have played the game since 1.0 this version is amazing better even but they dumbed it down WAY to much which even boggles my mind how new players dont know how to do the simplest things. Like I help when someone asks in /sh so on but just some of these ppl seem to need the game to get dumbed down more so which in now way is a good thing.

So yes make the trash mobs drop for more gil and 2-5 tomes per mob that would be worth us going through the dungeon 5+ times

Give us another way to get tomes like lvl 50 guildheists maybe or leves that require 8 man parties.

Give us Hard mode versions of the other dungeons like with random enemy placement cause personally knowing where the mobs are every time is mad boring, or hey make the bosses in before the main boss different like make a flame dragon and then the next time its an acid dragon or golem that spawns miny golems.

The Devs should have asked themselves "Why are people skipping content?" You could say it was to get tomes faster, that is one reason. The main reason is that the trash offers no real benefit. No experience, no gil, few drops. Why would anyone want to kill trash... This is where the Devs and gaming community seem to have a disconnect. If you make things meaningful, and worthwhile, most people will do it. If trash had a chance to drop addition loot/tomes/Allagan pieces more people would be interested in killing it. Maybe if you could gain experience towards another job. Add a bonus to the end of the dungeon for killing more trash. I could go on like this all day...

Give us Hard mode versions of the other dungeons like with random enemy placement cause personally knowing where the mobs are every time is mad boring, or hey make the bosses in before the main boss different like make a flame dragon and then the next time its an acid dragon or golem that spawns miny golems.

Seems like we are still fighting a budget shortfall for this game. New content costs money, right now I think they are probably doing all they can to keep things running with no funds.

That caveat aside remember they have to slow down the majority of the player population so that Crystal tower with ilevel 85 gear is still somewhat relevant. Your crazy folks who game as their chief hobby are going to find a way to get the ilevel 90 stuff anyway. So in a sense yes they are slamming the door shut on AK but only because they want the weekend warriors salivating for Crystal Tower.

They're keeping the grind until more content comes out. No real endgame if you don't count primals since Coil isn't meant to be cleared yet. Endgame right now is basically token grinding for the dream of doing Coil.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Desolas

They're keeping the grind until more content comes out. No real endgame if you don't count primals since Coil isn't meant to be cleared yet. Endgame right now is basically token grinding for the dream of doing Coil.

---

Which is why I am just spending the time leveling other classes.... right now it's nothing but people making fun of people that haven't sped run gear... and farming the same instances over and over. These people are going to be very mad when content DOES come out and they make it massively easier to get that gear they farmed for...then they will be QQing.

Oh well, I'll just keept leveling classes... because right now- there is no endgame, imo.