Need to be [Job] to run [Dungeon] and why people who think this are deluded

I think recently I've been running into the inclination that we (and by that I mean many initiator's of end game content) are running back into the path of 1.0's mentality of "A certain job is unable to perform the duties for this particular portion of content". Aside from those demanding experienced players two weeks into the game, they also are placing restrictions on what classes are deemed viable for certain content. While I personally think this is untrue, these are the examples I've heard from players.

Warrior:
- Warrior is unable to run Amdapor Keep since it is too hard to speed run and stay alive within a speed run (leading to mutiple wipes trying to make it to boss room)
- Warrior is unable to mitigte enough damage in the Garuda and Titan hard mode primal fights and is not accepted over a Paladin, who has better tools for reducing damage.

Scholar:

- Scholar is not preferred for Garuda hard mode battle, and is extremely ill advised to run Titan hard mode battle. Both reasons stem from White Mage being strictly better in all forms of healing potency. While it is true they have tools of mitigation, many believe these numbers are too low to warrant the raw healing power a White Mage provides to the party.

Summary:

Point of this post though is to ask you guys on the forums what you think. Is Warrior, who easily has 2-3k more HP than an equally geared paladin with 400% more self heal unable to run the same things? Does a Scholar's damage mitigation pale in comparison to White Mage's raw healing power?

TL;DR:

- If these jobs were truly incapable of doing their job for all levels of end game content, would SE have left them the same, even after testing the content themselves?

I'm a WAR, didn't have a problem running the first few speed runs in AK to boss rooms (after I learned it). That's more knowing when to sprint and having defiance up for more hp, a war that knows where to run should have 0 problem doing the first couple suicide runs to boss rooms. I've noticed many SCH being very good at what they do as well, many times better than WHMs I've ran with (this is mostly based on Wanderer's Palace runs though). Its all in knowing your job.

(also Inner Beast ftfw)

I do speedruns of AK plenty, and make it fine through the run, though some of the assumptions are true, it IS harder to do so as a warrior. The running part anyway. The sizable dps increase I bring to Demon Wall is a nice balance to that, as with a properly experienced/geared group, it goes down mind numbingly fast (I dont turn on defiance,and use my dps rotation until the bees spawn. My dps until that point adds to the total considerably). Running through the mobs, however, is harder. PLD's get blind on flash, which nulls ALOT of damage in the run(particularly the last stretch) and also have better defense cooldowns. As a war i rely on sprint timing and second wind/thrill of battle, etc to carry me through the last bit, but i make it fine. I can totally see where people are getting that idea from.

I've done AK with a Warrior, I've healed Garuda alongside a Scholar, and I've done Titan with both a Warrior and a Scholar. It can be more difficult at times, but it isn't impossible if everyone is doing their job.

There are certainly optimal jobs, but I've so far seen very few situations where there are impossible jobs. I can only really think of maybe one instance, and it isn't any of the primal fights - which I imagine we are talking about.

I'd love to see a dungeon that is easier to heal on WHM over SCH. So far, the game has repeatedly shown me that I have a much easier time on Scholar for anything. If it changes in endgame, I can't wait to see it, and then I'll push SCH's limits until I either break and change to my WHM, or figure out how to SCH heal those fights.

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Originally Posted by Chiraisu

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I speedrun AK just fine and my gear isn't amazing so... your wrong on that one.
I can tank the Garuda adds just fine and its what I do when i run that, I have not died prematurely yet. With that said, WAR main tanking in later game needs some help. Not every fight needs and off-tank.

Double scholar is bad, but scholar+white mage is better than double whitemage.

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Double scholar is bad, but scholar+white mage is better than double whitemage.

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This, holy hell is a SCH in the group with me amazing.

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Originally Posted by MrSmiley

I speedrun AK just fine and my gear isn't amazing so... your wrong on that one.
I can tank the Garuda adds just fine and its what I do when i run that, I have not died prematurely yet. With that said, WAR main tanking in later game needs some help. Not every fight needs and off-tank.

Double scholar is bad, but scholar+white mage is better than double whitemage.

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I think you misunderstood. I'm not the one making this accusations. I'm actually against it. Just needed to know what your opinions are. =P

Also, appreciate the experience of your Garuda battles.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJFz5oFH2PM

HM Garuda with WAR tanking and 2 SCH (no WHM) healing, all done with DF group.

People need be less bad.

I beat titan (hard) yesterday. We went in with 3 healers. Two were scholars and I was the only white mage. From the groups I have played with that worked great. Better than two Whitemage and one Scholar, but that is my own opinion. Maybe it doesn't have so much to do with the class, but the skill of players.

I've had no problems with any War's in amdapor keep as far as speed running goes.

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Originally Posted by Ragz

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJFz5oFH2PM

HM Garuda with WAR tanking and 2 SCH (no WHM) healing, all done with DF group.

People need be less bad.

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Edited. =P But thanks for this link.

I was also wondering why some wont do Ifrit hardmode without minimum two black mages. well atleast on my server. I had a friend bring this up as i just hit 50 and im wondering what in bloody hell does a black mage bring other than the spell resist n sleep. the former having a hefty timer. Then I never done the fight so those who have prob know something I do not.

Warrior is a great class to take through amdapor keep. the high HP pool and self health boost/healing skill along with foresight are more than enough to completely run every single mob on in the third portion after the demon wall. My FC even ran a DPS warrior and a paladin tank through AK with no issues and killed the demon wall about the same time the adds spawned. We ran a warrior DPS in titan and killed the heart w/o LB for the win. If anyone tells you warrior is ill suited for most stuff, they're doing it wrong.

Scholar is an excellent mitigation healer. period. People just need to learn how to make this class work for them and how to utilize everything it has to offer. We take a scholar in nearly all 8 man content.

I've ran AK speeds at least 100 times, probably 70% of those as warrior, with the rest split between scholar and paladin.

warrior is more than durable enough to train the trash up to the boss room for all 3 bosses, if you've seen a warrior fail to make the run to the final boss he was doing something wrong. (although I'll admit hallowed ground does trivialize this, warrior doesn'tr require a 5 minute cooldown to make their trip)

scholar is also a solid healer for garuda and titan, sacred soil coupled with Eos trivialize tumults - sure a whm can brute force through it with medica II > medica, but to make the fight real easy you bring one of each healer

...which requires me to bring up, my first titan kill i was tanking - as a warrior (and i've killed garuda several times as a warrior MT and warrior OT, she's a joke)

yes, mountain buster deals ~4500 damage completely unmitigated, a paladin most likely has either rampart or sentinel ready, and worst case foresight.

...but a warrior has an inner beast ready for each one of them. effectively mitigating the 4500 to a more manageable 3500

more to the point, that one whm you brought along for titan? dropping stoneskin on a 7200hp target is pretty effective at mitigating that 4500 damage hit, that happens at the exact same time, every time.

tldr; warriors are big. scholars are good.

When people make an untrue statement, I like to go out of my way to disprove it. People need to stop making blanket statements because of their personal experiences.

Here's a few untrue statements I have seen (just off the top of my head):
"You need to be a paladin to do an AK speed run." Nope. We do it with a warrior tank, without needing to clear anything. Oh, and scholar helps a lot with its shield mechanics.
"You should have a melee and a caster for AK because it's best to have a melee LB on the Demon Wall. A caster LB just won't work." Not true. I've done this several times with myself (as Summoner) and another person as another caster. Our DPS is so good that we nearly kill the Demon Wall before the bees even spawn. When they do, one of us waits until after the first new purple rotation (inside, outside) so we have time to use the LB, and then we AoE LB on the bees. After animation lock is over, we have just enough time to do the second purple rotation before getting ready for repel. The bees are usually dead by this point, with the wall not far behind.
"Scholar are bad for Garuda." Nah. Their AoE shield is actually really useful in certain parts of the fight... for example, right before Astral Flow (Aerial Blast). It's true that WHM does better 'raw' healing, but a lot of the damage you take in this fight is avoidable. For example, when the sisters come out, pay attention to your positioning and you'll save your healers a big headache.
"Summoner DPS is horrible." No. By the end of the fight, I am usually just below the tanks for hate. I actually like this because I don't trust randoms to know how to kite if the tanks die and the next person in the hate list has to stabilize the fight again. Also, if the healer is next in the hate list (below tanks), everyone is in trouble if the tanks die. As for fights with adds... there is always another way to be useful. For example, on Garuda phase one, a summoner should have DoTs up on Garuda and Bane her ASAP when the adds spawn on top of her. Then all DoTs are spread and you can focus your energy on picking off one at a time.
"You need amazing gear to tank Garuda." Nah. As much as I see people rage-quit duty finder the second they see a tank without the BEST gear, I know it is possible with okay gear. A few pieces of DL should be enough. Garuda didn't hit hard in 1.0 and she doesn't hit tanks hard in 2.0 (save for a few cooldowns, like slipstream).
"Scholars are sub-par healers." Not true. A lot of damage is avoidable, and the scholar shields are super helpful. However, scholar IS a new job, just like summoner. It is my theory that people think these two jobs are bad simply because every single person who is playing the job has only had access to it for less than a month. Some people are still learning. Some scholars don't know how to play super well yet. But... I've seen some great scholars, and they are just as capable.

I do my best to disprove blanket statements but there's only so much I can do alone.

I love it when people in game tell me my job is incapable of doing xyz... amuses me greatly. I was told other day that ACN is useless for anything but solo grinding. I reminded him of his attitude when we finished Ifrit an the fact that I....

Main healed the party when Whm kept desyncing
Main tanked Ifrit when the so called "Elite tank" (self styled) was unable to get its attention
Ressed 2 of them in combat inc the tank
AND DPS'd ....
After reminding him of his words when we finished, he ranted at me calling me some silly name about being black an gay... an logged out....

I always ignore people who try to tell me that I am useless, they are generally quite young, zero life experience an a HUGE ego. Ignore them an do your thing.

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Originally Posted by Shadowzanon

I was also wondering why some wont do Ifrit hardmode without minimum two black mages. well atleast on my server. I had a friend bring this up as i just hit 50 and im wondering what in bloody hell does a black mage bring other than the spell resist n sleep. the former having a hefty timer. Then I never done the fight so those who have prob know something I do not.

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I dunno about requiring two black mages, but people want someone who can use the Meteor limit break because it's a foolproof way to get rid of the Infernal Nails. Without it, you need to make a kill order and the DPS need to be reasonably geared, the latter of which might be a tall order until the iLevel requirements are added.

The funniest part is that my friend goes as SMN to Ifrit runs, has the same Limit Break as BLM, but people still immediately drop party because there is no BLM cause they are idiots.

I've heard numerous times that SMN is a bad DD because 'it seemed like we killed slower' or 'it seemed like it did less damage'. Then when you ask if everyone else was the same. Same jobs, same gear, same playstyles, or even better same people. They're like nerp. So just random prejudice for no reason at all. lol. People really need to assume everyone is equal at their role until something actually proves x is better than y. Feelings don't count here. lol.

Hi! WAR tank here! Let me just preface this by saying that most of the time I see comments about how certain classes cannot do things they were designed to do usually falls down to, 1) Elitism, 2) People who want to be carried, or 3) The uninformed making assumptions. Try not to mind them so much!

As for my response to the subject at hand: I speed run AK all the time. I rarely have issues sac running each section... and when I do it is usually because I mess up (wrong skills at wrong times) or I get unlucky with RNG (crits hurt!). Sure, it takes a bit more skill and planning than running through as PLD, but any issue I have is generally my muck-up (so many runs gets you a little trepidation). I've also main tanked and off tanked Garuda Hard with no issue (in fact a lot of people prefer that I main tank since I know exactly where to go each time).
I have a SCH in my FC that heals equally as well as our WHM (maybe more so due to their shields).
SMN DPS is powerful and nowhere near as bad as people say it is.

The list goes on. In the end I feel it boils down to more about player skill and ability, and that is something that it seems a lot of people don't want to take the time to learn or understand.

Anyone who doesnt want a scholar for Garuda hard mode is an idiot. When the sisters spawn you basically have a free tank for both of them if throw it in a corner and pop all of your faeries abilities and buffs, while the off tank builds hate. The second your fairy dies it will automatically be on the off tank if he isnt terrible and can actually get hate in the 10 second window that no one in the party but the person tanking garuda is taking any damage. Swiftcast and resummon your fairy and congratulations, you just got through the 2 sisters phase by putting in minimal work.

Youre welcome for the next level scholar strat.

I get a lot of the SMN discrimination. I'm pretty used to it as SMN was my main on FFXI since launch. All the same it's very unwarranted in this game. I may lack the burst damage of the blm but I more then make up for it with the fact that I can survive the hate I'm giving to the enemy, and by that cause more damage over time.

I'm kind of okay though, if SMN is looked at as weak it means less people playing and I can have my hipster class all over again haha.

Scholar is a SUPPORTIVE healer. not a direct healer, they're heavily needed with Garuda HM in all honesty as well as Titan.

The shield they cast is not only a lifesaver but the ability to nullify damage to all the party with one cast is also a very strong mechanic for both fights.

WAR are also decent tanks however theyre not designed to ''tank'' in terms of armour, they're designed to be withstand a strong hit and still carry on whereas paladins focus more towards kicks, stuns and so forth to counter enemies.

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Originally Posted by MiaBella

Anyone who doesnt want a scholar for Garuda hard mode is an idiot. When the sisters spawn you basically have a free tank for both of them if throw it in a corner and pop all of your faeries abilities and buffs, while the off tank builds hate. The second your fairy dies it will automatically be on the off tank if he isnt terrible and can actually get hate in the 10 second window that no one in the party but the person tanking garuda is taking any damage. Swiftcast and resummon your fairy and congratulations, you just got through the 2 sisters phase by putting in minimal work.

Youre welcome for the next level scholar strat.

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I totally love the fact Selene (or Eos) gets their own agro and often off-tank when tanks aren't on the top of their game. I'd rather re-summon them than raise someone!