The Tank and You! Part 1: Damage Dealers

Hello All,

I'm glad you're interested in playing FFXIV ARR and I hope you have many fun times!

I'm here to give a bit of advice for group play from the Tank's perspective.

1) Before engaging the Enemy inside a dungeon, it’s important to WAIT for the tank to rush in (hit the enemy) and grab aggro (gain enmity/threat). This usually takes 1-3 seconds for the Tank. If your Tank uses some kind of ranged ability, give him a chance to MELEE the target(s) before you go full attack mode.

2) While taking out multiple mobs, if your Tank is not dealing AoE* (Area of Effect) Damage, ONLY attack the same target that your Tank is hitting.
*Exception includes periodic AoE to keep aggro off healer

3) If you are Melee, stand behind or besides the enemy. DO NOT stand next to the Tank or on them.
If you are Ranged, try to avoid standing within a direct line behind the Tank or worse, in melee range.

4) overhealing generates more threat than most new tanks can, dont do it.

5) arcanists are not melee, keep yourself and your pet well away from the tank and the enemy, knocking the enemy away from the tank is not helpful at all

5a) Knocking Enemies away from your Tank only causes him to have to chase it or potentially getting adds(Additional Enemies).

6) Focus Fire, everyone should target the same target as the Tank, blms should sleep all other foe and they will stay cc'd until they're attacked*
*Exception includes a ADD or Enemy starts attacking the Healer. If the Tank does not respond quickly enough, DPS should move to intercept the Enemy just enough to pull aggro off the Healer.

6a) If you are fighting multiple groups of Enemies AND do not have enough DPS (Damage Per Second / Damage Dealers) to AoE all the Enemies down, it is best to put them to Sleep (Class Spell) if you have to.

6b) If you do not have the abilities to put the Enemies to Sleep AND do not have enough DPS to AoE all the Enemies down, it is VERY IMPORTANT to Target the Enemy the Tank is actively targeting or has marked with a symbol above the Enemies' head.

7) On the left side of the screen is a list of Engaged Enemies. This list shows general threat you have on each enemy currently engaged in combat with you. The icon will turn from a green circle - orange triangle - red triangle - red circle. green means the tank has full aggro and you can dps as hard as you can, the closer it gets to the red triangle the more you should slow down or even stop and let the tank build more threat on it.

7a) If you pay close attention to the Party Window, under each party members Icon, you will notice a small bar. This is the Threat Bar/Meter showing EXACTLY how much Enmity you have with specific Enemy you are targeting. This is Bar/Meter is very useful for all roles. This bar will fill and unfill throughout combat (especially on bosses) because it shows each Party Member's Percentage Enmity on a Single Enemy over the coarse of combat. If your Tank is doing really high damage and pulling a large amount of Enmity, your bar will be near empty or it will have only a small portion of it filled.

7b) NEVER GO FULL RED CIRCLE!

7c) It's ok to stop dealing damage for a moment if you are catching up to the Tank in Enmity, nobody is going to be upset with you. REMEMBER, taking aggro from the tank is not going to help the party.

8) If you do take aggro run to the tank and stand still, stop attacking, don't over-heal, just wait, do not run the other way back to the entrance indefinitely, it just wastes time*
*Exception I've seen in many cases where a wipe has occurred but was stopped by a clever healer. While the Tank is being Raised and healed, a DPS will Kite (Lead the Enemy(s)) away from the group or in circles till the Tank and Healer are ready to resume fighting. This is a desperate maneuver and should not actually be something you're willing to do. Typically skilled DPSers will resort to this should situations fall very dire.

9) Communication, co operation and understanding are the three most powerful tools in the game! If you are New to a dungeon or boss, feel free to ask for help "I'm new here" or "I've never done this boss before". This will give everyone a better mindset and majority of the time they will be more than willing to explain the fight so you all don't fail and have to try again!


Future Updates:
I'll try and supply images and clips of examples given above. Please give any tips for Damage Dealing Roles in this Thread. I'll be starting a Tanking Role Thread soon enough. STAY TUNED!

Contributors
NZ_Player

4/ overhealing generates more threat than most new tanks can, dont do it.

5/ arcanists are not melee, keep yourself and your pet well away from the tank and the enemy, knocking the enemy away from the tank is not helpful at all

6/ focus fire, everyone should target the same target as the tank, blms should sleep all other foe and they will stay cc'd until theyre attacked. whatever reason you may have for thinking its a good idea to attack another target other than what the tank is focused, is wrong, stop it.

7/ on the left side of the screen is a list of engaged enemy. this is a threat meter. the icon will turn from a green circle - orange triangle - red triangle - red circle. green means the tank has full aggro and you can dps as hard as you can, the closer it gets to the red triangle the more you should slow down or even stop and let the tank build more threat on it.
NEVER GO FULL RED CIRCLE!
its ok to stop for a moment, nobodys going to kick you, its not going to help the party at all if you take aggro from the tank.

8/ if you do take aggro run to the tank and stand still, stop attacking, dont overheal, just wait, do not run the other way back to the entrance indefinitely, it just wastes time

9/ communication, co operation and understanding are the three most powerful tools in the game, use them.

Thanks for the pickup on those, the 1000 word limit got me on my list :(

NZ_Player is correct, especially for Damage Dealers. #5 & 6 are very important to remember!

5a) Knocking Enemies away from your Tank only causes him to have to chase it or potentially getting adds(Additional Enemies).

6a) If you are fighting multiple groups of Enemies AND do not have enough DPS (Damage Per Second / Damage Dealers) to AoE all the Enemies down, it is best to put them to Sleep (Class Spell) if you have to.

6b) If you do not have the abilities to put the Enemies to Sleep AND do not have enough DPS to AoE all the Enemies down, it is VERY IMPORTANT to Target the Enemy the Tank is actively targeting or has marked with a symbol above the Enemies' head.

As a new tank I wish all DPS would read this thread. It is so true. When my team is patient and gives me time (still looking at the dmn buttons lol) the dungeons fly by so smooth. Yet when the Dps rush in before me or engage multiple targets it takes forever. Seems I spend all my time protecting the healer until the DPS die and I can finally get agro. I would offer 1 more suggestion to ranged DPS. Don't stand behind the healer so that healer is between you and the mob.

A good post someone from the RPC posted I'd like to share here for groups in general: http://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/showthr...56517#pid56517
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The main issue is that the average player is bad at teamwork. People tend to take on a "well it's his/her problem" mentality when it comes to taking responsibility in a group.

Let's use a patrol linking to a fight with a 4 man group of a WAR, WHM, BLM and MNK as an example. The patrol charges at the party, aggros the WHM due to healing aggro and kills him/her, resulting in a messy wipe. Whose fault is this?

The WAR, for picking a bad place to fight and not picking up the adds?
The WHM, for not Reposing the patrol as they got close and not running to the tank with the adds they aggro'd?
The BLM, for not using Sleep or Freeze to stop the patrol and controlling the adds in the first place?
The MNK, for fighting too close and not off tanking the patrol?

If you answered 5: All of the above, then you would be correct. Everyone needs to take responsibility. Rinh is completely right. People need to earn how to work together as a team and take responsibility and not only that, take initiative. I've prevented many messy wipes by being proactive with my Sleep on nearby patrols on BLM for example.

Giving each other tips and advice is another great thing. Like I didn't know that Bane from SMN or the Knockback from WHM don't break my sleep. So with that and some coordination from the WHM, we can sleep a mob that we aggro'd and punt it back to the tank to Flash/Provoke. Most tanks don't realise that Flash doesn't break sleep so there is no need to AoE with a BLM or WHM in the party. But they won't know that unless you tell them.

It is also very much work making friends ingame. Dungeon queues are short for everyone if you ask around and put together a group of 4 before queueing. It's even better if it is part of a regular group of people because a team that works together.

I always keep the following in mind in dungeons:

*Yelling gets you nowhere. There is a person behind every character
*Never assume malice when stupidity is why someone did something dumb.
*Never assume stupidity when inexperience is why someone did something dumb.
*Never assume inexperience when an honest mistake, lag or good old fashioned software/hardware failure is why someone did something dumb.
*Always assume that there is someone completely new to every group.
*Especially if they told you they have done the dungeon before.
*Speed Runs are only to be done in a premade group with people you are confident in and play well with.
*Wipes happen. Deal with it.
*Seriously, wipes happen even to the best groups. maybe someone made a mistake or lag happened. Sometimes in a boss fight bad luck happens when it comes to mechanics or the circumstances making it impossible to avoid damage. There have been plenty of times when a wipe happened, it was nobody's fault but someone still ragequits anyway.
*Take a break from the game regularly. no really, stepping away from the keyboard for about 15 mins is great for calming down after a stressful dungeon run.
*Practise makes permanent. Practise with guidance makes perfect. Don't be afraid to ask other players as to how they do things, or anything at all. it's always best to look silly for a moment then to live in ignorance.

As a tank and healer in this game, everyone just needs to listen to each other. If someone is more experienced than you and is giving you kind advice, take it and try it. I've run a few dungeons as a healer with first time tanks/dps and saying "wait a second, you should try this -" has really made things a lot easier. That and explaining what the white bars next to our names mean.

Communication is always key. I can't disagree with that!

I really wish mmos would have dungeoneering tutorials where every role and their relation to aggro/emnity would be explained. I feel it's ultimately the game's responsibility to educate players on these matters, not us players. As a tank player I've grown a thicker skin over the years but really, some people are just atrocious in their behavior towards tanks and healers. And even though dpsers are lovely expendable due to the infinite supply, there's no way to get rid of them from a group mid-instance in this game (is there?).

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Originally Posted by ThisIsACake

As a tank and healer in this game, everyone just needs to listen to each other. If someone is more experienced than you and is giving you kind advice, take it and try it. I've run a few dungeons as a healer with first time tanks/dps and saying "wait a second, you should try this -" has really made things a lot easier. That and explaining what the white bars next to our names mean.

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I agree with you its surprising how many people out there just go crazy when u try and give them some advice and it just knocks the party for 6, people just carnt work as a coherent team after some thing like that happens. Some people just have to remember that people are trying to help NOT be undermining. This is a great thread by the way i hope there's lots of views!!!! :)

I'm gonna be a bit cynical here and say that these kinds of threads don't necessarily help new players. I see so many threads and world chats instructing/abusing tanks that I'm worried about going back into raids in case I press the wrong button.

I did the first three story raids as a tank with only one casualty (myself), and with no knowledge of marking, positioning, or even how to use skills effectively. By the time I got to Copperbell, I'd worked out that some skills restore CP while some take it away. I learned that by screwing up.

If I hadn't run out of CP in that Copperbell boss room, I never would have realised that I was using skills in the wrong order. I apologised, and everything was fine.

There's far too much DO THIS!!! / DON'T DO THAT!!! and not enough acceptance of the fact that tanks (like all classes) are going to make mistakes - and that's the only way they're gonna learn. Sending new players into raids with a huge list of orders isn't helpful at all.

I Agree its not necessary but if you want to get better at tanking this thread will defo help now i picked up alot of this from other players helping me out on the other side you will need this info later on in the game its really helpful when you come to the likes of temple of quarn or cutters crag this info will save life's i swear!!! :D

Awesome post, as a tank all of these are excellent tips!
As a tank, I mark my kill target with an X and the next target with an O, when O is dead, you move to next X. I have bound these to my mouse so marking is fast and I announce at the start of the dungeon this plan too and everybody seems to follow it!

Avoid attacking mobs which are "sleeping". If someone "sleeps" a mob it takes that mob out of commission and allows focus on other mobs. What I'll do sometimes is wait for the tank to attack, then use an assist macro to make sure I know which mob the tank is attacking (in case its not obvious) and then sleep the other mob. Then the group can focus on 1 mob and the other mob just waits until the group is ready to deal with them.

If you sleep a mob then ppl attack it, it sort of defeats the purpose.

Some good tips flowing in here, keep them constructive and keep 'em coming. I made this thread specifically to give the Tanks perspective on DPS classes in game.

I'm not saying Tanks are perfect and will always know exactly what to do, but I just chose to reference Damage Dealers first. Mainly due to the fact that I've had a bad stroke of luck running with DPS since I started playing (I plan on posting something about Tanks and Healers soon)

Some really good tips here for everyone - thanks!

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Originally Posted by defraz

Thanks for the pickup on those, the 1000 word limit got me on my list :(

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There is one more good tip:

To overcome the 1000 char post limit simply first post the first part, then hit Edit button and add as much as you need / want. Enjoy! ;)

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Originally Posted by HEC

Some really good tips here for everyone - thanks!



There is one more good tip:

To overcome the 1000 char post limit simply first post the first part, then hit Edit button and add as much as you need / want. Enjoy! ;)

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Forum skills +1

Thanks for the tip, I don't usually post on the forums, just read. However I felt like perhaps it's time to throw in some help for all those who are new to the game! Cheers!

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Originally Posted by NZ_Player

6/ focus fire, everyone should target the same target as the tank, blms should sleep all other foe and they will stay cc'd until theyre attacked. whatever reason you may have for thinking its a good idea to attack another target other than what the tank is focused, is wrong, stop it.

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The only amendment to this is, I don't think there is any reason Not to use your DOT abilities on the other targets before going back to the tanks targets. provided the tank has already aggro-ed them. They don't do enough damage to pull the aggro to pull the target off the tank and the damage they take will make them quicker to kill, when there turn comes up. Though don't bother them if they have been put to sleep.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NZ_Player

8/ if you do take aggro run to the tank and stand still, stop attacking, dont overheal, just wait, do not run the other way back to the entrance indefinitely, it just wastes time

9/ communication, co operation and understanding are the three most powerful tools in the game, use them.

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This is what DPS players need to realize if they make the mistake on getting aggro (#8). As a tank, I find it very stressful to run after them as they run away from the mob they stole aggro. I haven't done the big dungeons yet so I can still somehow save them but I'll doubt the same will be applicable to the later dungeons/raids. It's also very helpful to follow the signs. Personally, I mark the ranged mob as "1" (first to kill) as much as possible (I don't get to party with players who use sleep that much so this is what I do) this allows me to focus on the melee mobs that have the tendency to run at the backline when aggro is stolen. It may not be the best tactic but it helps in keeping me from running around.

Next, Communication (#9). It's nice to plan on what to do on an encounter. Sure it takes a bit of time from the dungeon but definitely takes less than charging in without one (especially when you get wiped and you have to run back again >.>)

What classes have a CC ability? I know that Archer has a bind but ranged could still attack from that and THM has sleep, are there any others though pre job that has CC though?

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Originally Posted by Anarkh

What classes have a CC ability? I know that Archer has a bind but ranged could still attack from that and THM has sleep, are there any others though pre job that has CC though?

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IIRC, CNJ also has sleep. They get it in their pre-30s.

Agree about communication. Was in dungeon yesterday and swear someone other than tank was marking mobs as he would continually be on #2 or #3 while we were on #1.

You know its funny. There are generations of MMO players and many many MMOs that were released through the years. Yet every time new MMO comes out you have to explain all this to most of the people in PUGs like they've never played any MMO before...

if everyone adopts what has been said in this thread then our community will be a better place for everyone :)

I'm going to fix up the first post soon enough and add all the helpful tips others have given. If there are any questions about group play that people have, leave it in here and it'll get addressed and placed onto the first post.

Thanks for all the feedback folks.

Which skills add and which skill stake away? what order should Tanks use the skills? that would be helpful. thanks.

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Originally Posted by CrisGer

Which skills add and which skill stake away? what order should Tanks use the skills? that would be helpful. thanks.

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I'll start this thread up soon enough CrisGer, I'm noticing alot of people (In-game and out) wanting to see this. There are hints and tips within the Forum section for Tanking Roles. However, New players usually can't post in there or many are too busy posting about higher level content in there. So I'll be pulling information from across the forums and different people to help build a general guide in the New Player Forums :)

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Originally Posted by geopenguin

Agree about communication. Was in dungeon yesterday and swear someone other than tank was marking mobs as he would continually be on #2 or #3 while we were on #1.

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yea thats why i mention 'tanks target'
the default key is T which you can use to toggle back and fourth between the tank and its current target.

I made a very simplified version of what you're going for here for people who are completely new to MMOs in general (i.e. I wouldn't recommend it much to anyone over level 25) a week or two ago if you want to include a link to it in your main post for newbies. :)

Nice thread!