Speed Runs

Why?

You get gear so you can fight monsters. Yet you skip all the monsters to get gear.

I think this community is missing the point.

I hope they make this impossible soon. Pretty much ruins the entire points of an MMO.

A full set of AF2 costs about 3200 tomestones of mythology for each job. The joys of farming a dungeon the long way when you get 40 tomestones per run soon lose their sheen.

What are you going to fight with that gear exactly?

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Originally Posted by Lucroarna

What are you going to fight with that gear exactly?

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Hopefully the mobs in the Binding Coil of Bahamut and whatever other high level endgame comes along. Completing content the long way is fun the first few times, but long term farming it that way isn't.

You don't need that gear to fight the dungeon trash mobs. At level 50 you only lose (time and gear durability) when fighting them. It would be a different story if the non-boss monsters in level 50 dungeons would too be interesting and challenging in some ways and there would be tricks to and additional rewards from killing them (like in 1.0 where you got extra chests from killing certain monsters in certain order, for example). No one gears up just to kill some monsters which don't provide any challenge or rewards.

I prefer to get gear to be able to beat harder dungeons/primal/bosses.

Once they are beaten speed running boring old content is the fastest way to farm said gear so why not ? If you think fighting the same boring easy groups of monsters is fun after 5+ runs then I think you are in the minority i am afraid.

Also once you get to the binding coil of bahamut stage, there are many small bosses which require killing to be able to progress, so I don't see anything wrong with skipping the trash mobs in the easy dungeons.

Not this guy again. I'll try to use words you'll understand: dungeons are providing no source of income at the expense of progression. Trash (random monsters littered throughout a dungeon that provide no benefit other than experience or junk for vendor selling) provides no benefits whatsoever (no trash to vendor, no gil generated, some materials here or there, and no loot dropped) and has far reaching penalties: damaging armor. The majority of what items, which is very little, that dungeons generate cannot be sold for a decent amount of money generation, and what armor does come out of dungeons is simply being switched from one hand to another, and the taxes taken from those individuals is yet another gil sink on top of repairs.

All the previous issues aside, players run dungeons to progress in tier and difficulty. A player will run Wanders to progress to Keep, and from Keep to eventually The Crystal Tower; and only ever entering these dungeons for the vertical progression, challenge, and fun the boss fights bring. The majority of trash mobs have no mechanics, and simply are health pools to be burnt through, and are difficult for the sake of being difficult--a bad design also. The fault doesn't lay in the player's hands for avoiding tedious encounters, but the developer's for creating such poor mechanics or dungeon design, and with such steep penalties in place no player is going to want to invest time in matters that have negative or harmful effects. You, ofcourse OP, are the exception to the rule and others like you: masochist douche bags who believe their way is the only way to play--a sort of totalitarian point of view.

Your signature explains much of your mindset, ignorance, and self entitlement. I don't know if you post to increase your count, to simply cause hate, or because you're bored, but if you can't understand why players are farming dungeons for Allagan Tombstones, and why players are avoiding useless trash then you don't understand dungeons or their design: progression is the name of the game (either horizontally or vertically). No one gives a good GD about your anecdotes or rhetoric's.

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Originally Posted by Lucroarna

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Well... yeah.

I'm biased but I like speed runs. Especially as a tank, the repair rates are crazy expensive. Nearly went broke but got lucky with materia and sold them. Still broke but getting by barely. Can't wait for the update for repairs.

sorry but i much prefer speed running for 15-20 minutes than having a fail group of randoms take almost 2 hours to clear everything for 80/40 tomestones. you can have fun doing it the long way all you want.

that the first mmorpg that i see people act like this i must say (outside the V1 and FF11) most of the recent mmorpg are made with dungeon that you must farm for get whatever you need to get gears for be able to face harder content.
here people think is normal to...simply ignore a large part of the content simply for... not loose time? well i must say it's a weird way... i means what we do in an mmorpg is mostly loosing time.
all the stuff you will get will be outdated at the first extension and you will have to retake all to square 1.

what you will do when you will have all that magnificient gear? when you will have speedrun everything that possible? you will walk around in your magnificient gear doing...nothing and you will loose time! magnificient! really! simply brillant, you avoid to loose time for loose time later. i found it brillant!

anyway, let's be serious, instead to speedrun, why not say to SE: hellooo, only 1 dungeon to get out token is not enough... and the monster don't drop anything!!! do something?
no you prefer ignore the trash and speedrun... avoiding the true trouble of the game.

1) the amount of token needed for an armor is insanely too big.
2) never give only one dungeon for farm token... it's (sorry) stupid!

ohh yep, i don't like speedrun, ohhh i can do it easily, no trouble at this point... but i have feeling that i steal the game by doing it.

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

anyway, let's be serious, instead to speedrun, why not say to SE: hellooo, only 1 dungeon to get out token is not enough... and the monster don't drop anything!!! do something?
no you prefer ignore the trash and speedrun... avoiding the true trouble of the game.

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Actually theres more than one dungeon that gives tokens.
And since we have to farm them, AK is the fastest and most efficient way.

Lets say we do end up doing it the normal way. trash and all. On average, this way will take about 1 hour at least provided theres no wipes and the group is averagely equipped.

1 hour = 80 tomestones.
It takes about 3900 philo stones to fully gear a job using these stones.

that is roughly 48 hours or 48 runs of clearing trash mobs and bosses to fully gear.

Now with a speed run, which takes on average 20 minutes, you can fully gear in roughly 16-18 hours provided there are no wipes and low queue times.

i'll keep my speed runs.

As for "standing around with nothing to do." have fun running those 48 dungeons while i move into binding coil.

Repairs is the primary reason for it. Unfortunately you take damage to your gear just by being in combat and using any form of action at all.. Doesn't matter if you're hit, or even if you lose HP, your gear degrades.. There's no point in wasting gil if they aren't necessary to kill. Likewise the trash mobs drop nothing, no items, no gear, no seals, no tomestones, and not even experience because you're capped at that point. With nothing to gain from killing them and money to lose (not to mention time essentially wasted) there's just no point in it..

Mind you, this is coming from someone who is fine with taking it slow. I don't mind doing runs normally, and I don't bitch at people to do speed runs. I just see the reasoning behind it, and if my group wants to speed run I'm okay with it, because I understand exactly why they want to do it.

@krisan: don't get me wrong i'm sarcastic, but i understand the reason that make speedrun a nessecity.
but at the same time i don't want to see the futur content be speedrun... no i prefer SE to learn from him mistake and make changement for avoid this sort of...type of play.

Trying to understand what the rush is to a hardcorer, is like trying to explain to them the joys of going outside.... we're just two different peoples.

So you're going to speed run the next set of content, and the next set after that. To me that seems more like a drug addiction than enjoying a game.

Well obviously it's not right - I don't think even speed runners in most cases argue this. It's just that there's no incentive whatsoever to do it. In fact you're losing gil for spending the extra time in combat, and getting absolutely nothing from doing the fights. Of course a lot of people want to speed run, they don't want to waste their time, they want what's productive toward their goals, it only makes sense that there are going to be people who get tired of wasting gil and time just for the sake of doing it the correct way, and a lot of people have run out of patience - some faster than others.. Can we really fault them for that?

This isn't a problem with the community, this is a problem with the game design. SE needs to change the way dungeons work.. It's that simple. Rather than the patient having contempt toward the impatient, and the impatient bitching at the patient, we need to just acknowledge the game itself has a flaw in its design and it is up to SE to fix it - otherwise we're all just being silly arguing to one another about something that isn't either parties fault.

Mobs need to drop gear, or tomestones - probably tomestones above all else to really make everyone happy, but they need to do one or the other, or both. Gil would be nice too, even a marginal amount of gill would add up quickly enough to make most people happy. Or hell even, just make it where you can't progress until you clear a room - this is the least favorable option of all by far, but it at least plugs the hole. (It won't make people happy though, and is the riskiest of all options..)

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Originally Posted by Lucroarna

So you're going to speed run the next set of content, and the next set after that. To me that seems more like a drug addiction than enjoying a game.

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To be fair, speed running allows you to get to new fun content quicker. I haven't geared myself at all yet but i'd like to do some of those later dungeons since that's what i'll enjoy, doing the same dungeon for an hour 48 times or w/e that guy above said isn't enjoying a game either. It's not really that fun for some people and is just busy work to keep you paying instead.

Because it costs more durability as a tank, to fight the trash, than for me to suicide run through the entire dungeon.

There is absolutely nothing that the trash drops that rewards you for the efforts.

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Originally Posted by Tristaris

Because it costs more durability as a tank, to fight the trash, than for me to suicide run through the entire dungeon.

There is absolutely nothing that the trash drops that rewards you for the efforts.

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But what about that 1 gil?!

I think would be nice to clear everything if you get a boost on points, but since it's no happening and to collect them takes so much times, i think speed runs are a must.

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Originally Posted by Lucroarna

So you're going to speed run the next set of content, and the next set after that. To me that seems more like a drug addiction than enjoying a game.

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I think that mostly all the players have or will complete any dungeon the normal way a few times, so what you said here is really valid only to a point. And then, they speed up. Why? Cause it's more rewarding (dare I say fun) having more tomes in less time than doing the dungeon that they have completed the normal way a few times and experienced it fully. Two slower runs in 2 hours VS 4 speed runs in the same time (waiting times aside, ofc). For most people, this is a no choice situation. Less time, less grind, lower repair costs, more rewarding.... I'm actually puzzled why would anyone question people's choice to speed run dungeons really.

I am a person who despises speed runs, skipping trash, and any type of exploit. I speed run AK all day everyday because I am literally punished for playing the game as it was intended. There is too much trash, it takes longer to clear all the trash than it does to kill all 3 bosses in AK, and it takes too many tokens for a full set of gear(i'm ok with this personally, I like grindy, but I don't want to farm the same dungeon 60 times for 50 mins and receive no reward, and instead punishment from clearing the trash when I can do it in 20 ). It also costs me more in repairs by killing all the trash than skipping, because this games durability system PUNISHES you for PLAYING and not for DYING. Essentially no death penalty, why wouldn't I suicide as much as possible to skip encounters that cost me more gil than dying to them to get past them?

Fix the infinite trash, make them more rewarding, fix the horribly broken durability system and add a death penalty. Problem fixed.

I don't like speedruns. At all. Skipping monsters pisses me off, i'm the kind of guy that when sees some monsters in a dungeon needs to see panic and destruction unleashed upon them.

But this time it's understandable. AK is extrmeely long if you do all the trahs, you don't get ANYTHING for the effort but a large repair bill and that's it.
Again tough, turns out most speedrunners are complete and utter assholes. When they meet someone that's new instead of explaining shit it's just "LOLCYA", instead of teaching they act like entitled asses and that's just awfull. You wanna speedrun? teach people how to do so then. Or if you don't want to stick to your fucking fc, nobody needs you if you're just gonna be toxic to the community.

Then again i'd love to see an incentive to clear all the trash, like clearing certain numbers of mobs gives an increasingly growing amount of stones. 5 -> 10 -> 15 -> 20 -> 25 for example, making it faster to get your AF2 but at least giving you an incentive to kill trash.

I don't enjoy clearing AK trash 60 times while I farm up my tokens. I can literally heal through them while watching a video in my second monitor by this point.

I do enjoy killing AK bosses. I've done it 30 times and they're all still fun fights to heal. Heck I don't even mind teaching first-timers how to speedrun and how to kill the AK bosses, I do it all the time even if it means we'll wipe a few times while learning or spend just as long in the dungeon as a full clear. I'm not one of those people who will ditch/berate a party for queuing up in the duty finder without knowing the fights, because if I want a perfect 15 minute clear I'll form a premade instead. But clearing the trash is just not very fun for me at this point, not after I've run the dungeon so many times.

I receive absolutely nothing from the game for slogging through the part I don't enjoy (the trash) to get to the parts I do like (the bosses) except a larger repair bill. If the mobs dropped some gil so that you actually came out ahead by killing trash instead of with a massive loss, or if tokens were spread out such that more tomes could be obtained by clearing both the trash and the bosses, then I'd consider doing full clears. But otherwise, I (and most of the level 50 playerbase) will continue doing what is more efficient (and for many, more enjoyable).

I agree with speed runs. At the moment there is zero point in killing trash mobs.... why bother wasting the time it takes to kill them for no reward?

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Originally Posted by Pandamonious

I agree with speed runs. At the moment there is zero point in killing trash mobs.... why bother wasting the time it takes to kill them for no reward?

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The problem is not the speedrun it'self, but the assholes that comes with it.

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Originally Posted by Pandamonious

I agree with speed runs. At the moment there is zero point in killing trash mobs.... why bother wasting the time it takes to kill them for no reward?

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Because there will always be new players who aren't used to your speedruns. If you want to rush through with no fun allowed then do it in your FC.

OP, why does it hurt your feeling so much that people don't play the game your way? The people aren't at fault here, SE is. If they made the trash rewarding at all, people would do it. Make them drop gil. Give them a 2% chance to drop a good piece of gear or a tomestone of mythology. Anything to make people actually want to clear.

SE made it -punishing- to kill the trash. Even if you don't take a single hit, you lose durability because of invisible exp the enemy is worth. For what? a small chance at a 1 gil drop per mob? No thanks. I play a game to enjoy it, not to get punished. The answer isn't taking out speed runs, its making the non speed content rewarding and/or fun.