As a SMN, is it worth using Thunder?

Is it optimal for higher level SMNs to use Thunder or Aero or will they be too busy doing other things? I'm currently a 26 ACN and am curious.

SMN can't use Aero, only ACN.

Yes, it's worth it as it's an extra DOT that only takes 2.5 sec to cast. I do it after my usual rotation: Bio II > Miasma > Bio > Fester/Bane > Thunder

Good question.

I'd still have to test this out to see whether Thunder is worth the rotation.
The 2.5 sec cast time is a bit of an issue though, we could be using a lot of other skills within that 2.5 second...

yes, very much, though I give the other 3 dots more priority, after fester I cast it on the initial rotation then contagion. it's really strong.

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Originally Posted by mountaindew

Good question.

I'd still have to test this out to see whether Thunder is worth the rotation.
The 2.5 sec cast time is a bit of an issue though, we could be using a lot of other skills within that 2.5 second...

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Ruin is a 2.5s cast time.

If you're casting ruin, and Thunder isn't on the target, you should be casting Thunder instead. 80vs240 potency.

The only problem is in AoE situations or extended fights with adds. Thunder costs just as much MP as Shadow Flare. If you're having mana problems, it's best to cut out Thunder first. Edit: In AoE situations it's still better to Thunder each target(after baneing the normal DoTs) than to use Miasma II, unless there are at least 4 targets. Doing that ruins your mana, though, so it's situational.

Miasma II is pitiful, only 10 potency per tick. I only use it to tag stuff during FATEs and the occasional bind.

^Miasma II is comparable to ruin II in terms of damage and cast time, miasma II is 70 total potency, ruin II is 80 with 50 less mana, you're already on a dps up if you miasma at least 2 targets, a big dps increase if you miasma II 3+ targets.

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Originally Posted by glim

^Miasma II is comparable to ruin II in terms of damage and cast time, miasma II is 70 total potency, ruin II is 80 with 50 less mana, you're already on a dps up if you miasma at least 2 targets, a big dps increase if you miasma II 3+ targets.

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Miasma II is also useful single target when you're going to be using Contagion, as compared to a ruin/ruin II.

^why did I not think of this? another dps increase learned today!

any way I can just auto "obey" instead of "sic" on fights? I hate having to click on obey every time a fight starts.

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Originally Posted by glim

any way I can just auto "obey" instead of "sic" on fights? I hate having to click on obey every time a fight starts.

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I have it bound to one of my mouse keys.

So I just do MB3+2 to start. MB3 is just milliseconds before KB key 2, since commands don't work while casting.


After you make it "obey" the first time, it will always be on "Obey" until you need to re-summon it.

I still tell it to "Obey" on every encounter, though, because otherwise it won't start attacking until after the Bio II debuff is present on the mob(which is a loss of ~3s for the pet, so 1 auto attack skill).

So I've made it to 30.

My biggest issue with using Thunder is that it throws the DoT timers out of whack. Normally with Bio II > Miasma > Bio I, I'll refresh Bio I into Miasma into Bio II. The problem is thunder drops off sometime in between this.

Have you found any optimal way to refresh DoTs with Thunder present in your skills or should I just stick to refreshing the main three and then using Thunder whenever I can fit it in?

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Originally Posted by rzr22

So I've made it to 30.

My biggest issue with using Thunder is that it throws the DoT timers out of whack. Normally with Bio II > Miasma > Bio I, I'll refresh Bio I into Miasma into Bio II. The problem is thunder drops off sometime in between this.

Have you found any optimal way to refresh DoTs with Thunder present in your skills or should I just stick to refreshing the main three and then using Thunder whenever I can fit it in?

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The only timers that "clash" are Miasma and Thunder(most of the time), but keep in mind that they are both CASTS and have animation time. So if they both have 5s left on the timer, cast them both one after the other.

Those 3 DoTs should be a priority, but it hasn't been a problem keeping Thunder up as well.

Edit: This goes for Bio II, and Shadow Flare, too. You don't want to start casting when they're below 2.5s or less on their timer. You want to do it before that, otherwise there's a period of time where the DoT isn't on the target, and if the global DoT timer ticks--You missed that one.

I'm actually noticing the animation thing. If I Bane immediately after applying Bio I, it will not spread Bio I. I have to make sure to wait until I can see it on the enemy debuffs.

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Originally Posted by Kyronex

SMN can't use Aero, only ACN.

Yes, it's worth it as it's an extra DOT that only takes 2.5 sec to cast. I do it after my usual rotation: Bio II > Miasma > Bio > Fester/Bane > Thunder

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should be bio 2 > miasma > thunder > bio > fester/bane. this makes thunder and bio drop off within a second of each other.

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Originally Posted by Dixa

should be bio 2 > miasma > thunder > bio > fester/bane. this makes thunder and bio drop off within a second of each other.

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No.

Thunder -> Bio means you Fester/Bane a GCD later, which means you use Aetherflow a GCD later. It's a chain you don't want to start on. Maximizing Fester usage maximizes our DPS.

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Originally Posted by Kevee

No.

Thunder -> Bio means you Fester/Bane a GCD later, which means you use Aetherflow a GCD later. It's a chain you don't want to start on. Maximizing Fester usage maximizes our DPS.

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which matters almost nothing in the grand scheme of things, but matters a lot in managing dot re-application timing. the game has an internal 1s gcd on all abilities, even those off the gcd or with independent gcd's, this is why you cant hit rouse and spur instantly - you hit one and it's a second before the other will activate.

Dixa:
It's not 1 second. It's 0.5 second. If you don't believe, try macro /wait .5. I tried it from .1 sec to .5 sec. It triggers at .5 sec.

I personally do all 4 dots before nuking so that my biggest number which are all 4 dots are up and rolling

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Originally Posted by Kyronex

SMN can't use Aero, only ACN.

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Don't forget, SCH can use it.

So technically a scholar can do comparable dmg as a summoner if you tack on 5 dots + ruin. That's....not cool

Comparable damage? no. They focus on MND, not Int. They don't have Fester and most of their time is focused on healing. Yes they can put DoT. The same thing with WHM, they can put DoT, use Holy etc. But they also focus on healing. If WHM anc SCH cannot at least do damage, then how would they solo?

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Originally Posted by nimuniverse

Comparable damage? no. They focus on MND, not Int. They don't have Fester and most of their time is focused on healing. Yes they can put DoT. The same thing with WHM, they can put DoT, use Holy etc. But they also focus on healing. If WHM anc SCH cannot at least do damage, then how would they solo?

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Well if you consider 5 dots ticking for over 300ish dmg accumulative that's pretty close to a summoners total dmg with a pet. Its less for sure but not by much and yes o understand they have to have a way to solo but comparable, yes I'd say so having both classes and seeing it.

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Originally Posted by Rover1983

So technically a scholar can do comparable dmg as a summoner if you tack on 5 dots + ruin. That's....not cool

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Close, but not quite...Although the spell damage are similar with stance on, you forgot that SMN also has a pet that can provide about 30% additional DPS...

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Originally Posted by Rover1983

Well if you consider 5 dots ticking for over 300ish dmg accumulative that's pretty close to a summoners total dmg with a pet. Its less for sure but not by much and yes o understand they have to have a way to solo but comparable, yes I'd say so having both classes and seeing it.

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Scholars don't have fester.
Scholars don't have a pet that can attack. (can't use rouse+spur for damage)
Scholars can't get raging strikes.

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Originally Posted by fanservice

Scholars don't have fester.
Scholars don't have a pet that can attack. (can't use rouse+spur for damage)
Scholars can't get raging strikes.

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While I agree with everything you say, do look at the fact that scholars can put up more dots which accounts for the loss of the pet which is just an additional dot plus they can nuke with ruin plus the cleric stance. Now they don't get raging strikes but still switch to scholar and put up all 5 dots and nuke in cleric stance and you'll see there isn't as big of a gap as you think there would be. This might be intended because if you look at what they said in the last phase of beta notes, stats wide they didn't want a big difference between the two classes since the stats you choose as an arcanist are the same stats as scholar so all that int you put in carries over to scholar. Just noting what ive experienced as both classes. I think this is their intention. Not a big difference in classes.

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Originally Posted by Rover1983

While I agree with everything you say, do look at the fact that scholars can put up more dots which accounts for the loss of the pet which is just an additional dot plus they can nuke with ruin plus the cleric stance.

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Summoners can get thunder, and aero too. Again, there's still fester for summoners, which is a 300 potency nuke, on a 10 second recast, raging strikes, rouse, spur, contagion.

The only thing scholars have over summoners is cleric stance, and 30% more of their spell speed half of the time (which is about .1 second off of casts+recasts). It really shouldn't be close

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Originally Posted by Conradus

Don't forget, SCH can use it.

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This is a SMN thread, not SCH.

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Originally Posted by fanservice

Summoners can get thunder, and aero too.

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How can Summoners use Aero when they can't draw from CNJ skills? Like I mentioned earlier, only ACN can (as well as SCH).

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Originally Posted by Kyronex

This is a SMN thread, not SCH.



How can Summoners use Aero when they can't draw from CNJ skills? Like I mentioned earlier, only ACN can (as well as SCH).

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Mistake on my end from unlocking sch some time ago. Point still is sch damage isn't comparable to smn.

Is there some gap during casting SMN's various abilities that you would throw Thunder in there? I personally haven't played ACN much so it's just been confusing that a cross classed spell for DPS would be worthwhile to use.

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Originally Posted by Orophin

Is there some gap during casting SMN's various abilities that you would throw Thunder in there? I personally haven't played ACN much so it's just been confusing that a cross classed spell for DPS would be worthwhile to use.

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You could replace a ruin cast with thunder. Not sure if it's worth it though.

Seeing as I'm new to the class then is it safe to assume that

Bio II > Miasma > Bio > Fester/Bane > Thunder

is "the" rotation? Based on the masses?

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Originally Posted by Fliknboogers

Seeing as I'm new to the class then is it safe to assume that

Bio II > Miasma > Bio > Fester/Bane > Thunder

is "the" rotation? Based on the masses?

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Pretty much. Here's a variation of it for better dmg whenever those cooldowns are up.

Raging Strikes > Bio II > Miasma > Bio > Fester/Bane > Thunder > Contagion/Shining Emerald

See my rotation is:

Obey > RS > Bio II > Miasma > Thunder > Bio > Fester/Bane/contagion

Something i been thinking about is Miasma II. Seeing as Misasma II is instant cast, could i not do:

Obey > RS > Bio II > Miasma > Thunder > Bio > Fester/Bane > Miasma II > contagion

or simply time permitting

Obey > RS > Bio II > Miasma > Thunder > Bio > Miasma II > Fester/Bane/contagion - Though i fear with this, i will be losing a Fester from the GCD?

I usually cast Shadowflare after this rotation, i save Swiftcast for Raise. Someone always goes down in the worst possible times usually lol

Any thoughts?

Fester only counts the "primary 3" for damage, is therefore capped at 300 potency, and should never be delayed as you will miss out on having 2 festers inside an RS.

The opening rotation should be something like

Obey | RS -> Bio II -> Miasma -> Bio | Fester -> Thunder -> Miasma II | Contagion | Swiftcast -> Shadowflare -> Ruin II | Fester.

I only swiftcast the first shadowflare, because frankly, if someone dies less than 1 minute into the fight, you shouldn't be doing that fight lol, and it might not be worth recovering.

Contagion does not require a animation delay, it happens immediately as you give the order (however long your egi decides to take to actually do the order, is another matter), so you can fit in a swiftcast and then immediately shadowflare.

My thinking process is, have swiftcast up to react to failure, but do not plan for failure. So I swiftcast the RS, but keep it afterwards.

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

I only swiftcast the first shadowflare, because frankly, if someone dies less than 1 minute into the fight, you shouldn't be doing that fight lol

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titan HM duty Finder says helloooooo lol

And yeah i know it counts for the 3 primary, guess it makes sense. Of course what i need now is for SE to increase Aetherlow to over 9000 charges xD Fest/Bane/Energy Drain spam GO!