If i get a SSD as a secondary drive and install ffxiv arr to it it wont have OS on it would i still be able to run it and also increase my loading time?
Solid state hard drive question
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09-06-2013, 09:08 PMLethaltyrantSolid state hard drive question
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09-06-2013, 09:15 PMFaeonYes, I run my OS on my solid state, and my games on another set of drives (raided)Quote:
Originally Posted by Lethaltyrant
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09-06-2013, 09:16 PMLethaltyrant
ok ty i think i may do this then to increase my loading times literally my loading times are like an ungodly amount of time lol
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09-06-2013, 09:21 PMSlynkYes, assuming: 1) money's no issue for you (because the rapid read and writes to the SSD from playing an MMO will seriously reduce the life of the drive), 2) you have an extra sata port to even install the drive, and 3) you're not running on a SATA I system.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lethaltyrant
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09-06-2013, 09:35 PMworldofneilReading data doesn't cut away from the life of the drive, only writing, but I don't see how an MMO (or at least I don't see how this one) does massive amounts of writing for this to be a factor?Quote:
Originally Posted by Slynk
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09-06-2013, 09:41 PMSlynkTypically games like this have a disk cache for things like character models (since they are dynamically generated) as well as environment caches (since they are so large.) Video games have a strict memory limit to uphold and this is bypassed by disk caching.Quote:
Originally Posted by worldofneil
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09-06-2013, 09:53 PMLethaltyrant
Ok thank you for the info for now i may wait just to see i just ordered a new video card and way more powerful CPU im going from dual core to quad core 3.8 ghz i was asking about the SSD because i heard someone mention it about load times but i dont want to reinstall OS lol i might upgrade memory too since that is relatively cheap
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09-06-2013, 09:55 PMSlynkYou don't have to install your os on it, assuming you have an extra port for the drive. Just re-install FFXIV on it by itself. Make sure to format it properly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lethaltyrant
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09-06-2013, 09:57 PMworldofneilAh I see your logic, but no, like in FFXI all characters are rendered on the fly (or at least if they are cached, it's only in memory), there's definitely no disk caching involved :) Same for the environments, it loads enough of what's around you into RAM (explaining the ~1GB the game can use at times) and I believe it loads/releases more as you move around.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slynk
It does however write out the character data to disk every time your change your gear (and possibly when the condition degrades) to the My Games\FINAL FANTASY XIV - A REALM REBORN folder, although this data is pretty tiny and compared to the amount of writes Windows itself does (especially when it uses the pagefile), this game isn't really anything to worry about. -
09-06-2013, 09:58 PMSlynkAlso, if you post your system specs I (or others) could tell you where your bottleneck is. Upgrading components willy nilly doesn't necessarily result in an increase in performance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lethaltyrant
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09-06-2013, 10:00 PMLethaltyrant
-=-=-=-=-=-=- FFXIV Information -=-=-=-=-=-=-
MyDocument C:\Users\Christian\Documents
FINAL FANTASY XIV - A Realm Reborn C:\Program Files (x86)\SquareEnix
FINAL FANTASY XIV - A Realm Reborn Language 1 Region 2
ProxyEnable 0
ProxyServer unspecified
ProxyOverride unspecified
-=-=-=-=-=-=- System Information -=-=-=-=-=-=-
SYSTEM_OS Windows 8 64-bit (6.2, Build 9200) (9200.win8_gdr.130531-1504)
SYSTEM_CPU Intel(R) Pentium(R) CPU G645 @ 2.90GHz (2 CPUs), ~2.9GHz
SYSTEM_CORE_NUM SYSTEM_CORE_LOGIC 2 SYSTEM_CORE_PHYSICS 2
SYSTEM_BIOS 8.08
SYSTEM_LANGUAGE English (Regional Setting: English)
SYSTEM_MEMORY 4049.047MB
SYSTEM_VIRTUAL_MEMORY 2047.875MB
SYSTEM_PAGE_FILE 5723.887MB
SYSTEM_STORAGE C:\ SYSTEM_HARDDISK_DRIVE SYSTEM_TOTALDISC_SPACE 910.680GB SYSTEM_FREEDISC_SPACE 578.429GB
SYSTEM_STORAGE D:\ SYSTEM_HARDDISK_DRIVE SYSTEM_TOTALDISC_SPACE 19.356GB SYSTEM_FREEDISC_SPACE 2.419GB
SYSTEM_DIRECTX_VERSION DirectX 11
SYSTEM_GRAPHICS NVIDIA GeForce GT 610
SYSTEM_GRAPHICS_DEVICE \\.\DISPLAY2
SYSTEM_GRAPHICS_CHIP GeForce GT 610
SYSTEM_GRAPHICS_MAKER NVIDIA
SYSTEM_GRAPHICS_VRAM 1999.563 MB
SYSTEM_GRAPHICS_SHARED_VRAM 1768.523 MB
SYSTEM_GRAPHICS_DAC Integrated RAMDAC
SYSTEM_GRAPHICS_DISPLAY_MODE 1366 x 768 (32 bit) (60Hz)
SYSTEM_GRAPHICS_DRIVER nvd3dumx.dll,nvwgf2umx.dll,nvwgf2umx.dll,nvd3dum,nvwgf2um,nvwgf2um
SYSTEM_GRAPHICS_DRIVER_VERSION 9.18.0013.1106
SYSTEM_GRAPHICS_DRIVER_DATE 2/26/2013 12:32:38 AM
SYSTEM_GRAPHICS_DRIVER_LANGUAGE English
3.0
SYSTEM_GRAPHICS_PIXEL_SHADER 3.0
SYSTEM_GRAPHICS_VERTEX_TEXTURE SYSTEM_SUPPORT
SYSTEM_SOUND
SYSTEM_SOUND_DEVICE_ID
SYSTEM_SOUND_DEVICE_NAME
SYSTEM_SOUND_DRIVER_VERSION
SYSTEM_SOUND_DRIVER_LANGUAGE
SYSTEM_SOUND_DRIVER_DATE
SYSTEM_INPUT {6F1D2B60-D5A0-11CF-BFC7444553540000}
SYSTEM_INPUT_NAME Mouse
SYSTEM_INPUT_REMARKS SYSTEM_GAMEPAD_AXIS 3 SYSTEM_GAMEPAD_BUTTON 8 SYSTEM_GAMEPAD_FOV 0
SYSTEM_INPUT {6F1D2B61-D5A0-11CF-BFC7444553540000}
SYSTEM_INPUT_NAME Keyboard
SYSTEM_INPUT_REMARKS SYSTEM_GAMEPAD_AXIS 0 SYSTEM_GAMEPAD_BUTTON 128 SYSTEM_GAMEPAD_FOV 0
SYSTEM_INPUT {2FED2E80-7094-11E2-8001444553540000}
SYSTEM_INPUT_NAME USB Keyboard
SYSTEM_INPUT_REMARKS SYSTEM_GAMEPAD_AXIS 0 SYSTEM_GAMEPAD_BUTTON 573 SYSTEM_GAMEPAD_FOV 0
SYSTEM_INPUT {B02B4030-067D-11E3-8001444553540000}
SYSTEM_INPUT_NAME Controller (Afterglow Gamepad for Xbox 360)
SYSTEM_INPUT_REMARKS SYSTEM_GAMEPAD_AXIS 5 SYSTEM_GAMEPAD_BUTTON 10 SYSTEM_GAMEPAD_FOV 1
SYSTEM_INPUT {3004AE20-7094-11E2-8002444553540000}
SYSTEM_INPUT_NAME USB Keyboard
SYSTEM_INPUT_REMARKS SYSTEM_GAMEPAD_AXIS 0 SYSTEM_GAMEPAD_BUTTON 3 SYSTEM_GAMEPAD_FOV 0
SYSTEM_INPUT {60399380-CD50-11E2-8001444553540000}
SYSTEM_INPUT_NAME USB Receiver
SYSTEM_INPUT_REMARKS SYSTEM_GAMEPAD_AXIS 0 SYSTEM_GAMEPAD_BUTTON 0 SYSTEM_GAMEPAD_FOV 0
=-=-=-=-=-=- Proccess Information -=-=-=-=-=-=-
C:\Program Files (x86)\Common Files\Java\Java Update\jusched.exe 00001498
C:\Program Files (x86)\Google\Chrome\Application\chrome.exe 00001B38
C:\Program Files (x86)\Internet Explorer\IELowutil.exe 000008B8
C:\Program Files (x86)\SquareEnix\FINAL FANTASY XIV - A Realm Reborn\boot\ffxivsysinfo.exe 0000106C
C:\Program Files (x86)\TeamViewer\Version8\TeamViewer.exe 00000474
C:\Program Files\WindowsApps\36114Feras.ReddHub_5.8.0.0_neutral__f4gsjrqj9hqv6\ReddHub.exe 000013F4
Those are my current specs -
09-06-2013, 10:02 PMSlynkI'm not entirely sure it's rendered on the fly. If it is, they could see a big performance boost from cacheing the models. That would make sense why, on my girlfriend's computer, the game comes to a screeching halt during large fates with lots of players participating. There's also the LOD cache that does exist (it's in the options) but I don't know if it's memory or disk cache.Quote:
Originally Posted by worldofneil
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09-06-2013, 10:04 PMworldofneilDue to a RAID-1 rebuild hampering performance, I actually recently moved my FFXIV install from my mechanical 7200RPM drives to my SSD and was actually surprised because the game seems to take the same amount of time to load (although to be fair I didn't ever think it was slow before).Quote:
Originally Posted by Lethaltyrant
Before someone suggests, no my SSD isn't rubbish (120GB Corsair Force 3 GT) and my Windows install (which is also on it) boots up insanely fast. Having just watched the FFXIV process's disk activity for 10 minutes, it doesn't actually seem to use much disk activity at all, so unless you're finding the game unbearably slow for loading, I wouldn't bother spending your money on an SSD just for it. If you're going to spend money on an SSD do it right and reinstall Windows on it :)
You said about might add more memory, but didn't say how much you have. Possibly you don't have a lot and Windows is writing to the pagefile (virtual memory when the real memory runs out) which is causing you speed issues in which case adding more memory would fix that. -
09-06-2013, 10:04 PMSlynk
That processor is probably your biggest bottleneck:
http://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?...45+%40+2.90GHz -
09-06-2013, 10:08 PMLethaltyrantI have 4 gigs at the moment and was thinking of going to 8 possibleQuote:
Originally Posted by worldofneil
and slynk i figured the CPU was an issue it was an all in one package i bought at staples but i just bought this CPU expecting it in a few days Intel Core i5-3570 Ivy Bridge 3.4GHz (3.8GHz Turbo Boost) LGA 1155 77W Quad-Core Desktop Processor Intel HD Graphics 2500 BX80637i53570 -
09-06-2013, 10:08 PMworldofneilPossibly, but it's not that complicated to put a character together. They've got the basic engine already built for "assembling" characters so it's really just "character 1, head 5, skin 32, weapon 18,..." etc. And with the amount of gear changes in this game, how often are you likely to run into the same person with exactly the same gear?Quote:
Originally Posted by Slynk
The fate performance issue you mentioned is most likely graphics card related (can't cope with the amount of things going on) and I know people that have had that issue and they've said turning down the graphic settings have helped, I don't know if it'll help here, but worth a try?
That's interesting what you said about LOD cache, I hadn't noticed that until you said, although there's definitely no disk caching going on, so it must all be RAM based. -
09-06-2013, 10:12 PMZohnoReecho
You can use process monitor if you wanna see what an app is doing
http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/s.../bb896645.aspx -
09-06-2013, 10:12 PMworldofneil4->8GB will likely give your entire computer a speed boost with pretty much everything. I don't know for sure if it'll help with this game (it seems to use about 1GB give or take) so if you had a lot of other things running it might not have that 1GB to use and would be using the pagefile and slower.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lethaltyrant
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09-06-2013, 10:13 PMSlynkYou're forgetting all the transforms to the gear based on character size (height plus natural stature.) It's not a costly calculation for 1 character but when there are 20 on the screen, spawning particle effects, bogging down the audio engine, and causing network lag... that mesh cache could shave quite a few operations from the pipeline. *shrug* If they don't have it already, they'll probably write it in the future when they don't have as many pressing issues to tackle lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by worldofneil
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09-06-2013, 10:16 PMLethaltyrantThank you for the tip ill proabably grab another 4 gb stick and put it in i want to play the game with no issue and full enjoy the experience :) im hoping with all this upgrading ill be able to and enjoy other games as well with no issueQuote:
Originally Posted by worldofneil
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09-06-2013, 10:17 PMLethaltyrantI will have to try this tool plus i didnt know about this and it will help in my work as well thanks for thisQuote:
Originally Posted by ZohnoReecho
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09-06-2013, 10:31 PMworldofneilI mean you no disrespect, but I seriously doubt they will. They never did for FFXI and we had all the same things for that (different character styles and augmented gear - gear with different stats from the base gear) and that was designed for computers 10 years older.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slynk
With current day processors assembling a character into an engine built for generating characters really isn't that complicated, even with 50+ on the screen at a time. I honestly can't see it being the cause of much network lag either, since again each person is just component parts which are assembled on the client. The persons "name" is probably one of the biggest parts about the character data and assuming they're using a compression algorithm the whole random character as you go by is going to really tiny.
But if they cache the character then when the person ran by instead of saying "Here's X and his gear" you'd be querying the server and saying "I've got version 8 of Scott Pilgrim, what's the current version?" "Current version is number 10 here's the data for him" (sending it anyway). It's just messier and people change their gear so often, you can't cache that which is dynamic.
The graphic issues you speak of aren't anything to do with the character generation, that's literally down to graphics settings on the clients. It doesn't matter if I have 50 points in mind, or 300, my cure animation will look exactly the same regardless. Same for audio issues , I'm not exactly sure of what you're referring, but if you're saying the computer is having issues rendering graphics AND audio when there's only 20 people on the screen, might be worth turning down the graphics options and/or investing in a better CPU/graphics card (which I know no one ever wants to hear, but there isn't much else you can really do there). -
09-06-2013, 10:38 PMSlynkJust a quick rundown of rendering. Assuming you have your fps capped at 60fps, that means there are 60 render iterations every second. Rendering a character without caching goes something like this:Quote:
Originally Posted by worldofneil
1. Compile head mesh based on any mesh changes (chin, and nose are probably the only options)
2. Apply height transform.
3. Apply rotation + translation based on current animation
3. Render with appropriate textures for eyes, face paint, etc.
4. Load appropriate hair mesh.
5. Apply transforms
6. Render with appropriate color texture.
7. Load appropriate armor meshes.
6. Apply transforms based on size, stature, position, rotation, and animation offset.
7. Render with appropriate textures.
With caching you apply size and stature transforms once, and cache it in vram (graphics card memory.) And then just apply animation transforms to the cached mesh. It cuts out 2-3 operations per mesh (there's a mesh for the head, the hair, and every armor slot other than rings and soul crystal.) That's what, 10~ meshes to render? That saves any where from 20-30 operations per character rendered per render tick. Or roughly 1200 - 1800 operations per second per character. XD
Rendering pipelines are all about optimizations. That's why it would be surprising if they don't already cache these things. -
09-06-2013, 10:46 PMAstralenI'm amazed at how long the loading times are. In Beta I used to have my game on an external USB 3.0 drive and now I got it on a SATA3 SSD. It feels like the loading times are longer now than in beta and I think it's connected to the servers rather than the storage drive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lethaltyrant
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09-06-2013, 10:49 PMLethaltyrantWell at least i know its not only me with these long loading times when ever i go into a loading screen it feels like i could go to the kitchen make some food get a drink come back and then i can keep going (may be a little exaggerated but still lol)Quote:
Originally Posted by Astralen
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09-06-2013, 10:57 PMSlynk(Bottom up response because I'm too lazy to individually quote things to respond to XD)Quote:
Originally Posted by worldofneil
You have a finite amount of "oomph" to get everything done in the game before the next render tick, or you'll see an fps drop. 20 characters spawning 20 audio effects to play on top on all the audio effects the mobs are spawning on top of the bgm, *does* have an impact on the CPU which is doing the audio processing. You gotta think about this from a big picture perspective. There are so many subsystems working together and they are all using the same hardware to get their stuff done in time.
On the topic of caching characters, I'm going to assume you don't know what a hash map is, so I apologize if this comes off as condescending. But the rendering pipeline doesn't ask the server what to draw. The network updates the game state, and the redering happens on its own. The renderer says for each entity in the state, draw it. When it draws it, it first would look for a cached model to work (most likely using a hashmap to lookup which model to use), and then if it doesn't have one (called a cache miss), it makes one.
Network lag: Every player on the screen has to update the other players on the screen of what they are doing. Movement, moves they are executing, items they are using. They also have to all tell the server what they are doing so that it knows who should get aggro, who's hit by that AOE, are their attacks hitting? When 20 characters are affecting the state of a battle in the same area it *will* create lag. -
09-07-2013, 02:48 AMworldofneil
Thank you for the very detailed breakdown of how character rendering in the game probably works. To be honest I don't really know what to reply to that as none of us know for sure exactly how SE is doing it, I can neither agree nor refute what you've said. Given that the character models are very similar to FFXIs though (just better quality), I think they know what they're doing though.
The original thread however was about would an SSD speed up the game and we went off on a tangent about disk caching, which (for whatever reason) they don't use, so the only disk activity intentionally created by the game is reading data (and saving of character hotbars/gear sets).