Is Warrior viable for end game contents?

Hi there,

I am no where near end game, just preparing for it. From a lot of posts on this section and dungeon section it seems that warrior seems to be the inferior tank in the end game, needing perfect execution from the player to match an average paladin.

In the dungeon section the fc who cleared turn 1 and 2 of bahamut coil seems to use double paladin for all their clears. I know a few boss mechanics requires 2 tanks but why use paly/warrior when you can have 2 paladins? and obviously double warrior composition is unheard of.

I really like warrior in the mid 30s and paladin play style seems abit boring like all the other cookie cutter mmo tanks. But if no one wants a warrior in their raid what is the point?

Can some tanks or healers who have been thru most end game shed light on this topic please? Thank you

Viable? Yes

Ideal? No

If you want to be main tanking, be a paladin. Anyone who's min maxing is probably going to be using 2 paladins except if a fight comes up where having an offtank doing slightly more DPS would be useful.

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Originally Posted by Faction

Viable? Yes

Ideal? No

If you want to be main tanking, be a paladin. Anyone who's min maxing is probably going to be using 2 paladins except if a fight comes up where having an offtank doing slightly more DPS would be useful.

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And so it begins.

PLD ONRY. IF U WAR U BAD AND PLD IS TANK ONRY OKEY???? People can do whatever they want to do. Unless you are cutting edge and and bleeding end game, it won't matter. And even then, it probably still won't matter.

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Originally Posted by Faction

Viable? Yes

Ideal? No

If you want to be main tanking, be a paladin. Anyone who's min maxing is probably going to be using 2 paladins except if a fight comes up where having an offtank doing slightly more DPS would be useful.

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lol what

your funny

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Originally Posted by Faction

war = an offtank doing slightly more DPS

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lol ok

10 characters.

WAR are viable end game as MT.The question will be if your grop will want you over a PLD.

WAR is a great endgame MT. Beefy & puts out damage. Don't listen to that poster. Doin' it wrong. ;)

I agree,WAR is viable for end game, all depend of the player skill, for end game with 8 players, WAR and PLD can make a great duo, PLD who is strong to manage single target, and WAR who is perfect to manage groups of adds. Two tank classes very efficient when they are well played.

There would be an easy way to solve this debate for double tank situations :
- give a defensive bonus (like -10% dmg) to tanks only when they are not of the same job. Would make PLD+WAR mandatory for double tank situations.

GLA Aura : gives 10% damage reduction to WAR, MRD, GLA and PLD. Stacks with one additionnal MRD aura.
MRD Aura : gives 10% damage reduction to WAR, MRD, GLA and PLD. Stacks with one additionnal PLD aura.

Things need to be clear, if one guys has a shield and another don't, it will be hard to make the crowd believe that both are on par with tanking.

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Originally Posted by Insidious

And so it begins.

PLD ONRY. IF U WAR U BAD AND PLD IS TANK ONRY OKEY???? People can do whatever they want to do. Unless you are cutting edge and and bleeding end game, it won't matter. And even then, it probably still won't matter.

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Wow, you get pretty fucken' angry at being told how it is, don't you? Why are you so angry? It doesn't make sense at all. Are players supposed to pretend imbalance doesn't exist because you (theorize) that you could still 'get by' with the inferior option? Would that make your face less red?

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Originally Posted by gigi_frana

lol ok

10 characters.

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People really love to pretend that a tank outputting 10-15k more damage over the course of a 10 minute fight is significant at all, don't they? Totally worth the trade off, right? Just a ridiculous thing to even mention in a discussion about the relative strength of endgame main tanks.

Even if it was, you do realize that if the healers need to heal less, then they can spend more time dpsing, resulting in higher group dps output, right?

I love how everyone just loves to pretend that games they love to an irrational degree are perfectly balanced. Having an objective discussion with such people is impossible.

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Originally Posted by Faction

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Seems like you are the one getting angry. You have other level 50s telling you that you are wrong. If you are that impressed with PLD then go level one up.

You did not even have a discussion on this. You came in and started swearing on your reply, which shows that you are quite lacking in the mental faculties department. You do not have any kind of proof to back your claim up (really more like lack of claim). Give us some actual researched numbers to back your claim up.

I highly doubt you are that versed in endgame raids. Its only been a week and there is no one bragging about doing them yet. So I think you should just take your attitude and shove it. You are coming off like the tanks that are just bad going its that the class is inferior to the other tanking class. If you are getting passed over for dungeons or raids in you FC that might be that you may be known as a crappy tank among them.

I have main tanked and off tanked most of the end game fights now and i can say that when off tanking i almost have to stop my best dps rotation from finishing due to how much hate i generate. For the past day or so i have had to actually asked the other tank even if it was a pal to off tank so i can play my class to its potential. mar/war might be little bit more squishy than pals but between my self heals and rotating my one def cd i can def keep my self on par taking terms single target or multi-targeting tanking and stay alive the entire fight.

From what I've seen it depends on the fight I guess.

Like ifirit hard mode, I prefer to be the on tank because I can easily get aggro up really high on Ifirit, survive all of his moves with ease and if things go to hell, I have a couple of hp stealing moves and buffs that may end up saving the day. It also free's up the Paladin to be on stun duty which is a must for that fight.

In another fight, I prefered to be the off tank chasing after the mobs that were attacking the dps when they had to do some special objective.

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Originally Posted by Faction

Even if it was, you do realize that if the healers need to heal less, then they can spend more time dpsing, resulting in higher group dps output, right?

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If I wanted to DPS I wouldn't have rolled a healer, Gimme that sexy warrior.

It really comes down to the group. I mean undergeared a PLD will be seen as better due to the damage reduction abilitites they have. Equal or Over geared, a Warrior will be better because they do more damage over the course of the fight. More damage = less mob uptime = faster clears. This is how it has been for raiding in pretty much every other game. At the start, use the tank that takes less damage so people learn the mechanics. After everyone is geared from the content and it is on "farm" status, use whatever clears it the fastest.

I dunno I think Warrior will end up being better. If they have more DPS then they will definitely end up as the better tank. High DPS tanks matter, it means things clear faster and die faster.

The ability to sponge damage is only 1/3 of the tank triangle. Sponge, DPS, Threat.

WAR self-healing is very strong.

If anything, I tend to get cured too much on WAR. lol

Warriors are viable but not always needed. Paladin's are pretty much always needed. From a party perspective it is obviously better to be a class that is always needed.

War tanks are great. To be honest my self heals have saved so many fights, i mean if u have 5 wrath and unleash up u can double heal and get close to 2k health back if ur lucky

How many here chipping in on the discussion have actually cleared Titan Hard??

Sure WAR is a viable Tank...but Rock Buster hitting a WAR for 4k instant shows where the priority in the fight lies. In the Coil of Bahamut the adds of the first boss (ADS) can one shot a WAR who is below 4.5k Health...that's a regular hit plus the move that deals that damage. Damage Mitigation>self-heals. At least right now considering the Bosses AFTER Garuda.

On our fights nobody cares that WAR has the bigger HP pool, it's not about who has most HP, it's about who will survive despite the HP pool and PLD is the better one to heal. And WAR having 5 Wrath Inner Beast -> Infuriate->Inner Beast healing himself for 2k in a matter of 5seconds is nothing anybody cares about. 2k will be healed by 2 Healers in a matter of 2 seconds.

PS: If you are in the Coil of Bahamut tanking as WAR I'm interested in your opinion and your experience. If you haven't seen anything after Garuda, please leave the discussion for those who actually experienced it first hand. Cause between Garuda and Titan there is a huge difference and even moreso in the Coil of Bahamut.

PPS: You can't Duty Finder Coil of Bahamut. You have to be in an organized FC and/or find PUGs that actually know their stuff ;)

My FC regularly clears Titan with a WAR main tank. You need two tanks for BCoB you get one shotted in there as PLD. (Should be noted that our WAR tank has 7110 HP base

Ok I'm not quite 50 yet and haven't done end game but a PLD buddy constantly doing end game loves having a WAR in the party to switch off tank / main tank with.

EDIT: a level 50 WAR under 4.5k HP? O_o I've got that at 45...

"Can't tank end game content as Warrior."

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Challenge accepted.

Haven't had any problems tanking so far, tbh sounds like I made a mistake rolling WAR over PLD according to this forum.

Just beat Titan myself on WAR. It's some hot stuff. Just have to know what you're doing... Which should be pretty obvious.

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Originally Posted by DeadInkPen

Seems like you are the one getting angry.
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You do not have any kind of proof to back your claim up
...
blah blah blah

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I have to comment here;
Faction came on and posted her opinion, and then several people got angry and flamed her for it. They did not provide any proof to back up their opinions, they just stated them in the most insulting manner they could think of. Faction's second post was a response to the horrid disrespect that was shown to her. You're the one who needs to take your attitude and shove it.

Now on the point of the thread:
The fundamental problem with Warriors is that a big health pool and low mitigation makes life hard on the healer. They're playing with much larger numbers and that's intimidating. It feels safer to heal a PLD back to full for 500HP after the big hit than healing a WAR back to 75% for 500HP and pray to the gods he self-heals the rest. That being said, I believe WARs are just as good at main-tanking as PLDs are, and those who think otherwise and kick a WAR from the group in favor of a PLD are simply too narrow-minded to understand that.

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Originally Posted by ZenBear

It feels safer to heal a PLD back to full for 500HP after the big hit than healing a WAR back to 75% for 500HP and pray to the gods he self-heals the rest.

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If you want to get technical, if you're healing a PAL for 500, you'd be healing a WAR for 575. The only healing that the WAR would need to do to make up for the mitigation v. +hp/+healing disparity would be to provide 25 points of self healing.

I think that high damage mitigation is superior to higher hp. I also think that MRD is a lot more fun than GLA, but I would be kidding myself if I said I didn't think that PLD wasn't the overall more efficient tank.

Not having a PLD to stun Ifrit is stupid. Ifrit's Eruption has a ~2s cast time and WAR's Brutal Swing has an animation time between 1.5s-2s before stun hits. If your latency is over 300ms, you can forget about ever interrupting Eruption. Nevermind the fact that its on a 30s cooldown, and that stun has diminishing returns so coordination in a PUG to prevent the diminish is nonexistant.

If the content is a tank and spank, WAR is fine. Our problem is simply a lack of tools for end game.

Me and another War just traded stuns with no issues not even 1 got off. You just need competent tanks!

I'm a Paladin but I would always want a Warrior in my group. If it's a Ifrit Hardmode, I would stun while Warrior main tank. If it's Garuda hardmode, I would main tank while Warrior handle the adds.

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Originally Posted by NoctisCaelus

I'm a Paladin but I would always want a Warrior in my group. If it's a Ifrit Hardmode, I would stun while Warrior main tank. If it's Garuda hardmode, I would main tank while Warrior handle the adds.

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what about titan? you dps and let warrior MT?

I like oranges because they taste better!!!

Nuh uh! Apples are the best flavor!!!

Been playing MMOs far too long to realize that, the best tank is the one in the hands of the capable player. Min-Max all you want but dev teams don't design fights around one valid tank. They just don't.

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Originally Posted by Heroicbandit

the best tank is the one in the hands of the capable player

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this is the most stupid theory on the internet. apparently you dont have ANY mmo endgame experience at all.

bring the player not the class, blah blah blah

i call bullshit on that.

best player will always play the best class, end of story.

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Originally Posted by hola

this is the most stupid theory on the internet. apparently you dont have ANY mmo endgame experience at all.

bring the player not the class, blah blah blah

i call bullshit on that.

best player will always play the best class, end of story.

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Been in progression guilds with realm firsts and bear tanks but ok. Based on your other posts it's clear you're certainly not here to make any friends. If the tank isn't viable, its the failing of the developer, not the intent. Got it?

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Originally Posted by hola

this is the most stupid theory on the internet. apparently you dont have ANY mmo endgame experience at all.

bring the player not the class, blah blah blah

i call bullshit on that.

best player will always play the best class, end of story.

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No, good players will play classes they are capable and that arnt horribly gimp. That doesn't mean they will flock to FoTM classes in any MMO. Usually the bad players flock to whatever is deemed "best (x) for (x)"

It is typically the guild, not the player, that opts to bring the classes that make the encounters trivial just for that "world first" status. The players of the class that take the time to learn the ins and outs of their class will rise above the rest when that class is considered, but should not switch to some other class simply because its "op". Also do not forget that BCoB is ilvl 80+ content, and we only have ilvl 70 gear right now.

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Originally Posted by Griffeth

It is typically the guild, not the player, that opts to bring the classes that make the encounters trivial just for that "world first" status. The players of the class that take the time to learn the ins and outs of their class will rise above the rest when that class is considered, but should not switch to some other class simply because its "op". Also do not forget that BCoB is ilvl 80+ content, and we only have ilvl 70 gear right now.

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Bingo. Min-Maxing doesn't define player skill, it defines optimization for things such as world firsts. Devs should fix what's broken with both classes but keep them separate. I'm so sick of homogenization. Fix issues for the weak job abilities but don't make my WAR feel like a PLD.

I currently do not see problems with the warrior. I get hit harder but have abilities that I can use to save my own ass if the healer is doing something else. Ran an instance last night (cutter's cry). Monk kept dying to the Chimera blue spell and the WHM was rezzing him. I took a large hit from something and poped 2 abilities and was back at 3/4 HP from 1/4. Can a paladin do that? :p

Would I love 20% flat mitigation? Of course who wouldnt. But that would be the tank class that I signed up for

So pretty much what I see happening is this: Warriors will complain till they get ilvl80 gear, because in ilvl70 they dont do so well in Coil. After acquiring ilvl80 gear warriors will be the go to tank, due to dmg and not getting blasted anymore..then pallies will complain about warriors being OP until the next instance where pallies will do better at the start.

Its basically like every other MMO ever. Tanks with shields/high mitigation are used until a dungeon/raid is on farm or well known..then dps style tanks are brought in to make the fights go much faster. Circle of life.

And that is the base problem with games today. Everyone expects to be 100% the same, but with the old school RPG style games, which FF is based on, certain classes were better at specific jobs and other classes were worse at them.

Tanking content that you are not geared for: Go with a paladin
Tanking content that you are over geared for: Go with a warrior
Tanking content that you are correctly geared for: Pick whatever one you really want to...