I pretty much only come here to view the posts from the Dev Tracker, but it seems that whenever I do I always see some sort of argument brought forth about the information being insufficient by someone, followed by a rebuttal that amounts to an opinion that the above mentioned someone is an ungrateful poo poo head. By explaining what I think goes on at SE, I thought maybe I could convince one or two people that they're doing what they can.
Almost certainly, rule at the office is one of committee. Yoshi-P may be roughly in charge, but he's not the only voice that matters. Good leadership, I think, requires a lot more listening than it does talking. After all, you're putting together a lot of people with not only different opinions, but with vastly different skills and abilities, and trying to guide them as a unit toward a common goal. For an example of how difficult that can be, you only have to check the discussions on this very board. Very few are ever resolved with consensus. Even so, consensus must be reached at SE before development can even begin. When a Dev posts to say "We're discussing it", they mean it. You don't get to see how much effort is put into these discussions, but you can be assured that "We're discussing it." is a serious understatement of that effort.
The second thing I see people complain about is the lack of timelines or solid dates. Ideally, we'd have those, but situations are very rarely ideal. They say "Haste makes waste". Having a fixed date for things is eventually going to put pressure on people to rush produce something. Isn't that what it feels like got us into this situation in the first place? I think it feels like the game was rushed out the door to satisfy an arbitrary date, at least, and it's not a mistake I'd like to see repeated. Instead of being negative, though, I like to look at the current situation as a big opportunity for the creative types among us to influence the game while developers take the time to implement those influences properly.
Lastly, I find the Dev tracker to be enormously informative. I can get some little bit of information about what's going on at the head quarters almost every day. Even if it's just what is being discussed or what topics are being thought about, I feel more a part of Square's development team than I ever have. I also feel an honest good-faith effort to make right what went wrong. I genuinely feel a fondness for this development team and Yoshi-P. I have faith in them, and I don't think that faith will go unrewarded.
Learning to be Patient with SE Dev Communication.
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04-23-2011, 04:54 AMValarianLearning to be Patient with SE Dev Communication.
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04-23-2011, 05:03 AMBetelgeuzah
Bottom line is: You don't want to hear about concepts. Concepts never manifest 1:1 in reality, so it is pointless to talk about them unless you want to be disappointed and think "how X could have been if only......". Realizing the concepts takes time, and only near the finish line can they seriously sit down and talk to us about the features.
It's even more problematic with the rehauls as they come in two parts. Even when the first part is done it's still kind of iffy and may not end up working like they thought. Determining what can be and has been already realized and what is still a dream in Matsui's head is not simple. Specific features such as death penalties are easier to plan, but they do not have such luxury with the majority of the combat rehaul. Everything is being changed simultaneously, and it is a fluid process. You change X, you affect Y Z and C. If D doesn't make it, F has to be left out as well. -
04-23-2011, 05:05 AMXeno
The main problem that most of the players are having is
A. They want a rough timeline
B. They want more specific info
the reasons we are behaving like this is because ever since launch they have constantly said, "It'll be good soon guys, please be patient," well we, the fanbase, have a hard time being patient over 7 months! To explain the second part, all the info that SE ever gives us is, "Hey were doing this" "Hey look forward to this" "You'll get information about it soon!" but the thing is we still don't know how companies work, we don't know how the new job system will work, we don't know anything except that what me may or may not want is coming...eventually... -
04-23-2011, 05:08 AMBetelgeuzahThe problem is that neither do devs. They have their concepts. They have their plans. They are probably implementing said plans as we speak (okay, come Monday). But as far as how the system will end up, they are as clueless as we are.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xeno
We don't want to be told info that may not be accurate. We want a timeline, we want more specific info, and most importantly, we want accurate info. The latter is simply impossible to deliver before much closer to the actual day of implementation. -
04-23-2011, 05:12 AMSigmakan
Still think a ROUGH timeline would be very helpful and appreciated by the fans. Don't see why the Dev team cant put one together. Obviously it cant be too specific with details or dates.
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04-23-2011, 05:13 AMCairdeas
SE is more transparent and more forthcoming with information now then most developers once their game is 6 months in.
Some games like Korean localizations never get contact from devs.
We should be thankful. -
04-23-2011, 05:13 AMXenoI personally wouldn't mind being told info like, ".... well we're not sure if it will work that way but we'll see!" Plus, isn't the new battle system coming in 1.18 or 1.19? I'm sure they have a pretty good idea of what they're doing considering the fact that they've been working on it for a few months now and it's only a few weeks away from launch. We know auto-attack is coming but that's about all we know about the new battle system.Quote:
Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah
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04-23-2011, 05:16 AMBetelgeuzah-Rehauls come in two parts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigmakan
-First combat rehaul to come in Spring, alongside the dungeons.
-The next combat rehaul to come few months later.
What else do you need to know?
SE has only two answers: "Yes", or "No." There are no gray areas for the community. They are considering, they made a promise. They don't implement it, they broke the promise. That is how the community works, for good and for bad.Quote:
I personally wouldn't mind being told info like, ".... well we're not sure if it will work that way but we'll see!"
We received a lot of this kind of information before the game went live. Most of the features presented to us did not end up in the game or were completely irrelevant because they were not properly realized. They sounded good on paper but did not work out in reality. It makes no sense to give us this sort of information when there's a good chance that's how it'll end up either way. We'll get hyped, then it gets crushed. -
04-23-2011, 05:31 AMJamel-IriefEverything in this topic makes sense and good logic, but how come in other MMO's these things doesn't seem to be a problem. I.e. Aion patch notes are giving months before being patched in game, sometimes they don't hold the timelime but everything in patch notes is exactly as it becomes in the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah
Tanaka's old roadmap didn't have any real definite timeline (other then "2011"), and for me that roadmap was a very good indication of were the game was heading, slowly or not. Some of the gripe from players (including me) seems to come from not knowing the general direction of the game (will it be like WOW? Will it be like FFXI? etc. etc.)
I'm sure the devs are working as hard as possible (why wouldn't they?), but when beta testing a game, if you want to make community feedback a priority, it's a good idea to tell people where the game is heading.
Not demanding anything... Just wanted to make that clear :)
Well written OP nonetheless! -
04-23-2011, 05:44 AMBetelgeuzahI don't know what exactly you mean here, but in Aion the Western version is updated months after the Korean version, and thus the patch notes are identical. The games are also not rehauling existing features.Quote:
Everything in this topic makes sense and good logic, but how come in other MMO's these things doesn't seem to be a problem.
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04-23-2011, 05:44 AMBlaiseLallaiseIf you can do that, then you're better than I.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valarian
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04-23-2011, 05:52 AMSilvertearRenQuoted for fu*kin' truth.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cairdeas
Blade & Soul, anyone? They're going into Korean Closed Beta Test this month, and they haven't even once considered tapping anyone outside Korea for western feedback - it's obvious B&S plans on going for an NA launch, but they are decidedly using closed-loop development processes that fails to take in proper feedback for their target audiences.
It's this kind of mentality that gets me riled up about asian game developers.
When we're seeing more transparency from Square Enix, I'm able to cut them some slack.
Also, as a response to Jamel-Ibref's statement about patch notes being released months in advance before it is implemented, this is due to the Korean and NA development teams being separated. Koreans get the patches first, and then it has to be localized and adjusted to work for the NA servers. Hence why the patch notes are released so early.
Surely this would have been obvious? -
04-23-2011, 08:03 AMPeppinoTuna
I've been a customer of Perfect World Entertainment for about two years. They don't have the kind of communication Square Enix is providing to it's customers. It is thrilling for Square Enix to give us information and hope for new things to come. It has helped make me a loyal customer to Square Enix. ^_^
I'm not used to see this kind of thing in any of the Chinese/Korean online games I play. -
04-23-2011, 08:17 AMZenaku
Most people on here are just like this girl
http://img811.imageshack.us/i/74934465.jpg/ -
04-23-2011, 08:43 AMMug
I think people just want a carrot - something solid to look forward to. But we don't know if it even is a carrot. Or an orange. Or a dried up old prune.
They're being very vague about everything, which to a point is understandable, but the whole patience thing is wearing thin after seven months of waiting. -
04-23-2011, 12:22 PMAbriaelYou obviously haven't been around the forums of games the developers of which were so unprofessional as to give the "rough timeline" you demand (bad, bad error in game development) and were eaten alive when such timeline happened to slip (because in development timelines slip a lot, and often).Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigmakan
It's simply a no no for any dev worth his salt. You simply don't promise stuff that isn't finalyzed, and considering how much wrong can be found during testing, timelines are the last thing that get finalyzed.
It's funny how some have such immense troubles in understanding this very, very simple concept. -
04-23-2011, 12:57 PMSigmakanAppreciate the condescending tone!Quote:
Originally Posted by Abriael
They were off to a good start with those large tables in the first few dev letters. Would like to see updated versions of those.
Or were those unprofessional as well? -
04-23-2011, 01:24 PMXeno[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XIV FORUM Guidelines.] I would like to see a new table like the ones from the first letter since Yoshi-P said those were his 2-3 month goals and it's been about 2-3 months since we got the updated table.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigmakan
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04-23-2011, 06:04 PMAbriaelIf you mean the ones in november, you saw the results of those table. The plans changed, and people continue to flame them over and over because they did. This is exactly the result of giving "rough timeframes" and long-term information that wasn't yet finalyzed out of panic for a bad release.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigmakan
On the other hand, if you mean the tables Yoshida had in his letters, those are obsolete now. The "in development" forum has exactly the same contents.
so funny to see how some stubbornly refuse to hear some realism.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xeno
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04-23-2011, 06:06 PMBetelgeuzahThe tables were easier to read and all the information was nicely compiled instead of hiding behind individual threads, so I don't think they are obsolete. I hope Yoshida keeps posting them, after 1.18 would be a good time for another.Quote:
Originally Posted by Abriael
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04-23-2011, 06:15 PMAbriael1: there's less space in the tables, so they're even less informativeQuote:
Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah
2: they can only be updated alongside yoshida's letter, making them less flexible
3: what exactly is hard to read in a forum format where new features and updates are added on top? -
04-23-2011, 06:17 PMBetelgeuzahIt is a nice compilation of information that the current forum threads do not offer (because you have to go to each thread individually, which makes browsing cumbersome), and the closest we can get to a road-map at this point. It is not obsolete.Quote:
Originally Posted by Abriael
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04-23-2011, 06:29 PMAbriael"please, yoshida-san, waste time that you could use actually working on the game to compile a less informative version of something we already have!"Quote:
Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah
Because the fact that when he posts in the forums he does so at 2 AM already shows that he has plenty time to waste, right? :D -
04-23-2011, 06:42 PMSpellbinderI usually tend to agree with your posts Abriael, but here I really think you need to tone down the attitude that your posting suggests. As Yoshida has already had to point out in one of his letters due to all the rage and arguing, there are various teams with various tasks all working together to create this game. Who is to say there is no team that works on the website who could work to consolidate information in an easy to view table on the main page.Quote:
Originally Posted by Abriael
As Betelgeuzah already stated, a table would serve as a simplified compilation to give anyone who sees it a quick idea of what goals have been completed it, what goals have been set, and what goals are currently being worked on.Quote:
1: there's less space in the tables, so they're even less informative
Assuming they were only updated alongside a letter, a milestone of progress from letter to letter is still nothing to sneeze at. Hypothetically speaking, what if there was a page on the site dedicated simply to the table and occasionally changing the status of its contents as progress is made?Quote:
2: they can only be updated alongside yoshida's letter, making them less flexible
While perhaps not hard to read, it is safe to assume that generally speaking not everyone bothers to look at the website for any given game very often, and even fewer actually populate official forums if there are any. Creating other outlets to show people "hey, this is what we have planned, this is what we're working on, and this is what is finished" would only help.Quote:
3: what exactly is hard to read in a forum format where new features and updates are added on top?
We need less "no, doing X is stupid and a waste of time" and more "I don't think X would be a good way to go, but maybe Y wouldn't be so bad". -
04-23-2011, 06:44 PMBetelgeuzahYeah, you don't agree. That doesn't make it obsolete, sorry to tell you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Abriael
And you act like you think it's Yoshida who compiles that information for us. He must be the one creating those nice poll charts and job armor concepts as well. Everything in that letter must be hand-crafted by Him. -
04-23-2011, 06:47 PMAbriael
@Spellbinder: The detail you're missing is that they're working on limited time and resources, with a whole game to overhaul. I would say it's better for them to focus on that, instead of wasting those resources in something that adds nothing, but just advantages those that can't be bothered to check a very accessible forum that has *all* the info included in the tables, and more.
Besides, they alrerady tried to adress the visibility issue by posting dev threads on the top page, receiving a storm of insults for that, as usual.
Because you know, right?Quote:
And you act like you think it's Yoshida who compiles that information for us. He must be the one creating those nice poll charts and job armor concepts as well. Everything in that letter must be hand-crafted by Him.
Besides, even if someone else compiled it, it's quite obviously that now that someone has been redirected to doing something more useful. -
04-23-2011, 06:56 PMBetelgeuzahDoesn't make it any less obsolete. You can disagree all you want, the forum threads do not make the table obsolete.Quote:
Originally Posted by Abriael
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04-23-2011, 07:02 PMSpellbinderOf course their resources are limited, I'd like to think no one would assume otherwise. But what of their web designers? I'd like to think it's not that big of a stretch to make a web page with a table on it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Abriael
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04-23-2011, 07:08 PMMasamune
This forum is a tool used for SE to communicate with the players. Many people condone players asking the dev's for any sort of info, though this is what this tool should be used for. They want to know what players want, and some want more info on the development of this game. This could have just been done by having players start a poll of a question such as "Is auto-attack wanted in this game?" and having players respond with a yes or a no. They instead gave us the option for creativity in our responses so we could possibly help or contribute to the posters (maybe even dev's) idea. The only problem I see with asking a question is the manner in which it is asked and the manner in which people respond to said question.
Go ahead and ask your questions! Just do it nicely and don't expect a response. -
04-23-2011, 07:11 PMAbriaelInformation has to be compiled, compiling information involves a lot more than just a lone web designer in an office. It involves taking the time of the team leads (all of them), in order to collect that information, and doing so whenever the table needs to be compiled.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spellbinder
On the other hand, the forum structure is more flexible, as the team lead can give the information at their own convenience when they have a bit of free time, and the relevant thread can be edited immediately.
Mind you, even web designers have been quite busy. They have been working on improving the lodestone functionalities on a regular base, and the forums as well. It's not that those are sitting in their offices scratching their bellies. -
04-23-2011, 07:20 PMSpellbinderNow I'm no programmer / designer / whatever, but I'm just going off what you're giving me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Abriael
First, I don't see why the team leaders actions should be dictated by when the table would need to be compiled when the information could simply be pulled off of the forum where compiling has already been done.
Example: (very simple example mind you)
Hypothetically speaking we have a page with a table similar to the one from Yoshi-P's letter with simplified information based on whats in the development threads on the forum, and the forum is checked every 2-3 weeks for any changes in status. If there is nothing new, that section of the table is not changed, if there is something new, it can be changed.
I'm just a simple mind with simple ideas here, so if it doesn't pan out, I welcome the perspective of those that do this sort of thing with better insight to how it works.
I already see a reply of "why pull from the forums when they could just look at the forums", but I'm just thinking of another means of easily conveying what the developers are working on. (and I apologize for this being so off topic) -
04-23-2011, 07:34 PMAbriaelThat's pretty much the problem. I don't assume that the ones working on the forums and website don't have their hands full already. This forum is in beta, and new features have been added periodically, the same goes for the lodestone.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spellbinder
To add to that, probably the web team works on limited resources as well, and it's more than possible that it's shared with other SE games.
Honestly I'd rather them work on actually useful features like letting me click on page numbers on the side of threads, or letting me display my equipment on my lodestone page.
This thread was stemmed by very specific complaints, and the ease of availability of the info is not one of those. People want MORE information, and precise timeframes, reaching peaks of unbearable lack of realism. Ease of access to tables that effectively give *less* information for reasons of space is not really the problem.