Something for Square Enix to Read

158. Under Article 26, should the goods fail to conform with the sales contract, the consumer is entitled to: a) repair or replacement; b) a price reduction; or c) rescission (termination) of the contract. In the first instance, the trader has the choice of remedying the problem by either repair or replacement, which means that the consumer does not have the automatic right to reject the goods and claim a refund. Should neither repair nor replacement be possible, the consumer may then choose between price reduction and rescission, although rescission is not an option for minor defects.

159. Under a "second tier" of remedies, the consumer may resort to repair, replacement, price reduction or rescission if the trader: a) refuses to remedy the problem; b) fails to remedy the problem within a "reasonable time"; c) has tried to remedy the problem, causing "significant inconvenience" to the consumer; or if d) the same defect has reappeared more than once within a short period of time.

article 159 from the parliament link below i think it was has been met can we get a price reduction or compensation for the service and lack of, or be at least more transparent on the issues and lay out on the forum more whats going on, when people can expect to get on and do such. Early Access was a Advertised item for preordering and the end user is left repeatedly button bashing to hopefully connect or be sent back to the main menu.

More Details SE! Give us more of an idea whats going on, as we cant have this happen at launch day get it sorted!.
http://www.lawyerlocator.co.uk/lawye...nsumer-rights/

http://www.thrings.com/site/news_eve...w_not_fit.html
http://www.publications.parliament.u.../126/12610.htm
http://www.commerce.wa.gov.au/consum...r_purpose.html

this i like~!

If everyone screams for a refund or compensation of some sort square would certainly get the message the community is NOT happy.

They are fixing it....the problem does not exist on your end. Technically the product received works...just the servers aren't taking the stress from hundreds of thousands of people logging in all at the same time, effectively DDOSing them.. Its not a magical fix in which you can just snap your fingers and it be done. If you had any idea about how server architecture works you would be patient. Almost every MMO I've ever played or heard about has had launch day/week issues...Hell Blizzard has them anytime they launch an expansion pack (Which is rigorously beta tested)....People are just too bloody impatient to wait for a fix and gotta get their fix in now.

The only problem, that i see of course, is that the first 30 days of game time is free and you only paid for the game itself, to play the game that is

your "rights" dont start until you have an active game time subscription mate

sry good try though

incorrect the point of sale included the Early Access as part of the sales contract made with Square enix and the end consumer, you can't play the game due to the fact you cant connect to the required services which are faulty and they haven't repaired it in a reasonable time frame.

But if anything SE should read up on it and ensure there are 0 issues at Launch day or they will regardless fail under the fit for purpose flag

I thought this might be about refunds.

I've seen this topic for every MMO Ive ever played at launch and it's not going to go anywhere here either.

Don't like people with your attitude. Why resort to suing and compensation without first acknowledging the nature of the goods? They are trying to fix the issues since the product is not broke but the services are not able to withstand the burden.

Maintenance is under way so technically they are trying to resolve the issue without having to resort to refunds or compensations. Duh!

Unfortunately SE (and every other software publisher) gets around this by forcing everyone to agree that the software is provided "as is" and that their customers have no legal recourse to hold them accountable when their software doesn't work.

In fact, according to the license agreement, we don't even own the software that we paid for. We are all at the mercy of SE and there's nothing we can do about it. We paid our money, so the joke's on us.

I don't mean to be rude or stepping on toes or anything but I'm sure when they put together their 20 page ToA they 'tied this knot' somewhere along the way.

But yeah its still early we'll see.

It hasn't even been two days. 2 days! And in 2 more days it'll be officially released. Now if this persists for a week, then I'd say you have a legitimate reason to go running down to SE's offices with torches and pitch forks. Until then just sit tight with the rest of us.

Sadly for SE your local consumer rights normaly take precident over Terms and conditons, they can write up some stuff i am sure but the consumer is protected regardless.

That's pretty much the message.

Basically no matter how awesome of an armchair lawyer you might fancy yourself, SE and any other outfit are going to have a solid way of going "Yeah, no dice. Sorry".

There are laws that protect consumers for a reason..
The people who think no one has a right to complain, are just children or simply too ignorant, to know any better.

Cash tendered for services rendered.
That's how the world works..
Not cash tendered for services not delivered..
Period..

Hang in there a bit and let them try to fix it though.
Don't just jump on the refund band wagon..

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Originally Posted by Svichi

It hasn't even been two days. 2 days! And in 2 more days it'll be officially released. Now if this persists for a week, then I'd say you have a legitimate reason to go running down to SE's offices with torches and pitch forks. Until then just sit tight with the rest of us.

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That's the thing a lot of people are failing to grasp. I understand we're all upset and annoyed over this inconvenience but we have to remember they didn't even have to GIVE us an early access to begin with. What is happening right now means this game is a lot more popular than they thought it would be, which is good. If this continues to happen a week from now then there is justification to be 'Up in arms'. A lot of people venting and complaining are the ones who haven't experienced launch games for online games. No I'm not talking about just any launch game I'm talking about POPULAR online games.

Just give SE a chance guys let them fix this before release. Although if you're so hellbent on jumping ship on a game you claim to enjoy and support on its early access then good riddance. Less queue time for people on the more popular servers.

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Originally Posted by Eekiki

Unfortunately SE (and every other software publisher) gets around this by forcing everyone to agree that the software is provided "as is" and that their customers have no legal recourse to hold them accountable when their software doesn't work.

In fact, according to the license agreement, we don't even own the software that we paid for. We are all at the mercy of SE and there's nothing we can do about it. We paid our money, so the joke's on us.

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Actually in Australia that may not actually be the case. It is very well established that "despite what is in a contract, there may be terms and conditions outside that agreement that the law imposes. For example, it's no use having a clause saying 'no refunds' when the law actually gives people a non-excludable right to a refund under certain circumstances".

And changes in Consumer and Fair Trading Laws treat many online purchases as subject to the laws of the purchaser's location rather than that of the seller i.e. if you buy it from an online site in Japan and your in Australia it is as if you bought it from an Australian based retailers.

Just some food for thought...

One can question legalities as much as we like, doubt there will be a legal problem for SE. From my perspective the problem is retaining players and not receiving adverse publicity which may affect the success and popularity of the game in the future. Problems can be tolerated if we receive information ..... their communication concerning this problem is unacceptable. Tell us what's up and what time they need and less for us to be upset about. SE PLEASE READ THIS, TELL US WHAT IS UP AND HOW LONG YOU NEED SO WE CAN GET ON AND DO SOMETHING ELSE WITH OUR TIME WHILE IT GETS FIXED.

Sue for $39? Mwah ha ha ha ha!

I have been in many game launches Aion SWTOR wow long ago Lord of the rings City of Heros many to name they have all had the same issues they either had game bugs but most have the same problem "OMG we did not expect so many to connect" excuses or the network / hardware not meeting demand. They are limiting logins so the servers are not overstressed, the game goes live in a few more days with all the same servers and as it stands client / server platform. If its worse now it may be even worse on release day. And that will be another day of Queues and downtime i am fully expecting based on the 10 other mmos i played from beta to launch.

But its been 10 other beta launches to full game releases and all have had majorly the same issue, By now they should be somewhat prepared for the numbers that join on EA and launch and have equated that into the design for EA setup.
You can just go look at the japanese server Tech support it had 4-5 posts earlier today, one was about NA/eU odly enouth.

the idea of the post is to make SE aware they need to do better and get this sorted soon. EA and release is where you hook players or lose them the origonal version of this game i got from beta to end died as ppl lost interest in it. Now please SE get all your guys in get everything ironed out even if its a 24hr compelte shut down and matinance bring it up as a shining light of how to do it right after falling so far down expectations

Local laws, only apply to local business not international trade of software.

Under agreement they have specific time to fix bugs within a legitimate period. As well as the responsibility of the datacenters they contracted, have to resolve issues, and synch data.

The op posted terms that do not apply internationally, nor to software distribution.

I'm gonna say that the SE folks are acutely aware of the problems going on right now. Bug and Error reports are great feedback.

This is just added noise.

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Originally Posted by ImaDeadmage

One can question legalities as much as we like, doubt there will be a legal problem for SE. From my perspective the problem is retaining players and not receiving adverse publicity which may affect the success and popularity of the game in the future. Problems can be tolerated if we receive information ..... their communication concerning this problem is unacceptable. Tell us what's up and what time they need and less for us to be upset about. SE PLEASE READ THIS, TELL US WHAT IS UP AND HOW LONG YOU NEED SO WE CAN GET ON AND DO SOMETHING ELSE WITH OUR TIME WHILE IT GETS FIXED.

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This does speak to the wider point... expectations for launch. Already the net is awash with the fact that the EA has hit a major, fundamental stumbling block for NA/EU players. The word is out there and spreading fast. These days, especially for a product/service with an already tarnished history, that can ultimately more disastrous. SE needs to show a greater willingness to 'placate' the playerbase with some sort of meaningful 'compensation' or face the real growing risk of losing more from lost launch/post launch sales than what it would cost them to compensate even it's just 'pixel' payments.

Someone there must be smart enough to see that...?

I'am just glad we get 30 days free time before i have to sub I'll play my 30 day's at least i will get some worth out of what i paid for the game.

BTW not been able to log on at all today on EU servers

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Originally Posted by Ceelo_Mage

The only problem, that i see of course, is that the first 30 days of game time is free and you only paid for the game itself, to play the game that is

your "rights" dont start until you have an active game time subscription mate

sry good try though

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EA is the same thing as Time Sub.

THey may extend the free trial to ease people until issues are resolved. They have done it before.

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Originally Posted by kazaran

Local laws, only apply to local business not international trade of software.

Under agreement they have specific time to fix bugs within a legitimate period. As well as the responsibility of the datacenters they contracted, have to resolve issues, and synch data.

The op posted terms that do not apply internationally, nor to software distribution.

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Not so. UK/EU/AUS all have specific consumer/commercial laws that treat online purchases of products/services etc (including software) under local rules and regulations. Countries who wish to do business in said countries agree to these as part of their bilateral etc trading agreements, which can (and do) override existing contract 'no refund' clauses in certain circumstances. Speaking only for AUS online consumer protection covered by Australian Consumer Law (ACL) has (generally) increased over the past decade due to a number of high profile fraud/money laundering cases.

How easy it is to enforce this is an entirely different matter however :) It's one thing to have the rules, another to make them work :D

They can't do a shutdown for Maint. to resolve this. They need to increase what they can handle by seeing what they can handle. And they prolly lack the ability to ghost in as many logins as we want them to have.

Lord knows what damage that would do internally. They need this limit. It's basically the same as having a server queue without the overhead log ins. This is probably the safest approach WITHOUT risking a potential launch delay.

SE know infrastructures probably better than all of us. Let them do their thing.

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Originally Posted by WarJunkie

Actually in Australia that may not actually be the case. It is very well established that "despite what is in a contract, there may be terms and conditions outside that agreement that the law imposes. For example, it's no use having a clause saying 'no refunds' when the law actually gives people a non-excludable right to a refund under certain circumstances".

And changes in Consumer and Fair Trading Laws treat many online purchases as subject to the laws of the purchaser's location rather than that of the seller i.e. if you buy it from an online site in Japan and your in Australia it is as if you bought it from an Australian based retailers.

Just some food for thought...

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While that's nice, no one in the world has a case against SE.

You paid for the software. You have the software. Whether it's usable or not is another story. The software starts, and is functional. You just can't connect to the other half. If you were paying Square for a constant service (which no one is yet, and never will be, because in the TOS they specifically say downtime will happen,) then you'd have something.

There is no case, for anyone on these forums, to sue SE. Especially over $39.99. That's a joke, and their lawyers would make you look and feel bad.

Fix this kind of problem takes time. No one can fix this on 2 or 3 hours,can take 1 week. The better way for this is let the servers down till is fixed,but no,they put down the server some hour and let us play 4-6 hours,and i'm grateful for that. I'm angry and sad for this,but it's going better than what i expect

These same problems have been happening since phase 4 last week so they have had close to a week and a half to fix the same problems that have been around for a while, I do believe that most of these problems have been around since 1.0 over 2 years ago so they have had a long time to fix them. This is a launch and its not going well and yes other games have had bad launches. When a game goes down for maintenance saying "we will fix...." and then they come back up saying "ok we fixed it." and the problem hasn't been fixed at all I think there is a problem bigger then login issues and congestion.

And if they are having congestion issues now I think that it will just be worse at launch when the number of players doubles if not triples. So you guys gotta think if its bad now it will only get worse latter at the rate they are going.

OP: I am not a lawyer, and more importantly I am not your lawyer, but I would suggest caution before making legal-sounding threats, lest you weaken your position or make yourself vulnerable a legal proceeding against you. In particular, no court would ever expect a mass-refund to be processed this quickly, and you've provided no documentation supporting any assertion that you've demanded a refund, nor that any class of users has demanded a refund.

I'm sure that if you contact Square-Enix's customer support and made your grievances known along with your desire for a refund, then they would be happy to revoke your license and process said refund for you.