I often hear the colloquialism "Seven Hells" or "Seventh Hell" from NPCs, and I always wondered about it. It seems to be a prevalent phrase across Eorzea, possibly connected to the Twelve mythos. At the same time, many Eorzeans acknowledge that the dead (unless anchored to the corporeal realm) diffuse into the Aether.
So what in the Seven Hells are the Seven Hells? Do people experience actual realms while drifting the Aether? Are they arranged according to type of sin like in Dante's Inferno, or severity? Both? Are there any other concepts involved?
Finally (and I won't hold my breath on this one) will we ever go there? (inb4 snarky answers like "you might")
Seven Hells?
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07-22-2013, 12:34 PMYrusamaSeven Hells?
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07-22-2013, 01:41 PMAnonymoose
I think it might be similar to as in the real world, where we have assumptions about death that are completely based in faith (God(s) exist(s), there is a "way" and those who follow it are rewarded where those who do not are punished), completely based in science (you die, the electrical circuits in your brain stop working, everything you are and were goes extinct and you fade into oblivion), or some hybrid of the two (any mix whereby science is at least somewhat taken into account but you have a soul, damnit.)
Eorzean physics seems to side with the "back to the aether" thing, but they seem to still hold other beliefs, particularly about their version of The Adversary, the Black Warden, who dwells in the lowest hell. Interestingly, the seven hells correspond to the seven umbral eras - six based in the elements and one final threat rooted in oblivion.
If the rumours about Urianger are to be trusted as containing any truth it all, it seems to also be believed that each hell has its own Lord, and that there may be a cabal of mages dedicated to serving them in attempts to fell all existence to their darkness (Ascians, perhaps?), but who knows. Mythology is meant to be opaque.
Depending on what is true, what is metaphor, and what is myth alone, we could end up there. But who's to define where that is? -
07-22-2013, 01:50 PMYrusama
Glad I asked.
I figured it was just a myth, a remnant of old culture long-since refuted as mankind learned more about Aether. Although I'm still curious, since so many ideas we consider "fantastic" are quite literal in Eorzea, if there is any source for the myth. Maybe it's in some way connected to the Void, which is as well-known source of demons.
(Cue Fern rushing in with "What? The Void is no hell! It is a happy place, full of love and fuzzy marmots! I should take you there sometime!" which I will tentatively decline.) -
07-22-2013, 03:17 PMAnonymoose
That's the real question, isn't it? The Void is of an umbrella term for Eorzeans, used to describe anything beyond conventional wisdom's worldview. For that reason, it's easy for us as observers to attribute everything we don't understand to the same ideal. What if Louisoix's time-limbo is the Void? What if the Seven Hells are of the Void? What if reality is contained inside a bubble of concentrated aetheric energy that forms reality and everything outside of it is the Void? Is it all of those things?
In FFI and FFVIII we see that the Void can be used to traverse time, which makes as much sense as one can hope for. If reality is aether and outside of it is Void, inside of it is where physics matter and thus is where time exists. Likewise, a common theme is that it is separate from physical reality (both the light and dark worlds, if indeed both are used), and can return it to the nothingness it once was if the crystal were to be destroyed.
I should clarify that this isn't building up to a point, I'm just musing again. However, after seeing what very well may have been a dark crystal, perhaps the Seven Hells are actually the Dark World and we have yet to see the true power of Void (outside of perhaps Atomos?), but then again, Atomos spawned the very same demonic entities that the Ascians do, so perhaps we've cast aside the dual world method for FFXIV and we're just seeing an abyss of intangible ideas and essences that are made manifest by concentrated aether in one world of light under the crystal.
If I were to create an alternative theory to that of Catapult, mine would state that every world in the Final Fantasy universe (aside from VII and X) takes place in a different reality, a different canon, and a different world, but many share the same Void.
Think about it this way: What if the big bang isn't the start of the entire universe, but simply our bubble of it? The solar and galactic levels weren't the top of the chain, might there be vast distances of void between universes that share different make-ups and laws? Perhaps the Mothercrystal of Eorzea is but one of many aetheric concentrations in the void. Sure, she makes up all of our reality, but across the Void another concentration forms another Mothercrystal and within that isolated bubble of reality exists Vana'diel.
What I really mean to say is that I have nothing to offer you aside from that bit of lore above. We could see them do anything in the future. -
07-22-2013, 04:17 PMFantasia
I just assumed it meant the "Seventh Umbral Era", since an Umbral era is a time of cataclysm and scarcity, hence being defined as "Hell" by its occupants.
"Seven Hells" possibly referring to the 7 Umbral eras as a collective? After reading the above posts I feel so simple-minded. -
07-22-2013, 04:40 PMObsyThis is an attractive theory.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anonymoose
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07-22-2013, 05:10 PMYrusama
Idle thought: how many of those masked men have we seen? They're the Ascians, right? Could they be the lords of the Seven Hells? I suppose I'll have to count more actively once I've seen the whole story in order to form a more educated guess, although like anything else we can't speak with certainty unless it's made abundantly clear with in-game text.
This reminds me once more of the Dragonriders of Pern. The dragons cross into a place of extreme cold and sensory deprivation called "between" when they teleport. They can even time travel that way. The only differences is that they can only do so with a conscious effort, and it never happens without their triggering it intentionally. They also can't travel to coordinates that don't exist, and will only wind up in places that best match their mental images. They can even teleport to points that are occupied by other objects, such as a solid mountain, resulting in immediate death.
The authors never depict a dragon crossing into other realities, although there was a short story where they suggest a realm "beyond" that I have yet to read. I'm curious if it's simply a final resting place for the dead (which it seems to be) or if there might be other realms that could be reached if only a dragon had a guiding image. I'm also still not sure if between itself is actually a place, or if it's simply what we experience when traveling in a manner beyond what we can perceive of physics.
Back On Topic
I wonder how much we could learn from a clearer understanding of Atomos and the "Voidsent". The word itself could just mean "thing from elsewhere", which would allow for the notion that Atomos can draw monsters from various realities and throw them up on Hydaelyn. If I remember correctly, anything in the "Voidsent" category was coming from those gaping maws. Side Note: How many aggressive maws were there, exactly? 2 in Mor Dhona, 2 in Thanalan, 3 in Coerthas... how many in Shroud? I'm probably overthinking this.
No, it's most likely that Atomos' mouth leads to one place, and because anything "Voidsent" can come from Atomos, then anything "Voidsent" comes from that one place. It's clearly not so chaotic that it can't support cohesive entities like the Deepvoid Slave or Fernehalwes, which can exist in our world under our laws of physics. Alternatively, maybe Atomos is a biogenitor like Titan in FFXIII, creating the Voidsent himself. Does that mean the Ascians can do the same? Wasn't the BLM final boss something like that? I suppose that would break tradition, since he's usually an inter-dimensional portal. -
07-22-2013, 05:42 PMHaxaan
So this may be a stupid question and I'm sorry if it is, but it has a little to do with the "Seven Hells" or the Void itself kind of... I think... So if the Seven Hells and the Void are "connected" does this mean that Atomos has appeared in Eorzea before? Assumably during the Umbral Eras. If so, why hasn't his name been brought up before in canon as such. Unless he was eluded to and I wasn't aware of such a thing. Or was Atomos only around for the end of the Sixth Astral/ beginning of the Seventh Umbral due to aether? If this is the case, would there have been other Voidsent "gateways" around for previous calamities? Again sorry if this is a stupid question or if someone has stated this somewhere else prior to this.
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07-22-2013, 07:39 PMAnonymooseNot a stupid question at all; we know next to nothing about Atomos. We've confirmed that (at least as far as Eorzeans are concerned) he qualifies as a voidsent and, as far as I know, that's about it. Nobody seemed to liken him to past legends or existing knowledge, so if he did come around before, evidence he left is even less than the Allag, about whom we know very little aside from students of their relics and ruins.Quote:
Originally Posted by Haxaan
We do have confirmation, though, that its role in the Calamity was an introduction to a more important role in ARR, so you'll get your answers in time. -
07-22-2013, 07:51 PMCatapultI don't think we have enough information at our fingertips to draw inferrences about previous calamities, nor can we properly assert the true nature of the seven hells yet, but it is certainly something we can explore along the way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Haxaan
This is what I've been thinking for some time and it was actually Dissidia that gave me the idea, with a little help from FFV.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anonymoose
My little theory simply sought to reconcile III and XIV in the same world (which I think we've sufficiently proven is not the case by now, as interesting a rabbit hole as it was). -
07-23-2013, 12:47 AMfiniteHPThat makes sense. Isn't that how Gilgamesh shows up in so many games? He jumps through the "Rift". One man's rift is another man's void.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anonymoose
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07-23-2013, 01:28 PMYrusamaI think they call the Void different things in different versions of FFV, Rift being one of them. I seem to remember X-Zone was one of them, or maybe that's just the spell from FF6 that was later renamed Banish. It might also have been a fan translation that called it X-Zone.Quote:
Originally Posted by finiteHP
I find it very likely that the boss crossovers that are said to take place in the new Skirmish (or so I'd heard) will all fall under the "Voidsent" category in some way, just to keep things as canon as possible. I also wonder if things like the Ahriman live in the Void, or if they originate somewhere beyond the Void.
If Fern can't give us an answer, next time Atomos pops up we should send someone on an exploration mission to the far reaches of the Void. I nominate the ever-observant Anonymoose. -
07-23-2013, 03:49 PMAnonymoose</em fits himself in a taut black and violet outfit with combat boots and steel goggles, then ties one end of a rope around his waist and the other to the base of the aetheryte>Quote:
Originally Posted by Yrusama
Let's do this! -
07-23-2013, 05:32 PMHaxaan
Speaking of the Void... What of Diabolos... I understand that we haven't seen him as of yet... but he seems like the perfect entity to come from the void given his penchant for using gravity distortion fields as his abilities and using time/space as a weapon. Seems only right for him to make an appearance. Guess we'll see... there is A LOT of time for him to come around but I have a sneaking feeling he will be showing up as we find out more about the void... any thoughts?
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07-23-2013, 06:04 PMCatapultI'm not about to get too far ahead of ourselves. Diabolos screams out "future expansion content" to me. I'm happy worrying about the implications of atomos first.Quote:
Originally Posted by Haxaan
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07-23-2013, 06:15 PMAnonymooseMy first thought is that someone at SE, by now, must be saying, "What is it with these people and the Void!? It's been in a bunch of our games and it's always just a side attraction and now everything's the about the Void!" Well, (A) Loremongering is in vogue and (B) that's what you get for making Promyvion my favorite zone in FFXI.Quote:
Originally Posted by Haxaan
My second thought is that SE has plenty of options to choose from. Diabolos is simultaneously established enough to have some thematic elements to him, but rare enough that he hasn't been typecast into a role like the Cid (engineer), Goblins (merchant inventors), etc.- Twice, Diabolos has shown up as a result of defeating dragons (VI; Type-0), and, as we know, dragons play a prominent role in FFXIV, so perhaps he'll be linked into that mythology. Considering that enemy of the dragons is Ishgard, which regards itself as a holy city (complete with Holy See and an Archbishop), the demonic entity would be quite a foil to the ideal. SE has a habit of making the biggest cities and most religious people the antagonists, so imagine Diabolos getting wrapped up in that.
- In FFXI, Diabolos created dream worlds and wove powerful magicks. There's all sorts of weird ways to weave that into the story, especially considering that people who aren't very good at controlling the gift of the Echo often pass out at random. If those chosen by the Crystal could have her gift corrupted ...
- Among the voidsent invading our realm is a race of demons that look quite similar to Diabolos. Tying him to their visage would be an interesting twist. It's only appropriate for this thread to wonder ... if these demons are sentient, they must have a social status. To whom to their lords report? Could Diabolos be the Black Warden's true name?
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07-23-2013, 08:32 PMHaxaan
XD Catapult lol Ok I'll pull in the reigns just a bit and keep pondering Atomos. Moose... You just put into words what I've been thinking for a while. It will be interesting to see if/how Diabolos will be implemented but for now I guess I'll keep letting the old cogs turn about for Atomos.
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07-23-2013, 11:22 PMCatapultHey, don't let me hold YOU back.Quote:
Originally Posted by Haxaan
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07-24-2013, 12:10 AMfiniteHPIf you don't make it back we will always remember your sacrifice. /saluteQuote:
Originally Posted by Anonymoose
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07-24-2013, 04:09 AMPSxpert2011
The seven hells would be Hard-core end-game for your time of death. If your party wipes, you'll be given the choice to enter a new type of dungeon. The Seven Hells would be a new instance or open zone with access only to those who have died. People go there to die again and again hence the suffering!
It's hades from "God of War" 7 times over. All new underworld gear and weapons. It would be awesome to see Diabolos here. The perfect set up!Quote:
Originally Posted by Anonymoose ,
•In FFXI, Diabolos created dream worlds and wove powerful magicks. There's all sorts of weird ways to weave that into the story, especially considering that people who aren't very good at controlling the gift of the Echo often pass out at random. If those chosen by the Crystal could have her gift corrupted ...
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07-24-2013, 04:25 AMrina_inverse
Its a tavern name in Ul'dah slums
..sounds about right -
07-24-2013, 06:39 AMRahfaelFavinco
I've always assumed something along the lines of Anonymoose's theory that the Void exists outside the reality of every FF game. Each game takes place in its own universe, with some exceptions for prequels and sequels and Ivalice Alliance and possibly VII and X/X-2. Each universe is separated from other universes by the realm of nothingness known as the Void. Zantetsuken is sharp enough that it can literally cut through spacetime/the fabric of reality. After Gilgamesh ended up in the Void in FFV, he self-destructed. Somehow he survived, but the force of the explosion pushed him out of the Rift into FFVIII's world. Obtaining Zantetsuken (possibly his only real weapon, seeing as the rest are all forgeries), he was now able to use the sword to cut open portal into the void, and once in the void, open up portals to other worlds and enter them to search for rare swords or whatever. It may be, that if he originated in Type-0 as can be argued, that a journey through the rift was how he ended up in FFV's world in the first place.
Putting aside my favorite FF character ever for a moment, Dissidia and Dissidia Duodecim seem to have the same view of the Void as I do. Furthermore, the Duodecim version of Shantotto is said to have escaped the eternal conflict into the Rift, and thus may have made it to some other world. I had a theory that she made it to Hydaelyn during a previous era and that "Shatotto", the name of the creator of the Stardust Rod relic weapon, is a slight historical inaccuracy regarding the legendary Black Mage's name. Though I heard somewhere that Shatotto was male, so maybe not...?
It's not like Shantotto couldn't cook up a Warp spell that would transfer her to an entirely different universe, either. In FFXI: A Shantotto Ascension, she did just that and ended up switching places with another Shantotto from an alternate universe Vana'diel.
In any case, I believe that with the proper tools, whether a spell of some type or Zantetsuken or what, it would be possible to go from an FF world to any other FF world, or to an alternate version of the FF world you started out in. -
07-24-2013, 01:38 PMYrusama
Maybe the Void is sort of like the darkness between worlds in Kingdom Hearts. It's like "space" in our universe, but rather than vacuum there is corrupting darkness, forcing characters to wear protective gear or pilot ships through it. Of course, in KH the worlds act more like planets, but in FF's case they could be more like pockets of reality.
I'm surprised nobody mentioned the following line:
"Hells seep black dooms."
It could just be a saying, or the Seven Hells could quite literally be the Void, with Atomos acting as a doorway. Of course, that last part might just be my bias from jumping in his mouth too many times in previous games, particularly XI. There was also a worm in FFVI that would bring you to Gogo's realm, though it wasn't named Atomos. Maybe we'll meet Gogo anyway?
Make it happen, Devs! -
07-24-2013, 04:53 PMNoloeTazierNot all monsters from the Void are hellbent on evilness. Snurbles and Dormouse are from the Void, one eats cheese and the other collects under your couch.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yrusama
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07-24-2013, 06:22 PMCatapultI find it more likely that the name deepvoid doormouse was one given by locals taken aghast by the rodent's unusually large size and ferocity, rather than an actual origination from the void.Quote:
Originally Posted by NoloeTazier
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07-28-2013, 12:16 AMRaldo
I'm quite shocked that this thread's been around for a week and no one's dredged up what info we've already been given on these topics. I don't commonly visit the official forums anymore, but I'll do you all the pleasure of re-dropping that info here.
FUN FACTS!
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ell#post384014
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...l=1#post270590Quote:
Originally Posted by Fernehalwes
Bonus! Since Atomos was mentioned at one point in the thread, and since the previous quote didn't directly confirm the existence of the void...Quote:
Originally Posted by Fernehalwes
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...oid#post898627
For those curious, no I don't keep crazy track of Ferne's posts or anything. I just remembered that he'd posted about it before, so I used the search function for posts containing the word 'hell' and/or 'void' that had been posted by the user 'Fernehalwes'.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fernehalwes
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07-28-2013, 02:57 AMFantasia
WAAAIT a second!
Doesn't that mean what I said at the start was true?Quote:
Originally Posted by Raldo
I'm quite shocked that this thread's been around for a week and no one's dredged up what info we've already been given on these topics. I don't commonly visit the official forums anymore, but I'll do you all the pleasure of re-dropping that info here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fernehalwes
Naivety <3Quote:
Originally Posted by Fantasia
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07-28-2013, 06:00 AMMolic
Something kinda interesting kinda related to the topic, but if you go to http://xivdb.com/
then go to game > dungeons, one is called the seventh gate of hell. Think this could be read as the seventh gate in hell or the gate to the seventh hell. -
08-06-2013, 11:37 AMMtoto_Wamoto
Sorry to bump this, but I didn't see any mention of this in this thread.
According to Kipih Jakkya, the journalist who wrote for The Raven, Atomos is ancient Eorzean meaning "The Indivisible". The name comes from an ancient Hyur myth of an entity with the power to breach the borders between worlds.
Seeing that the realm is several thousand years old, Atomos may have likely appeared before in the past, likely during events which led to other umbral eras or even during those umbral eras.
From what Ferne has told us, Atomos is able to travel to our world when the rift between Hydaelyn and the Void is large enough for it to do so. If the presence of Dalamud (Bahamut) is able to alter the aetherial flow of the planet, perhaps when Bahamut was last free to roam the skies, there was a similar effect on the planet's aether, allowing Atomos to come to our realm from the Void, thus creating the ancient myth that Kipih Jakkya spoke of.
As for the Black Warden...I have two theories.
One theory is that the Black Warden is as Moose has said - Diablos. Yet something tells me that they wouldn't put Diablos at the helm of something as large as the Void, or the Seven Hells. He could however be one of the lords of the other hells.
My second theory is that the Black Warden is XIV's version of Chaos. We're seeing a sudden surge of older Final Fantasy enemies and elements that are going to make an appearance in ARR. Xandes, Cloud of Darkness, Ultima Weapon, Demon Wall, Tiamat (Hydra version), Typhon, etc. All of them are somehow tied to the lore in some way and as we know, XIV is essentially the love letter to every final fantasy before it. To have Chaos involved in some way wouldn't surprise me, nor would having Exdeath (we're getting Gilgamesh), the Four Fiends, or the Demons of the Rift included somehow. Anyways, that's all just personal opinion until we get more details. :p