ARR Attack Magic Damage Test (beta3) Int, dtr & acc

I don't usually start a new thread, when I do, I test something...


Determination (DTR) scan test:

The yellow highlight ones are I made some mistake due to careless + I don't care. I put little mind inside and forgot to remove. oh well, I used test 2 similar range's mind value to back calculated the damage value without it. there can be more error on these 2 points just keep that in mind. The R value did increase after I tune the damage value down tho.
http://i.imgur.com/pDVVFGC.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/kX2vIx8.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/7nS0QkH.jpg

raw data

Int/mnd scan test:

I don't think I'll spend time to do the test after data will be saved, so I might as well just do it now. I instantly regret it at the first set tho... each set takes ~40 mins to gather @@:

Job: WHM

http://i.imgur.com/c3kQMnJ.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/7zgTgQk.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/roT1Aqr.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/KtvI77Z.jpg

Note:

• If you know before, the regen amount has steps, such as 333-335mnd regen = 34 336-338mnd regen = 35, then you won't feel my this regen test is that odd.
• Regen can have critical cure within the normal values. Each regen will give 7 x single value back. If you ask me, I won't use it due to the cure/mp ratio.
• The results are pretty linear to me.
• here is the weapon damage test. http://i.imgur.com/2izLdH5.jpg each +magic damage = +3.39 in stone II.

all results are 50ish value averages.
I don't think I need to explain the tests this time. It's pretty clear.
Test targets are lv49 Air Spirits.

add in the +% per mind row, so you know by change that int/mnd, per int/mnd contributed that much +- hp.



new test raw data

Old tests:
Careful with what I do for the standard deviation... it might not be that good to do that. but...whatever...

Please note, below tests are just an initial test, to get a general sense how things work. It's not aiming to tell you how to do in general situation. Discussion and more test results, welcome.

Method:

• Use Conjurer with Stone II: so there is no bonus with spells use, while base damage is big enough to amplify the influence of the stats. (Assume they are multiplication relationship)
• Use Cleric Stance (Note: Cleric Stance will switch int and mnd value, so int<-->mnd. above listed were my mnd value and will become my int value after I use this ability. To simplify the naming, I just use int so that ppl won't get confused. for more info view the game manual.)
• lv49 Wind Spirits as test objects: 10 to 12 for each set. however, numbers of mobs are not important.
• Results are average from 100+ stone2 damage excluded critical damage. (Note: I only sampled 100ish damage values, if including critical values, my whole experiment will add in extra variable. Thus, excluded.)

Test1:
Goal: basic test with determination(dtr) and Intelligence(int) contribution to attack magic damage

summary: Average (avg) Standard Deviation (Stdev)
Int 320 dtr 225, Stone2 avg: 274.05 stdev:7.92 (Note: this one has acc+10, see test3)
Int 320 dtr 231, Stone2 avg: 277.33 stdev:9.08
Int 326 (from item), dtr 225 , Stone2 avg: 281.13 stdev: 8.15
Int 326 (from bonus stats points),dtr 225, Stone2 avg: 281.94 stdev: 8.35



discussion:

1. add Int is more effective than add dtr. (at this lv, this test. not in general, yet! just these data already took me 4 hours :( and 1hour to post it =.=)
2. When I was choosing gears, I've never though "acc" now is for everything, pysical and magical (warning! just my observation)... so keep that in mind within the test data there will be tiny flaw. The additional error coming from acc will be around 0.2%, however. see below acc test. common.
3. add stats from item roughly = to add stats from bonus points. The reason I did this test was because I remember SE did said something adjust item's stats contribution vs stats from the bonus point to make bonus point more stand out... but looks like it's not. However, if they are exactly equal, you can see my test error between set's 100 Stone2 avg will be 0.2%. please keep this in mind tho... some test doesn't really change that much...

Test 2:
Goal: how does dtr works, compare with low int value and see it's an addition or multipication relationship.

Summary:
Int 257, dtr 202, Stone2 avg: 229.77 stdev: 7.14(Note: this one has acc+10)
Int 257, dtr 208 (same +6 as above) avg: 230.04 stdev: 7.32 (Note: this stdev value (vs +10acc value above) does not match the other test either... can it be same problem as dtr that when you are lacking base value, these won't show up that much?)

Discussion:

1. dtr works as more complex formula. I can't get any relationship out of this test...
2. dtr almost have no contributuion...at low stats lv and this test

Test 3: ACC Test
Goal: to test why my mage ring has +acc stats...
Summary:
Int 257, dtr 208, stone2 avg: 230.04 (same as above) Stdev: 7.37
Int 257, dtr 208, Acc + 18 (Note: str, dex also +12) Stone2 avg: 231.05 Stdev: 6.71

Discussion:

1. There are tiny resist of magic involved. from the 100+ avg and stdev values, you can see the damage group probably more toward the higher non-resisted side.
2. keep that in mind my test error of these 100+ avg is 0.2%. so this tiny increase in avg damage is almost nothing.
3. You can go back to see above test to see the match of Stdev to confirm the credibility of this test, just little more.

finally, if you are curious, here is my test data.
(Note: I just share my test results with public, so the method and data will be clear, no fake tests. This is MY way to organize. If you don't like it, keep the "your data is so messy" to yourself. I don't need to organize toward [kupo!] automatic data-logger style. I <3 my hand input method.)
thread layout, however, I tried to make it as clear as possible ^^; still need lots works to make it looks clear.

derail but useful: (DD skill charts)

pug/mnk
http://i.imgur.com/Dwv7L8a.jpg

ARC/Brd
http://i.imgur.com/jq2B078.jpg

Gla/pld
http://i.imgur.com/PhjmGPN.jpg

Lnc/DRG
http://i.imgur.com/RvEnWc6.jpg

MRD/War
http://i.imgur.com/NvAuQQP.jpg

Well done, good read!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Deli

Test 2:
Goal: how does dtr works, compare with low int value and see it's an addition or multipication relationship.

Summary:
Int 257, dtr 202, Stone2 avg: 229.77 stdev: 7.14(Note: this one has acc+10)
Int 257, dtr 208 (same +6 as above) avg: 230.04 stdev: 7.32 (Note: this stdev value (vs +10acc value above) does not match the other test either... can it be same problem as dtr that when you are lacking base value, these won't show up that much?)

Discussion:

1. dtr works as more complex formula. I can't get any relationship out of this test...
2. dtr almost have no contributuion...

.

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Is it possible that determination has something to do with spell interruption rates?

Its effect on DPS seems almost nil in the tests

so, still stacking INT?
got it

Nice testing. It will be interesting to see if Determination has a greater impact on the disciples of war or not.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DubstepNinja

Is it possible that determination has something to do with spell interruption rates?

Its effect on DPS seems almost nil in the tests

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I don't think so; the manual specifically says that Determination affects attack power, attack magic potency, and healing magic potency.

I need some more test points to plot a complete curve. I want to know it's a linear formula or it's a curved line, both int and dtr.
it makes no sense at base stats lv it almost boosted nothing. That's why I need further investigation.

for the replies above:

• for now, my priority is stacking best gear for int (mnd for whm) > Determination ~ acc ~ spell speed (if you really pay attention to spell speed and how fast it increase... ~300 spell speed, cure takes 1.98s; ~400 spell speed, cure takes 1.92s. 3% faster but that's like +100 spell speed...)
  
• There is someone else posting a Str vs dtr test on "other side," you guys can go search for it. the result for dtr was upsetting as I remember.
• this version, the spell interrupted rate is very low. I almost thought it doesn't exist. During the whole test, even though I have stoneskin protect me but still hp will drop to 60%, I only got interrupted once during "naked test" which I was only wearing gathering outfit. So, another test can be the vit vs interrupted rate. however. the chance is too low that I'll ignore this part in the near future...
• extra common for above one is that the game seem to shifted from lv-matter game to gear-matter game. Initially, my naked test was in really naked form. however, I almost got killed by the lv49 air spirits several times. That's why I had to abandon the data and boost up my magic defense. As many of you know, it doesn't really matter in 1.0 cus def gear didn't change that much. You could kill lots things naked. However, during this test, my damage were 150-180 while naked, and 110-130 while in gathering outfit. (note: even gathering outfit gives very good magic def. I think it's closed to top-notch lv50 crafted battle gears.) however, it can be just they rebalanced the mob strength.

Very nice info i never got around to doing much on the mage side of things, but i can tell you the same thing about Determination can be experienced on Physical damage side of things.

I did roughly the same going from naked to fully geared in different stats on PLD fighting the 45 basilisks near the ceruleum plant.

Its was hard to separate DET out by itself, but i could not find any good correlation to damage. Generally DET comes with other stats on gear and using what i determined on other stats DET seems like a /100 boost. (e.g. 23 DET roughly a .23 boost)

I tend to stay away from the other side apart from leaving feedback so I'm not sure what is being said there.

Minor tidbits i did find is 3STR = 1 Base Damage and 1VIT = 17 HP In case anyone wanted to know.

I started with no gear stacking up STR on each piece of gear till i was fully geared.

I fought sets of 4 Basilisks @ level 45 taking the average of the high and low 100 pot attack.

Then taking that number by the STR increase gave me a ~.33 increase in damage (give or take a small %)

I forgot to write down my starting STR, but i increased from base PLD with no allocation to +124 STR

Taking DET on top of STR I had a hard time seeing any real impact. (At most what i was speculating being a small % increase.)

(I'm no number wiz, but it seemed pretty on the level. Hopefully it might be useful to someone)

Awesome work. Good read.

Magic DMG(who knew)

INT+MND= Mage class

<ta-da!!>

(see ino magicz) =P

edit:

MND= magic attack +
INT= enfeeble/ elemental defense +
(off the top of my head)

Did test with determination as well this last weekend.

Not large enough to be exact figures, but in the test with drastic changes in determination we expected to see some change... it was literally an average dmg change of 0.14% per nuke average from +0 determination to +36 which is easily in the margin of error. (a few points of dmg more or less)

Used gear without int and to test DET increases to gage if there was a dmg increase or not. (did a sample of 30 nukes per each setup... yea not large enough yet but just started towards the end of last beta)

+0 +5 +10 +15 +22 +36

For each of these we shown almost no correlation to dmg output from thm using only blizzard 3 on level 31 mobs. With int, we saw drastic increase per added stat per test.

So I am not sure if determination effects dmg in another way but for now it seems determination has no impact on dmg output for mage nukes. Was going to test and see if it effects DoTs or maby some other factor in the dmg output. But int is vastly superior to det based on initial testing.

This will be important to know when materia comes into play with the low stat caps for materia gear. Most mage gear can only hold 1 int materia. So need to see if mp, spell speed , det, or Crit will be better.

I think that is the kicker is we can not stack enough Determination to get outside a +-5% margin.

So Its looking like its not doing much.

From melding a few +0s on over the weekend I am not getting my hope up for materia.

Did you forget that cleric stance also increases "potency of attack magic spells by 10%"?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Crevox

Did you forget that cleric stance also increases "potency of attack magic spells by 10%"?

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who? me?
every single stone II was boosted by 10% ~= no boost.

unless the 10% was added only in special part of the formula, so it will be, for example,
damage formula for stone II = weapon dps * {0.014 [(idonno) log(int) + a]} * (1+10%) * success % * (how many cookies you eat) + {0.007 [log(dtr) +b]}


/muttering on, minds off topic...
btw, it's not completely guess tho...
I mean there are strong scientific reports, from K country, that shows eat cookies helps your dps in game...

ok that part is fake (or is it...?), but I don't think it's a linear formula. They want you to see the lv up benefit in the beginning of the game, so a shifted log plot is pretty good I think.


Come to think about it, dodge that cracks in that 2 seconds is way more important than spent 14 days to get some super shinny gears that add 5 more int...

Also...ifrit has strong att, garuda need lots acc, so titan... ya need more cookies...
/muttering off

after ~ 8 hours tests, updating the results...

This is some thorough research! We asked the dev. team if they could give us a comment on the use of the determination stat in relation to what you were researching.

They remarked that at high levels, you should definitely be able to feel the difference when you enhance DTR through gear.
At low levels though, you're right that there isn't much of an effect when increasing DTR.

Oh Wow!

Hvinire just put down some seriously useful information!!! :O

Let's go to the leader board....

*ding*

The audience rates this dev post as "F A B U L O U S"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hvinire

This is some thorough research! We asked the dev. team if they could give us a comment on the use of the determination stat in relation to what you were researching.

They remarked that at high levels, you should definitely be able to feel the difference when you enhance DTR through gear.
At low levels though, you're right that there isn't much of an effect when increasing DTR.

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Ahhh Cactoooos, you're awesome! <3

Good stuff! It confirms what's in my guide :)

http://www.abaddon.us/phpBB3/page.php?p=stat-guide

Oh my...
I didn't notice that i said 'dtr almost have no contribution...' i missed at naked situation...words.
Though i don't quite think it's lv relative tho...should say high stats maybe...but big hvinire must know some super secrets about it.

But...big hvinire saw through my test pattern... a detailed dtr vs damage test is planning and still no one knows.
/confident

Thanks for the information. I'd also like to add that, on the melee side, determination has a higher proportionate effect on autoattacks vs weaponskills; I would imagine that the comparison holds true for autoattacks vs spells, but it bears investigating.

I personally tested an 83 determination gap on DRG to deduce that, very roughly, with a 44 base wDMG (weapon damage) and 45.76 base aaDMG (auto-attack damage) rating, 1 actual damage point : ~3.89 STR : ~9.22 DET. With WSs, 1 dmg : ~4.12 STR : ~16.6 DET.

My guess is that you'll see a similar ratio with spells, 1 dmg : 4 INT : 16 DET.

edit: Actually, I could be really off on the actual numbers, because I'm not sure exactly what the relationship is between weapon magic damage and whether you can correlate it to weapon physical damage, but I believe the general idea will hold -- that it'll take a very large amount of DET to get one point of damage in return.

Strength
Increases melee attack power and the percentage of damage mitigated by block and parry.

Dexterity
Increases ranged attack power and the chance of blocking or parrying an attack.

Vitality
Increases maximum HP.

Intelligence
Increases attack magic potency

Mind
Increases healing magic potency.

Piety
Increases maximum MP.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by indira

Intelligence
Increases attack magic potency

Mind
Increases healing magic potency.

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One more thing to add to this is that during all the test I done above the Healing magic potency = mind value; Attack magic potency = int value; Clerk Cleric Stance didn't boost 10% to attack magic potency. so I guess they make the display more clear in 2.0. no more weird magic potency then you convert to actual cure/ damage.

Clerk Stance swaps int and mnd. 10% attack is only gonna hit double digits extra.

updated the dtr scan test...

Really thanks for Hvinire's dev tag tho. I was seriously thinking that I should post more tests here or no.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Molly_Millions

Good stuff! It confirms what's in my guide :)

http://www.abaddon.us/phpBB3/page.php?p=stat-guide

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Hey Molly, in that guide, you suggest Dex as a tanking stat for the damage mitigation. I did a quick and dirty Dex and Parry test this last weekend (that, I admit, is hardly a rigorous examination of the stats, but my time and resources were limited, I plan on doing a much more in-depth study in Phase 4). My preliminary results show extremely disappointing returns on Dex and Parry on block rate, with a nice bump in Parry rate from the Parry stat only.

Originally I posted the results hyperbolously claiming "Dex is worthless", and I regret that claim now, as it clearly has worth, but until I have time to test further, I found Dex to be a marginal boost to damage mitigation at best (at least at entry levels of Dex). I'll repost my findings here, though when compared to Deli's I'm afraid the professionalism is somewhat lacking. When I do a more in depth test with more data points, I'll calculate a line of best fit and R² values.

http://i885.photobucket.com/albums/a...BlockRates.png

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hulan

Hey Molly, in that guide, you suggest Dex as a tanking stat for the damage mitigation. I did a quick and dirty Dex and Parry test this last weekend (that, I admit, is hardly a rigorous examination of the stats, but my time and resources were limited, I plan on doing a much more in-depth study in Phase 4). My preliminary results show extremely disappointing returns on Dex and Parry on block rate, with a nice bump in Parry rate from the Parry stat only.

Originally I posted the results hyperbolously claiming "Dex is worthless", and I regret that claim now, as it clearly has worth, but until I have time to test further, I found Dex to be a marginal boost to damage mitigation at best (at least at entry levels of Dex). I'll repost my findings here, though when compared to Deli's I'm afraid the professionalism is somewhat lacking. When I do a more in depth test with more data points, I'll calculate a line of best fit and R² values.

http://i885.photobucket.com/albums/a...BlockRates.png

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That being said, would you go for DEX or VIT as PLD for your 2nd stat? (STR is clearly no. 1 for tanking.) It seems to me like it's a toss up, since VIT now only increases max HP.

I'm thinking it may still be worth it to stack DEX assuming you stack Parry as well, since you've doubling up on the damage mitigation. Otherwise, a VIT and determination build might be worth considering. Maybe I'll spell out the different paths...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Molly_Millions

That being said, would you go for DEX or VIT as PLD for your 2nd stat? (STR is clearly no. 1 for tanking.) It seems to me like it's a toss up, since VIT now only increases max HP.

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I'd have a hard time coming down on that decision until some more rigorous Dex testing is done (by myself or someone else). From a purely "how much health am I getting/mitigating" word of mouth says (I forgot to look myself, so I'll just have to take others' word for this) VIT returns ~8 HP per point, though other numbers have been quoted. Based on my findings, DEX returns ~0.13% increase in mitigation rate (mitigation in this case refers to in incident of either Block or Parry) per point. Each mitigation incident will block 14%-11% damage on a STR based PLD, resulting in an overall increase of 0.018% damage mitigation over time. On an enemy that hits for 1000 damage, that's going to result in a reduction of ~0.18 damage per attack (averaged out, in reality it's going to be a much more extreme distribution).

VIT is a sure thing, it will give you a flat buff to your survivability, at the cost of your healer's sanity (and MP). Dex is a gamble, where the more Dex you add, the higher your chances of winning but with higher returns than HP on a win. Stylistically, I want Dex to be a viable alternative. At this point though, I would need to find something very interesting at higher Dex/Parry values to make it worthwhile. It also depends on how high you can get your Block value with STR. If Block value can get up in the ~25% range, pumping Dex and trying to get that "win" to come up more often makes more sense.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hulan

I'd have a hard time coming down on that decision until some more rigorous Dex testing is done (by myself or someone else). From a purely "how much health am I getting/mitigating" word of mouth says (I forgot to look myself, so I'll just have to take others' word for this) VIT returns ~8 HP per point, though other numbers have been quoted. Based on my findings, DEX returns ~0.13% increase in mitigation rate (mitigation in this case refers to in incident of either Block or Parry) per point. Each mitigation incident will block 14%-11% damage on a STR based PLD, resulting in an overall increase of 0.018% damage mitigation over time. On an enemy that hits for 1000 damage, that's going to result in a reduction of ~0.18 damage per attack (averaged out, in reality it's going to be a much more extreme distribution).

VIT is a sure thing, it will give you a flat buff to your survivability, at the cost of your healer's sanity (and MP). Dex is a gamble, where the more Dex you add, the higher your chances of winning but with higher returns than HP on a win. Stylistically, I want Dex to be a viable alternative. At this point though, I would need to find something very interesting at higher Dex/Parry values to make it worthwhile. It also depends on how high you can get your Block value with STR. If Block value can get up in the ~25% range, pumping Dex and trying to get that "win" to come up more often makes more sense.

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Here's something to consider. You can almost always add DEX to your tank gear, but you can almost never add much VIT. If you cap DEX, you can sometimes still add a little VIT. You have to consider how stat caps work in ARR, we can't simply add 5 VIT materia onto a chest piece any more.

As for STR, the value comes not only from damage mitigation, but from greater DPS and greater enmity by extension. That being the case STR is the best choice for primary stat. However, it also follows the same rule as VIT, the best tanking gear is almost always capped on STR. Really the debate is not over if STR and DEX are better than VIT, it's whether VIT is better than DEX, as STR is the best stat for a tank.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Molly_Millions

Here's something to consider. You can almost always add DEX to your tank gear, but you can almost never add much VIT. If you cap DEX, you can sometimes still add a little VIT. You have to consider how stat caps work in ARR, we can't simply add 5 VIT materia onto a chest piece any more.

As for STR, the value comes not only from damage mitigation, but from greater enmity. That being the case STR is the best choice for primary stat. However, it also follows the same rule as VIT, the best tanking gear is almost always capped on STR.

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That's certainly true. In some ways this is a academic debate, since at cap materia levels, you can pretty much guarentee 3-4 capped stats (though now that information about sub-caps on materia for stats outside of gear affinity has come out, you may be able to cap more). Based on what I know right now - which could change at any moment - I would cap Strength, then Parry, then Dexterity, then Mind, then Piety on PLD; Strength, then Vitality, then Parry, then Critical Accuracy, then Dexterity on MRD.

As you said, Strength really does reign supreme right now as a tanking stat; it grants damage reduction, more enmity, and allows you to be a meaningful damage dealer (though still lacking when compared to dedicated damage dealers).

Parry seems to have excellent returns on investment, increasing parry rates by 6-7% with +80 Parry in my test, which is incredibly easy to come by, it's also relatively easy to cap for PLDs.

Dexterity is still a black horse here as far as I am concerned, but the small imporvements I saw could have easily been due to the low levels of Dex, and honestly, it's probably still worth the effort when compared to Vitality, since Vitality comes so easily.

Perhaps this is my old FFXI days talking, but I also think PLDs would see some valuable returns on investment at late levels by bringing their Mind and Piety up closer to at level values; I'd want to see how healing enmity compares to spamming WSs to be sure on that one though.

MRD on the other hand, is going to benifit more heavily from raw increases in survivability, as well as attack power improvements to better the chances of a burst of HP absorb, so I would rate Vitality much higher and add Critical Accuracy in to have better HP absorption rates.

If you don't have much time, I'll suggest do a base, like your dex 196, then do an max, such as dex 296.
I was doing that for my dtr test since the first 2 didn't show much difference, and I lose faith. You can fill the points little by little. At least, you'll feel safer that knowing your time investment is worth a little or no.

You are extremely brave to do the test involve with chance @@:::
It might need large amount of data like yours 1000 attacks to get a valid point. That's why I skip the critical damage analysis ^^: But come to think about it... adding 20 dtr only add roughly 0.4% to the magic damage initially; while adding 20 int +4.5% to damage, I think just in 2.0 we shouldn't expect too much on the stats...

dodging is the way to be the best tank :D

I was in a dungeon with some japanese this past weekend... I was on whm again and like..."oh! so this is how easy this dungeon is if the tank dodged the poison breath..." >"<

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hulan

That's certainly true. In some ways this is a academic debate, since at cap materia levels, you can pretty much guarentee 3-4 capped stats (though now that information about sub-caps on materia for stats outside of gear affinity has come out, you may be able to cap more). Based on what I know right now - which could change at any moment - I would cap Strength, then Parry, then Dexterity, then Mind, then Piety on PLD; Strength, then Vitality, then Parry, then Critical Accuracy, then Dexterity on MRD.

As you said, Strength really does reign supreme right now as a tanking stat; it grants damage reduction, more enmity, and allows you to be a meaningful damage dealer (though still lacking when compared to dedicated damage dealers).

Parry seems to have excellent returns on investment, increasing parry rates by 6-7% with +80 Parry in my test, which is incredibly easy to come by, it's also relatively easy to cap for PLDs.

Dexterity is still a black horse here as far as I am concerned, but the small imporvements I saw could have easily been due to the low levels of Dex, and honestly, it's probably still worth the effort when compared to Vitality, since Vitality comes so easily.

Perhaps this is my old FFXI days talking, but I also think PLDs would see some valuable returns on investment at late levels by bringing their Mind and Piety up closer to at level values; I'd want to see how healing enmity compares to spamming WSs to be sure on that one though.

MRD on the other hand, is going to benifit more heavily from raw increases in survivability, as well as attack power improvements to better the chances of a burst of HP absorb, so I would rate Vitality much higher and add Critical Accuracy in to have better HP absorption rates.

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Funny you mentioned the bolded part. I parsed several ifrit fights during the last test and was no.1 DD as WAR in every one of them.

In all honesty, I think there are several different ways you can make a build and be effective. The most important thing to remember when doing so is to pick a hierarchy for your stats and stick with it for every piece of gear. It has to do with the low stat caps, and the small returns from each stat. I think this was an intentional design choice, because in 1.0 there was basically 1 way to gear each job and that was it. Now at least we have some flexibility, even if the returns are negligible.

*Edit: As Deli says above the best thing to do is to avoid getting hit in the first place. As tanks, we're given some moves so that we can stun, and stop big damage attacks. Also, running away is a completely valid strategy. :P We don't have to just stand there and eat attacks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Deli

If you don't have much time, I'll suggest do a base, like your dex 196, then do an max, such as dex 296.
I was doing that for my dtr test since the first 2 didn't show much difference, and I lose faith. You can fill the points little by little. At least, you'll feel safer that knowing your time investment is worth a little or no.

You are extremely brave to do the test involve with chance @@:::

I was in a dungeon with some japanese this past weekend... I was on whm again and like..."oh! so this is how easy this dungeon is if the tank dodged the poison breath..." >"<

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Thank you, though I don't know if my courage was born out; even I don't really trust those numbers, even with 1000 samples per stat - probably going to need to bump that up to like 10,000 for an actual accurate value. I would have done what you said, but due to the fact that I couldn't find much Dex gear on the market, all of that Dex was from bonus Attribute points. I don't know of a way to remove them, so I had to do it in order from smallest to largest value.

What dungeon were you doing? I'm always looking for ways to improve my technique and help healers.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Molly_Millions

Funny you mentioned the bolded part. I parsed several ifrit fights during the last test and was no.1 DD as WAR in every one of them.

*Edit: As Deli says above the best thing to do is to avoid getting hit in the first place. As tanks, we're given some moves so that we can stun, and stop big damage attacks. Also, running away is a completely valid strategy. :P We don't have to just stand there and eat attacks.

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I was more refering to PLDs, since at least to my knowledge, they take a sizable hit in damage dealing potential compared to MRDs. And I agree, I'm actually quite proud of my evasive abilities. Unless I'm fighting in a huge mob of enemies, I very rarely get hit by anything with a slower than a 1 second charge time. Except last night.... That last run may have been a wee bit too late for me, never have been much of a late night gamer *cough*

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Originally Posted by Molly_Millions

Funny you mentioned the bolded part. I parsed several ifrit fights during the last test and was no.1 DD as WAR in every one of them.

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but big molly, other DD need to run for cracks... I think the cracks only spawn on non-tanking members unless they are all dead.
and /nod ppl complain FF14 isn't active enough... they should try tanking. I was constantly on my toes and smashing buttons whenever I can. :D

/nod to Hulan, 3-10k samples was what I think will generate reasonable data set.

It's the hmm lv32 that jungle one. The most difficult one for healer is the first mini boss set, a bunch birds. I played it 4 times so far, 3 pld 1 war. on 3 fights, my cure2 was non-stopping firing cus don't know why tank keep getting hit by something 600 damage. Then, before I knew it, all the little birds were on me... But this recent one was different, this pld tank, in militia gear set, did some magic trick that he survived without much cares. I can even switch to Cleric Stance and nuke a little or esuna every single poison I saw. :D I think the boss is using some single-target ws...
The final dragon boss the kitty pld also dodged most poison breath and only got hit once. The charging time for poison breath is super long, I don't know why previous tanks can't do it...

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Originally Posted by Deli

but big molly, other DD need to run for cracks... I think the cracks only spawn on non-tanking members unless they are all dead.
and /nod ppl complain FF14 isn't active enough... they should try tanking. I was constantly on my toes and smashing buttons whenever I can. :D

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I think it's determined by how much hate each person has, but I haven't watched closely enough to say for sure. It's definitely different from 1.0 though where THM or BLM were top DD as long as they weren't dead.

But yeah, the fact that as tank, I get to wail on Iffy more, definitely had something to with the amount of damage I'm dealing out. It just seems night and day different compared to 1.0.

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Originally Posted by Deli

/nod ppl complain FF14 isn't active enough... they should try tanking. I was constantly on my toes and smashing buttons whenever I can. :D

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We're getting a little off topic here, but speaking of smashing buttons while tanking. I've noticed a lot of MRD tanks on the Beta forums singing the praises of spamming Overpower.

Am I the only person who things this is an awefully inefficient way to achieve the desired effect. I mean sure, you need to hit it from time to time on big groups to keep hate off of the healers and AoE DDs, but in every group I've tanked Dungeons for, one Overpower and one Flash to open, rotate in Maim, then one more Overpower was more than enough to keep hate on the whole group unless there was an overzealous THM, in which case I just had to swap in one more Overpower after killing the first mob....

Maybe I'm just totally deluded.

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Originally Posted by Hulan

We're getting a little off topic here, but speaking of smashing buttons while tanking. I've noticed a lot of MRD tanks on the Beta forums singing the praises of spamming Overwhelm.

Am I the only person who things this is an awefully inefficient way to achieve the desired effect. I mean sure, you need to hit it from time to time on big groups to keep hate off of the healers and AoE DDs, but in every group I've tanked Dungeons for, one Overwhelm and one Flash to open, rotate in Maim, then one more Overwhelm was more than enough to keep hate on the whole group unless there was an overzealous THM, in which case I just had to swap in one more Overwhelm after killing the first mob....

Maybe I'm just totally deluded.

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I don't spam it. My rotation at least for Iffy is generally like this after initially grabbing hate:

Heavy Swing
Skull Sunder
Heavy Swing
Maim
Overpower

I'll toss a Flash in there every once in a while because the GCD seems to get screwed up, and flash seems to fix it. I'll toss Foresight in there when it's up, and Use Brutal Swing to try to stun Iffy and stop his plumes. After the nail I usually pop a mega potion of strength for fun.


As long as somebody else doesn't grab hate before me then run around like an asshat, I never have any issues.

Well, Ifrit is sort of a different beast, since it's single target. I'm extremely shocked if I have less than 200% enmity from the next highest person on Ifrit, simply because you can focus your efforts and keep up a good Skull Sunder rotation. I've always liked tanking single, large targets; and it's something I consider myself fairly proficient at. Large groups, on the other hand, is something I have very little experience with. So when a fair number of people appear, claiming that spamming Overpower is the way to go, and that is not even close to my own technique, I get a little worried.

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Originally Posted by Hulan

Well, Ifrit is sort of a different beast, since it's single target. I'm extremely shocked if I have less than 200% enmity from the next highest person on Ifrit, simply because you can focus your efforts and keep up a good Skull Sunder rotation. I've always liked tanking single, large targets; and it's something I consider myself fairly proficient at. Large groups, on the other hand, is something I have very little experience with. So when a fair number of people appear, claiming that spamming Overwhelm is the way to go, and that is not even close to my own technique, I get a little worried.

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For dungeons, I actually prefer to run with my LS/FC so we can use mumble. In which case large mob groups aren't much different than single targets, because we can easily coordinate on which mob to attack, not attack, sleep, etc.

lalala since it's my thread, so I can feel free to de-rail it:

was going to educate friend about ff14, but it end up I learned a lot too XD and share with you guys:

http://i.imgur.com/Dwv7L8a.jpg

personal thought of the sequence: I <3 discuss

the following numbers means lv:
solo (lazy of running): 1 > 18/2 > 6 > 50 > 2 > 6 >50
solo (super runner): 50 > 18 > 6 >1 >18 > 6 > 1
solo (single mob long time {ie fate boss} but lazy): 1 > 2/18 > 30 demolish > 50 > 18/2 > 6 > 1

just some thought :D