[dev1023] Getting rid of emnity generation skills

A brief lesson on this skills. In the early days of gaming/online gaming, dungeons and areas you could wander around were separated into small rooms. However there wasn't much you could do in these rooms; there weren't grids or maps. This made combat a problem if you wanted to protect someone... you couldn't get in the way, form a wall, block something off etc.

That's how provokes came about.

Fast forward to today. You can move around. You can position yourself. Squishes can kite and do if they know what they are doing. In other words, the genre has evolved over the last 30 years.

So I suggest a novel idea: get rid of skills that build hate and actually make players kite/position themselves correctly. Likewise change the AI a little accordingly. If a player gets in a mobs way it'll either:

1. Switch targets to the player that is in the way.
2. Go around.
3. Switch to ranged attacks if possible.
4. Try to find an easier target to get to.

Basically make the mobs act like a player in a PvP setting in how a player would pick and change targets. For example if a player has lost health from another mob, the first mob might abandon its target (if it's smart enough, dumb ones might not) and go after the weaker player. If a player just got healed or a defensive buff, the mob might try to find easier pickings.

I think that this is a good idea for two reasons:
1. Gets rid of an outdated mechanic.
2. Teaches players to act and position themselves more like they would in a pvp environment where you can't just count on the tanks to build hate all day.

I think it's a creepy idea. In a endgame environement you can't have a mob randomly attacking people. Your healers (and mostly dd) would get one shotted, with a good serving of wipe, since no one would be damaging the boss

No.
Aggro management is one of those areas that make tanking a skill-based/tactical job. Remove it, and it becomes nothig but twitch.

Actually controlling the mob is one of the few areas that turn PvE in an actual tactical affair instead of simple tank & spank. So no, I'm definitely agaist this kind of change.

PvP will be implemented in due course. There's no reason to try and artifically make PvE more like it (and way less tactical as that).

Provokes are so "outadated" that many modern games actually introduced them in PvP in several ways (like Warhammer Online for instance, and it worked great). So no, they're not "outdated", and should definitely stay.

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Originally Posted by yukikaze_yanagi

I think it's a creepy idea. In a endgame environement you can't have a mob randomly attacking people. Your healers (and mostly dd) would get one shotted, with a good serving of wipe, since no one would be damaging the boss

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Well then your healers and DD should kite more and melee guys should stay in the way of the mob long enough for him to switch targets.

Think about PvP, if the healer is the guy you gotta take down first, you are generally going to try to do so. Why? Because it's the smart thing to do and once the healer is down, the rest of the party goes down easier. Therefore a smarter mob should go after those guys first whenever possible.

Foes that can judge strength and weakness a little would probably go after a squishier char first but not necessarily a healer.

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Originally Posted by Abrial

Aggro management is one of those areas that make tanking a skill-based/tactical job.

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I'm not talking about removing aggro management entirely, I'm talking about making it smarter and going about it smarter. Using skills instead of tactical positioning is lame and they only exist in the first place as a crutch for a type of game that didn't have a 2d environment to move around.

Take another fine product from SE: tactics ogre. If you want to protect your weaker chars from melee, you have to get in the other melee guys way (rampant aura is a bit of a cheat though). Against a ranged attacker you have to go and get kills so he can't snipe your chars from afar. That's what tactical combat is about.

Poor idea. Strongly against it because it'll cause chaos. Pretty unintelligent to even suggest such a thing while skimming over what negative effects it could have in the game.

I don't think they should do that... It isn't like people can still do things to take eminity away from the tank even after he/she has done all his eminity skills.

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Originally Posted by Winterclaw

I'm not talking about removing aggro management entirely, I'm talking about making it smarter and going about it smarter.

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"smarter" is entirely subjective.

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Using skills instead of tactical positioning is lame and they only exist in the first place as a crutch for a type of game that didn't have a 2d environment to move around.

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Positioning doesn't necessarily require any kind of skill. It just requires walking to a place and standing there. Oh the fun.

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Take another fine product from SE: tactics ogre. If you want to protect your weaker chars from melee, you have to get in the other melee guys way (rampant aura is a bit of a cheat though). Against a ranged attacker you have to go and get kills so he can't snipe your chars from afar. That's what tactical combat is about.

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No. That's what turn based combat is about.

The problem is, how do you "get in the way" in an open environment? It's unrealistic and un-immersive if a monster only attacks what is directly in front of it and it would dumb down the intelligence of the AI.

OP's idea is indeed quite novel, and before freaking out, I think what he (or she) implies here is something I'd call Implicit Emnity where the mobs would naturally go after healers or someone that's dying. With provokes being taken away, tanks can be given abilities to cover other players, defensive bonus to those who stand behind him, and to pull the mob physically away...etc.

However, in order to make this work, the mobs need to have very sophisticated AI which are very expensive to implement. Also it's easier to exploit mobs' AI in this case when they're becoming predictable.

Anyway, I doubt SE would make such a big change for FF14 but nonetheless it is a profound idea!

What the......... Hell NO!!!! Bad idea

I'm sorry, but I really don't like this idea at all. Some of us have enough trouble getting into the right position in a fight as it is (AoE shapes, being within range to hit, being able to see your own character when the mob is 10x as big as you are, etc.). Adding this kind of mechanic only makes things more difficult, and not fun. If I'm acting as healer in a party, I don't want to have to spend the entire battle making sure I'm in exactly the right spot to not get hit as soon as the mob realises I'm squishy. Likewise, as a tank, I don't want to have to be running around in circles, trying to stay between the mob and the squishies behind me so they don't get taken out in one hit. There's also those mobs that have the knock-back skills; the minute they knock the tank out of the way, any squishies who happened to be behind the tank are now next in line, and chances are good they're going down quick, especially considering how long it takes for a player to get back into position once they've been knocked back that far.

In another game, this could possibly work, perhaps if it was implemented this way from the very beginning. In this game? No, thanks.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

Positioning doesn't necessarily require any kind of skill. It just requires walking to a place and standing there.

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Monster tries to go around you. Monster tries to fake you out. Your healer wasn't paying attention and now the monster can beeline towards him and you can't get in the way. The monster tries to knock you down, or back, so he can move past you. At least you have more potential for doing things than just standing there using the same hate skill over and over.

Have you ever played linebacker in PvP? You do know other players don't exactly stay put or only focus on you if they are trying to bring down your healer. Why should mobs act any different?

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Originally Posted by Abriael

No. That's what turn based combat is about.

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Incorrect. Just because it is in a turn based tactical combat game doesn't mean it can't be in a RT rpg.

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Originally Posted by darkocra

Implicit Emnity where the mobs would naturally go after healers or someone that's dying. With provokes being taken away, tanks can be given abilities to cover other players, defensive bonus to those who stand behind him, and to pull the mob physically away...etc.

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Yeah that's something like it but not quite. It's not like I don't dislike things like a specific cover skill or buffs to help other players, but it's a little more than that. Basically mobs should determine which player they should go after first, and how to go after him, based on the current circumstances. For example if a medium armor char is low on hp, another mob might be called in by the first mob to help finish this one off now. If the mob knows you are going to be going after his healer, he should start linebacking (based on his role within the mob party).

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Originally Posted by darkocra

However, in order to make this work, the mobs need to have very sophisticated AI which are very expensive to implement. Also it's easier to exploit mobs' AI in this case when they're becoming predictable.

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Actually it's quite easy to implement that kind of AI (something that emulates pvp). I think that devs don't implement it because it requires execution on the players part to overcome and it can get repetitive (even if it remains a challenge). Plus I think pve players in general are too lazy to learn something new and if you really wanted to do this right, you'd probably have to have an evolving pve meta to keep players on their toes.

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Originally Posted by Winterclaw

Actually it's quite easy to implement that kind of AI (something that emulates pvp). I think that devs don't implement it because it requires execution on the players part to overcome and it can get repetitive (even if it remains a challenge). Plus I think pve players in general are too lazy to learn something new and if you really wanted to do this right, you'd probably have to have an evolving pve meta to keep players on their toes.

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You're pushing the PvP v. PvE thing awfully hard. If you're so bored with the "lazy" PvE playing style, why are you playing this game? It's not intended to be primarily PvP style. That's why I like this game, because I don't like PvP, and this game lets me just play without dealing with that kind of play style or pressure. It's fun for me, and for other people who want to just play the way they like.

If you want so badly to play something geared up like PvP, play a PvP-oriented game, rather than suggesting the developers should completely change the entire AI system already set in place here.

I don't think abolishing enmity-increasing skills completely is a good idea, but I agree that positioning should play a larger role in the whole enmity dynamics.

The skill "cover" for example would be fun if it actually worked like this: The tank stands between the covered player and the mob and gets hit when something would hit the covered player. Currently, when a Gladi uses Cover and the covered character is really behind him, he is still hit by front-attacks. So yeah, covering is a nice thing. I don't think any class should be able to cover, though, so it's not just position but also a certain competence to do it right.

There still have to be skills that allow the tank to "turn around" the mob when it's going for someone else. I imagine it would be very difficult to get between the mob and the archer when it is already running there. No chance really before the archer is getting hit.

So in short:
* Make positioning more important in general.
* Allow enmity to be generated from other places than right in front of the mob (i.e. provoke or damage).
* Only tank classes/jobs should be competent to cover other players. (Not sure if a skill should be necessary there.)

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Originally Posted by Winterclaw

A brief lesson on this skills. In the early days of gaming/online gaming, dungeons and areas you could wander around were separated into small rooms. However there wasn't much you could do in these rooms; there weren't grids or maps. This made combat a problem if you wanted to protect someone... you couldn't get in the way, form a wall, block something off etc.

That's how provokes came about.

Fast forward to today. You can move around. You can position yourself. Squishes can kite and do if they know what they are doing. In other words, the genre has evolved over the last 30 years.

So I suggest a novel idea: get rid of skills that build hate and actually make players kite/position themselves correctly. Likewise change the AI a little accordingly. If a player gets in a mobs way it'll either:

1. Switch targets to the player that is in the way.
2. Go around.
3. Switch to ranged attacks if possible.
4. Try to find an easier target to get to.

Basically make the mobs act like a player in a PvP setting in how a player would pick and change targets. For example if a player has lost health from another mob, the first mob might abandon its target (if it's smart enough, dumb ones might not) and go after the weaker player. If a player just got healed or a defensive buff, the mob might try to find easier pickings.

I think that this is a good idea for two reasons:
1. Gets rid of an outdated mechanic.
2. Teaches players to act and position themselves more like they would in a pvp environment where you can't just count on the tanks to build hate all day.

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There is only one mmo that I'm aware of that uses this type of mechanic, it's called Dungeons and Dragons Online or DDO for short, in this game they have such a mechanic, and it is exploited regularly, but I guess you could go play it and see if this is really what you want. DDO is free to download and free to play so no worries about costs.

Enjoy

The game's got to be built from conception to include ideas like this, and as people have already said positioning as a reason for failure is something the population has already tried in a more simple fashion and still rejected (thief, FFXI). It's not fun. It's just frustrating.

Stupid suggestion move on

I completely disagree with the whole idea.

Bad idea.

Hate management exists for a reason.

I disagree with the OP. Without hate management, this game would sink lower than it already is. Sure, the chaos of being in a party may be fun for a bit, but repeatedly dying just because a TANK wouldn't have the abilities to TANK would surely drive people away.

Getting rid of hate creating WSs: no, bad idea.

Adding position to aggro generation factors: could be a really good fun addition of tactics, I like it.

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Originally Posted by Veroni

I don't think abolishing enmity-increasing skills completely is a good idea, but I agree that positioning should play a larger role in the whole enmity dynamics.

The skill "cover" for example would be fun if it actually worked like this: The tank stands between the covered player and the mob and gets hit when something would hit the covered player. Currently, when a Gladi uses Cover and the covered character is really behind him, he is still hit by front-attacks. So yeah, covering is a nice thing. I don't think any class should be able to cover, though, so it's not just position but also a certain competence to do it right.

There still have to be skills that allow the tank to "turn around" the mob when it's going for someone else. I imagine it would be very difficult to get between the mob and the archer when it is already running there. No chance really before the archer is getting hit.

So in short:
* Make positioning more important in general.
* Allow enmity to be generated from other places than right in front of the mob (i.e. provoke or damage).
* Only tank classes/jobs should be competent to cover other players. (Not sure if a skill should be necessary there.)

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This I could agree with; OP's idea I cannot agree with. Position = possibly good IF implemented right; taking away provoke/taunt and any other hate-enducing skill = bad. Period.

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Originally Posted by Akuun

There is only one mmo that I'm aware of that uses this type of mechanic, it's called Dungeons and Dragons Online or DDO for short, in this game they have such a mechanic, and it is exploited regularly, but I guess you could go play it and see if this is really what you want. DDO is free to download and free to play so no worries about costs.

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Originally Posted by Peregrine

The game's got to be built from conception to include ideas like this, and as people have already said positioning as a reason for failure is something the population has already tried in a more simple fashion and still rejected (thief, FFXI). It's not fun. It's just frustrating.

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DDO was built from the ground up for this sort of thing. All content is instanced ( experience points are awarded for completing instances and subgoals), and instances include claustrophobic dungeons and wide open spaces. Some of the boss fights are a bit gimmicky, and puzzles are fairly common. There is content for a variety of playstyles. Combat is very fast-paced, and you tend to be very mobile while fighting.

Um... no.

I'm a healer and I don't like PvP (which is why I play Final Fantasy, PvE-focused games). So, right away these ideas do not appeal to me.

Managing my aggro and tanks being able to provoke not only add levels of complexity to battle, but help correct inevitable mistakes.

I've already played a game with unforgiving combat that was 100% about positioning, constant movement and twitch responses. It's called WoW-Cataclysm.

No thanks.

Unfortunately it'll never work. Why would a monster ever beat on a full plate wearing tank with a shield when there are other lower defense players around? Even if they dont kill the players with auto attack, the mob will get tp faster by attacking something other than a tank.

What's the answer to that? Root and nuke as the only method of play? {Thanks, but I'll have to pass}

What I dont get is why a Marauder has enmity generating skills. I know they are changing skills with the coming battle system, but I guess it's for Marauder being some sort of off hand tank, or at least thats what the initial plan was?

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Originally Posted by Teknoman

What I dont get is why a Marauder has enmity generating skills. I know they are changing skills with the coming battle system, but I guess it's for Marauder being some sort of off hand tank, or at least thats what the initial plan was?

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They have enmity-generating abilities because they're poorly designed and thought out. Marauder is a DD job, not a tank job, and yet the developers tried to stock it with tanking abilities instead of damage abilities.

Right now Marauder is a better Gladiator subjob than it is a primary class.

I will say that people grossly overestimate the worth of provoke and taunt in the game. They generate next to no real enmity. They are status effects that wear off quickly.

Tank's ability bar should be chock full of instant abilities that don't take stamina, but DO crazily increase enmity. I don't even use provoke and taunt on single mobs to tank. You just use more profundity/dark seal/blood rite/raging strike/ferocity/hawk's eyes than anyone else.

Why have profundity on your bar if you're not going to cast. DUH, for the free enmity!

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Originally Posted by Peregrine

I will say that people grossly overestimate the worth of provoke and taunt in the game. They generate next to no real enmity. They are status effects that wear off quickly.

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Yeah, gotta say they're a little broken at the moment. I'm a CON (healer), and my husband plays a PUG (but has tanking experience in other MMOs). He always had trouble holding aggro while playing with me, until he leveled CON enough to get Cure. Now he just throws a Cure on himself instead of taunting and has no problem.

Provoke definitely needs some more oomf.

They already said that enmity will now be generated based on damage 1 to 1 and that non damage generating skills such as healing, provoke and buffing will be converted accordingly.

Did you not read the letter from the battle design team leader ?

They aren't going to change it this late into making the new battle system.

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Originally Posted by Jinko

They already said that enmity will now be generated based on damage 1 to 1 and that non damage generating skills such as healing, provoke and buffing will be converted accordingly.

Did you not read the letter from the battle design team leader ?

They aren't going to change it this late into making the new battle system.

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From the provided text, the bolded part seems like an assumption for which there is not enough information.

"A hate conversion formula will be applied to actions that target friendlies or do not inflict damage."

Provoke may very well continue to work as Peregrine described, it's design not intended for primary tank but for emergency use. We need to wait and see.

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Originally Posted by Teknoman

What I dont get is why a Marauder has enmity generating skills. I know they are changing skills with the coming battle system, but I guess it's for Marauder being some sort of off hand tank, or at least thats what the initial plan was?

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Yes, Marauder was meant to be THE Secondary/Off-hand tank, but also the PRIMARY Multi-Mob Tank. Personally, I hope SE continues in that direction since I prefer tanking with a giant weapon instead of a sword/shield when and where possible.

I still laugh at the idea of everyone huddled around the mage to protect them.
One breath or physical AoE attack (even magic if mage is w/o emulate) and it quickly becomes a death trap for the mage with no way to escape.

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Originally Posted by Dragon

Yes, Marauder was meant to be THE Secondary/Off-hand tank, but also the PRIMARY Multi-Mob Tank. Personally, I hope SE continues in that direction since I prefer tanking with a giant weapon instead of a sword/shield when and where possible.

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I agree and hope they make Pugilist a tank style class as well. I have seen all 3 of those classes tank and all 3 can do it. The problem with Pugilist is its lack of support from Dex right now for Dodging and the lack of Evasion gear at higher levels.

looking at the plans they make it even easier then it currently is by adding enmity bars (so there wont be any surprises if i dindt misunderstand who gets aggro and who keeps it unless the mob behaviour changes dramatically).

Im all for better/smarter mob behaviours, sometimes random hate changes as well so the DD and esp. Tanks have something to do while the healers/nukers/archers have to watch their health or CC. I would love that.

One can only hope that the upcoming changes are not making the loleasymode ffxiv to a cgi movie only... i would greatly welcome more challenges, for all jobs.

Some mobs already have hate resets. They are not necessarily working properly or all the time but things like "wasp" and "mole" mobs that teleport/burrow are hate reset mobs that go after the person that hits them worst after they disappear. The problem is they can be hit by late attacks so based on who actually hits them the most after they disappear is who they go after. If they work on that system more and add a few more mobs that have hate reset abilities I think the tank will have plenty to worry about.