[dev1023] Getting rid of emnity generation skills

[Winterclaw]

A brief lesson on this skills. In the early days of gaming/online gaming, dungeons and areas you could wander around were separated into small rooms. However there wasn't much you could do in these rooms; there weren't grids or maps. This made combat a problem if you wanted to protect someone... you couldn't get in the way, form a wall, block something off etc.

That's how provokes came about.

Fast forward to today. You can move around. You can position yourself. Squishes can kite and do if they know what they are doing. In other words, the genre has evolved over the last 30 years.

So I suggest a novel idea: get rid of skills that build hate and actually make players kite/position themselves correctly. Likewise change the AI a little accordingly. If a player gets in a mobs way it'll either:

1. Switch targets to the player that is in the way.
2. Go around.
3. Switch to ranged attacks if possible.
4. Try to find an easier target to get to.

Basically make the mobs act like a player in a PvP setting in how a player would pick and change targets. For example if a player has lost health from another mob, the first mob might abandon its target (if it's smart enough, dumb ones might not) and go after the weaker player. If a player just got healed or a defensive buff, the mob might try to find easier pickings.

I think that this is a good idea for two reasons:
1. Gets rid of an outdated mechanic.
2. Teaches players to act and position themselves more like they would in a pvp environment where you can't just count on the tanks to build hate all day.

[yukikaze_yanagi]

I think it's a creepy idea. In a endgame environement you can't have a mob randomly attacking people. Your healers (and mostly dd) would get one shotted, with a good serving of wipe, since no one would be damaging the boss

[Abriael]

No.
Aggro management is one of those areas that make tanking a skill-based/tactical job. Remove it, and it becomes nothig but twitch.

Actually controlling the mob is one of the few areas that turn PvE in an actual tactical affair instead of simple tank & spank. So no, I'm definitely agaist this kind of change.

PvP will be implemented in due course. There's no reason to try and artifically make PvE more like it (and way less tactical as that).

Provokes are so "outadated" that many modern games actually introduced them in PvP in several ways (like Warhammer Online for instance, and it worked great). So no, they're not "outdated", and should definitely stay.

[Winterclaw]

I think it's a creepy idea. In a endgame environement you can't have a mob randomly attacking people. Your healers (and mostly dd) would get one shotted, with a good serving of wipe, since no one would be damaging the boss

Well then your healers and DD should kite more and melee guys should stay in the way of the mob long enough for him to switch targets.

Think about PvP, if the healer is the guy you gotta take down first, you are generally going to try to do so. Why? Because it's the smart thing to do and once the healer is down, the rest of the party goes down easier. Therefore a smarter mob should go after those guys first whenever possible.

Foes that can judge strength and weakness a little would probably go after a squishier char first but not necessarily a healer.

Aggro management is one of those areas that make tanking a skill-based/tactical job.

I'm not talking about removing aggro management entirely, I'm talking about making it smarter and going about it smarter. Using skills instead of tactical positioning is lame and they only exist in the first place as a crutch for a type of game that didn't have a 2d environment to move around.

Take another fine product from SE: tactics ogre. If you want to protect your weaker chars from melee, you have to get in the other melee guys way (rampant aura is a bit of a cheat though). Against a ranged attacker you have to go and get kills so he can't snipe your chars from afar. That's what tactical combat is about.

[Issachar]

Poor idea. Strongly against it because it'll cause chaos. Pretty unintelligent to even suggest such a thing while skimming over what negative effects it could have in the game.

[Reika]

I don't think they should do that... It isn't like people can still do things to take eminity away from the tank even after he/she has done all his eminity skills.

[Abriael]

I'm not talking about removing aggro management entirely, I'm talking about making it smarter and going about it smarter.

"smarter" is entirely subjective.

Using skills instead of tactical positioning is lame and they only exist in the first place as a crutch for a type of game that didn't have a 2d environment to move around.

Positioning doesn't necessarily require any kind of skill. It just requires walking to a place and standing there. Oh the fun.

Take another fine product from SE: tactics ogre. If you want to protect your weaker chars from melee, you have to get in the other melee guys way (rampant aura is a bit of a cheat though). Against a ranged attacker you have to go and get kills so he can't snipe your chars from afar. That's what tactical combat is about.

No. That's what turn based combat is about.

[DurtiMonkeyToe]

The problem is, how do you "get in the way" in an open environment? It's unrealistic and un-immersive if a monster only attacks what is directly in front of it and it would dumb down the intelligence of the AI.

[DarkOrca]

OP's idea is indeed quite novel, and before freaking out, I think what he (or she) implies here is something I'd call Implicit Emnity where the mobs would naturally go after healers or someone that's dying. With provokes being taken away, tanks can be given abilities to cover other players, defensive bonus to those who stand behind him, and to pull the mob physically away...etc.

However, in order to make this work, the mobs need to have very sophisticated AI which are very expensive to implement. Also it's easier to exploit mobs' AI in this case when they're becoming predictable.

Anyway, I doubt SE would make such a big change for FF14 but nonetheless it is a profound idea!

[Zenaku]

What the......... Hell NO!!!! Bad idea