Is FFXIV ARR going to use WOW64 again?

Hoping they will put the effort in to not relying on an emulated environment to run the game on 64 bit platforms this time around. I havn't seen any mention of this and using WOW64 means more system resources being used to run a 32bit app as if it were 64bit.

I'd like a 64bit check button in the system option tab. Preferably in the game client itself.

Tony! Just wanted to say hi. /exit

Nice to see you lumos :)

Heres to hoping they have a true 64 bit version of the client.

Honestly I am not expecting it, as nice as it would be. I mean, the Minimum specs will almost certainly be an x64 based CPU, but for them to spend additional time developing x64 code on an ongoing project? slim to none.

potential need for 2 separate development trees requiring their own bug testing for an MMO release. Nope.
:edit: holy shit hey tony :)

I'm 99% sure ARR will be 32-bit so it can run on 32-bit windows. So yes this has to run in WoW64 on 64-bit windows. Only way to have a true 64 bit client is if SE makes two different clients or bundles both 32-bit and 64-bit clients together.

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Originally Posted by TonyUK

Hoping they will put the effort in to not relying on an emulated environment to run the game on 64 bit platforms this time around. I havn't seen any mention of this and using WOW64 means more system resources being used to run a 32bit app as if it were 64bit.

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It doesn't really matter as 32 bit applications don't lose measurable performance on 64-bit Windows. The difference in resource use is also meaningless unless you're using an absolute barest of bare minimum system to play.

I'm not saying they shouldn't do it, of course, but it's a pointless complaint. Applications gain basically nothing from being 64 bit unless they're specifically programmed to use 64-bit variables / libraries. This is why the conversion to 64-bit has been so slow- Not every application has much potential for benefit.

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I'd like a 64bit check button in the system option tab. Preferably in the game client itself.

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Programs can't flip a switch to be 32 or 64 bit. The executables have to be compiled as such. You can provide 32 and 64 bit versions of an executable though.

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Originally Posted by Junpei

Honestly I am not expecting it, as nice as it would be. I mean, the Minimum specs will almost certainly be an x64 based CPU, but for them to spend additional time developing x64 code on an ongoing project? slim to none.

potential need for 2 separate development trees requiring their own bug testing for an MMO release. Nope.
:edit: holy shit hey tony :)

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Greeting jun

They still want the game to run on Windows XP which is a 32 bit system (there is a 64 bit version, but not many people used it) therefore unless you want all patches to take twice as long, I will take a 32 bit client running on WOW64.

Also, the more casual base of computer users aren't exactly on 64 bit systems, especially because pre built ones tend to be crappy and costly not to mention upgrading to a 64 bit version of Windows is expensive for no reason. They want a lot of users this time around, so..

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Programs can't flip a switch to be 32 or 64 bit. The executables have to be compiled as such. You can provide 32 and 64 bit versions of an executable though.

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I mean like this. (large pic)

http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/7444/64bitx.jpg]

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Originally Posted by Elexia

Also, the more casual base of computer users aren't exactly on 64 bit systems, especially because pre built ones tend to be crappy and costly not to mention upgrading to a 64 bit version of Windows is expensive for no reason. They want a lot of users this time around, so..

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I know of no recent pre-built system that doesn't have 64-bit capable hardware and a matching 64-Bit OS. Some people do have older 32-Bit systems, but those are too weak to run FFXIV anyway, so they shouldn't be focusing too much on it.

64-Bit windows isn't more expensive than 32-Bit either. Just checked amazon.de and both cost the same. And if someone is still running winXP on modern hardware... no comment.

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Originally Posted by Andrien

I mean like this. (large pic)

http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/7444/64bitx.jpg]

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Which will probably be what Alhanelem said - that option will start the x64 exe istead of the x86 one.

As long as my game doesn't consistently crash in the middle of playing as a result, idc.

But if I start running through Limsa Lominsa and suddenly the walkway disappears and I fall into a void under the city causing me to run 500 malms just for fun, then give me 64 bit...

Honestly this won't matter unless a future Windows OS will be 64bit only and even then they could use a wrapper just for bare compatibility.

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Originally Posted by Dhalmel

Honestly this won't matter unless a future Windows OS will be 64bit only and even then they could use a wrapper just for bare compatibility.

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They would still need to have WOW64 for a few years at least because there are that many programs that are 32bit only.

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Originally Posted by Delsus

They would still need to have WOW64 for a few years at least because there are that many programs that are 32bit only.

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When I say 64 bit only I meant pure 64 bit, no emulation from windows.

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Originally Posted by Soukyuu

I know of no recent pre-built system that doesn't have 64-bit capable hardware and a matching 64-Bit OS. Some people do have older 32-Bit systems, but those are too weak to run FFXIV anyway, so they shouldn't be focusing too much on it.

64-Bit windows isn't more expensive than 32-Bit either. Just checked amazon.de and both cost the same. And if someone is still running winXP on modern hardware... no comment.


Which will probably be what Alhanelem said - that option will start the x64 exe istead of the x86 one.

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general rule for companies is if it's 4GB+ of RAM it has 64-bit installed because 32-bit max adressing of memory is 4GB and normally only notices about 3.5GB and people get upset, and since most systems these days even the cheapo ones are at least 4GB they almost all come with 64-bit windows.

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Originally Posted by Dhalmel

When I say 64 bit only I meant pure 64 bit, no emulation from windows.

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That won't happen for awhile yet, there are still too many programs that are still 32 bit my program files x86 has 68 folders and my program files has 29, and I always install 64 bit where possible.

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Originally Posted by Soukyuu

I know of no recent pre-built system that doesn't have 64-bit capable hardware and a matching 64-Bit OS. Some people do have older 32-Bit systems, but those are too weak to run FFXIV anyway, so they shouldn't be focusing too much on it.

64-Bit windows isn't more expensive than 32-Bit either. Just checked amazon.de and both cost the same. And if someone is still running winXP on modern hardware... no comment.

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Where are you from, Soukyuu?
I can attest that there are places where Win XP is still common in some places where amazon doesn't reaches... (hilariously in the place where the real Amazon is)

WOW64 is not an emulated environment. It's an environment that runs both 32bit and 64bit processes. WOW64's chief purpose is to keep 32bit programs and 64bit programs independent of each other so an installer doesn't overwrite 32bit binaries with 64bit ones and vice versa. You can't have mixed binaries containing both 32bit and 64bit instructions.

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Originally Posted by Laraul

WOW64 is not an emulated environment. It's an environment that runs both 32bit and 64bit processes. WOW64's chief purpose is to keep 32bit programs and 64bit programs independent of each other so an installer doesn't overwrite 32bit binaries with 64bit ones and vice versa. You can't have mixed binaries containing both 32bit and 64bit instructions.

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http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/libr...(v=vs.85).aspx

I quote from the microsoft page

"WOW64 is the x86 emulator that allows 32-bit Windows-based applications to run seamlessly on 64-bit Windows. WOW64 is provided with the operating system and does not have to be explicitly enabled. For more information, see WOW64 Implementation Details.

The system isolates 32-bit applications from 64-bit applications, which includes preventing file and registry collisions. Console, GUI, and service applications are supported. The system provides interoperability across the 32/64 boundary for scenarios such as cut and paste and COM. However, 32-bit processes cannot load 64-bit DLLs for execution, and 64-bit processes cannot load 32-bit DLLs for execution. This restriction does not apply to DLLs loaded as data files or image resource files; for more information, see LoadLibraryEx.

A 32-bit application can detect whether it is running under WOW64 by calling the IsWow64Process function. The application can obtain additional information about the processor by using the GetNativeSystemInfo function.

Note that 64-bit Windows does not support running 16-bit Windows-based applications. The primary reason is that handles have 32 significant bits on 64-bit Windows. Therefore, handles cannot be truncated and passed to 16-bit applications without loss of data. Attempts to launch 16-bit applications fail with the following error: ERROR_BAD_EXE_FORMAT."

That article clearly states it is an Emulator.

Also many games ship with x86 and x64 DLLs and provide separate executables, my earliest memory of this is the original Crysis, which is now quite old.

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Originally Posted by Skies

Where are you from, Soukyuu?
I can attest that there are places where Win XP is still common in some places where amazon doesn't reaches... (hilariously in the place where the real Amazon is)

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the .de should have been obvious, Skies :3
The only reason I quoted Amazon is because they're usually reasonable with their prices. If some shops charge more for the 64-bit version, they're merely trying to get more money by suggesting 64-bit is better cause it's 2x32-bit :P

People using winXP on modern hardware don't get the most out of it, since the scheduler of winXP only really knows how to schedule for 2 cores. Not to mention you don't get to use all of the 4GB+ you installed. You wouldn't believe how many times I heard people brag about their octacore 24GB RAM systems running... winXP.

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Originally Posted by TonyUK

That article clearly states it is an Emulator.

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Yes. The difference is, that this kind of emulation does NOT negatively impact performance, as some people believe. WOW64 emulates registry and memory access, but the underlying hardware architecture is the same (x86 with 64-bit extensions). Emulating an architecture (PS1, PS2) is what really taxes the resources. Since it's not the case here, there is no performance loss.

A 64-bit exe would have access to more memory, but other than that, I don't really see a benefit.

The engine doesn't require it nor is it really needed. Part of it is also cross compatibility of data checks. Be nice for some 64bit features, and better direct X 11 abilities, but that may come later. Since the PS3 version is using modified opengl sourcing, they need to balance it so data is effective on server side triggers.

Even for a tech enthusiast like me, this thread is getting too complicated and technical for most. It's hurting my face. Whether WOW64 mode is an emulated environment that may potentially decrease performance/use more resources compared to a native 64 bit programs is and should be left on another forum, not one for XIV. Especially since it seems different people are having different understandings of what this technology is and does. SO please take this to a tech forum to sort these things out. I can assure better and more technical results there.

I think ultimatly the OP's question should be:
"Do you think that ARR will have both a 32bit and 64bit client, or will it only be 32bit?"

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Originally Posted by TonyUK

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/libr...(v=vs.85).aspx

I quote from the microsoft page

"WOW64 is the x86 emulator that allows 32-bit Windows-based applications to run seamlessly on 64-bit Windows. WOW64 is provided with the operating system and does not have to be explicitly enabled. For more information, see WOW64 Implementation Details.

The system isolates 32-bit applications from 64-bit applications, which includes preventing file and registry collisions. Console, GUI, and service applications are supported. The system provides interoperability across the 32/64 boundary for scenarios such as cut and paste and COM. However, 32-bit processes cannot load 64-bit DLLs for execution, and 64-bit processes cannot load 32-bit DLLs for execution. This restriction does not apply to DLLs loaded as data files or image resource files; for more information, see LoadLibraryEx.

A 32-bit application can detect whether it is running under WOW64 by calling the IsWow64Process function. The application can obtain additional information about the processor by using the GetNativeSystemInfo function.

Note that 64-bit Windows does not support running 16-bit Windows-based applications. The primary reason is that handles have 32 significant bits on 64-bit Windows. Therefore, handles cannot be truncated and passed to 16-bit applications without loss of data. Attempts to launch 16-bit applications fail with the following error: ERROR_BAD_EXE_FORMAT."

That article clearly states it is an Emulator.

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Sounds like simply making a swap-able 32 and 64 bit executable is out of the question. They would have to have 64 bit almost everything in order to be non-emulated.

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Originally Posted by VoltaAsura

Even for a tech enthusiast like me, this thread is getting too complicated and technical for most. It's hurting my face. Whether WOW64 mode is an emulated environment that may potentially decrease performance/use more resources compared to a native 64 bit programs is and should be left on another forum, not one for XIV. Especially since it seems different people are having different understandings of what this technology is and does. SO please take this to a tech forum to sort these things out. I can assure better and more technical results there.

I think ultimatly the OP's question should be:
"Do you think that ARR will have both a 32bit and 64bit client, or will it only be 32bit?"

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I think its fine for XIV forums, since we are talking about XIV client here... Its good info nonetheless, no reason to bar it.

and I believe they'll at the most have just 32 bit ready and we will have to rely on the emulation, but would be nice if they had a 64 bit update for it all down the line.

The simple fact is WoW64 doesn't meaningfully decrease 32 bit application performance. I've never seen a side by side comparison on identical hardware that proved otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

The simple fact is WoW64 doesn't meaningfully decrease 32 bit application performance. I've never seen a side by side comparison on identical hardware that proved otherwise.

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This is true. However, if FFXIV is going to support modding as SE has claimed it eventually will, the modding community will be limited in what they're able to do with the limited amount of address space unless SE makes a true 64 bit client.

And on general principle, it's 20-friggin'-13. If someone isn't using a 64-bit OS at this point, they shouldn't be computering.

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Originally Posted by Eekiki

This is true. However, if FFXIV is going to support modding as SE has claimed it eventually will, the modding community will be limited in what they're able to do with the limited amount of address space unless SE makes a true 64 bit client.

And on general principle, it's 20-friggin'-13. If someone isn't using a 64-bit OS at this point, they shouldn't be computering.

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So by your laws, 34.67% of the world then? Not to menton it was only July 2012 that Windows 7 overtook XP as the most used OS. http://www.netmarketshare.com/os-mar....aspx?qprid=11

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Originally Posted by Delsus

So by your laws, 34.67% of the world then?

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I can only dream...

x64 ARR will allow some of us to almost completely cache the game in memory...heh...

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Originally Posted by Eekiki

This is true. However, if FFXIV is going to support modding as SE has claimed it eventually will, the modding community will be limited in what they're able to do with the limited amount of address space unless SE makes a true 64 bit client.

And on general principle, it's 20-friggin'-13. If someone isn't using a 64-bit OS at this point, they shouldn't be computering.

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The whole reason transition to 64-bit has been slow is it takes a lot to be able to realize the benefits. The primary benefit is, as you mentioned, being able to address more memory - but few applications need anywhere near that amount of memory - and being able to use larger float and int variables (signed 32 bit integers max out at + and - 2.1 billion) efficiently, again, something not every application can benefit from. Tying in with your post, It's extremely unlikely that any add-ons would need the extra memory space- on top of that, using this space would basically guarantee the add-on wouldn't work with the ps3 version which doesn't have that much memory (in the event the ps3 version supports add-ons, which is certainly possible but unlikely. A few games [or at least one] such as Unreal Tournament 3 support the use of custom mods made on the PC version of the game)

The transition from 16 to 32 bit PC software (and from 8 to 16) was very quick because the benefits were much larger in those cases.