Shaders?

Looking at the screenshots that have recently been released I was wondering what happened to the shaders that were applied to things like metal armor, hair, and leather?

Are they just not on? Not in the client yet? Or are they permanently gone? ;___;

I'm not sure what the official stance is on this anymore because they say they are adding them and then don't. Yoshi said at some point long ago that they were still working on the leather and fur shaders. This was before Alpha though, so I suspect they should have completed them by Alpha and certainly by now, so maybe they've just been eliminated entirely.

They mentioned recently they were still working on the dragoon armour lighting effects though, so this could mean that maybe the metal shaders haven't been finalised, and therefore everything may not be finalised yet either, I dunno.

http://static.finalfantasyxiv.com/to.../16/8823_9.jpg

From that image, it does seem like there haven't been any shaders applied at all to the surfaces/ All the materials look the same as all the other materials, and especially dull. So yeah, at least in those indoor screencaps, there seem to be little evidence of shaders working. In the outdoor pics, things seem more promising though, but still not near 1.0's diversity and quality.

The game has some nice shadow effects, as you can see in the videos. Isn't that enough?

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Originally Posted by Laraul

The game has some nice shadow effects, as you can see in the videos. Isn't that enough?

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Not really.

"All content shown is under development and subject to change."

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m5...10fwo1_250.gif

This is why we can't have nice things...

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Originally Posted by Celia

Not really.

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This. Can we have metal that looks like metal ? Even in 1.0 the reflections/light on the metal weren't that good imho.

I didn't find a better pic, but this gave the idea anyway...

http://www.arena.net/blog/wp-content...neup_Heavy.jpg

Ok GW2 is worse, it sux blaablaa , but look at those metal shaders...

FFXIV it's supposed to be one of the best looking mmo right?

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Originally Posted by KiriA500

"All content shown is under development and subject to change."

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m5...10fwo1_250.gif

This is why we can't have nice things...

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That's why I was asking, I was wondering if the devs would say what stage of development the shaders are in, or if they were going to be implemented at all.

It's a totally different graphics engine, one SE have built from the ground up, so things are being done differently to 1.0 (which just used FFXIII's 'Crystal Tools' engine). Please, give them time!

I just hope this doesn't mean we're now going to be inundated with 'shader' threads like the grass ones. *sighs*

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Originally Posted by Dragonheart

This. Can we have metal that looks like metal ? Even in 1.0 the reflections/light on the metal weren't that good imho.

I didn't find a better pic, but this gave the idea anyway...

http://www.arena.net/blog/wp-content...neup_Heavy.jpg

Ok GW2 is worse, it sux blaablaa , but look at those metal shaders...

FFXIV it's supposed to be one of the best looking mmo right?

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Metal armor doesn't always look shiny, though. The pics you presented look more like glass, lacquered or enameled armor than actual plain old metal.

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

It's a totally different graphics engine, one SE have built from the ground up, so things are being done differently to 1.0 (which just used FFXIII's 'Crystal Tools' engine). Please, give them time!

I just hope this doesn't mean we're now going to be inundated with 'shader' threads like the grass ones. *sighs*

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So people are not allowed to care about something? Its being worked on dont make any comments!

/sigh that people think they need to forum police what they dont approve on

Edit: To Enkidoh's credit on the next page they apologize for coming off harsh and only meant they dont want to see threads turning into flame wars. (Not directed at Enkidoh: Still, even if its under construction you can make comments and the OP's was very reasonable - and they put no "has to be fixed now" statement, please don't forum police just because its not your issue)

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

It's a totally different graphics engine, one SE have built from the ground up, so things are being done differently to 1.0 (which just used FFXIII's 'Crystal Tools' engine). Please, give them time!

I just hope this doesn't mean we're now going to be inundated with 'shader' threads like the grass ones. *sighs*

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I wasn't asking for the dev team to rush it, and I really love the new engine. I just hadn't seen any shader changes between Alpha and Beta Phase I shots and was hoping that since we're due to get some information about beta and ARR from the dev team soon that they might make a single sentence statement on the progress of shaders.

That's literally all this is about.

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Originally Posted by Celia

I wasn't asking for the dev team to rush it, and I really love the new engine. I just hadn't seen any shader changes between Alpha and Beta Phase I shots and was hoping that since we're due to get some information about beta and ARR from the dev team soon that they might make a single sentence statement on the progress of shaders.

That's literally all this is about.

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There are some graphic questions in the Live Q/A compilation thread but nothing about shaders, could add it to the list. QA Thread

Else in beta probably could get an answer, in the first phase it says they are tweaking graphic options (Road Map). Or then later there is a graphic milestone planned with known addition of DX10/11 but I'm hoping more comes in that update :P

I remember Yoshida saying 1.0 used too many shaders and it really bogged the system down, but also I remember in some earlier alpha videos that he mentioned that not all the shaders were in or even properly in. So.. Who knows lol

That's okay Celia, in hindsight I'm really sorry if I sounded harsh - I guess I just didn't want to see another iteration of grass threads devolving into flame wars again.

I presume updates on the graphic engine design would be included in Yoshi-P's upcoming Letter from the Producer Live event in any event.

Shaders are the new grass.

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Originally Posted by Garlen

Shaders are the new grass.

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I know its meant to be funny but all you guys do when you do this is promote a toxic community that makes fun of its members for the thing they care about.

OP was not unreasonable -at all-, no table flipping or anything, they just wanted to know if anyone had info on the shaders.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LRWnJZp4aps
Look at the difference between alpha and beta versions of 1.0. There were big changes made graphically. Im sure theres no need to worry :)

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Originally Posted by Undrentide

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LRWnJZp4aps
Look at the difference between alpha and beta versions of 1.0. There were big changes made graphically. Im sure theres no need to worry :)

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No idea what it is called but I like the shadow effects they added into the textures themselves most obvious at:
http://youtu.be/LRWnJZp4aps?t=1m2s

A big change right there

My mind whirls at what possibilities will happen in their milestone update planned after release.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

No idea what it is called but I like the shadow effects they added into the textures themselves most obvious at:
http://youtu.be/LRWnJZp4aps?t=1m2s

A big change right there

My mind whirls at what possibilities will happen in their milestone update planned after release.

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I think they changed the lighting system and made more detailed texture maps of the floor/ceiling specifically.

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Originally Posted by Celia

I think they changed the lighting system and made more detailed texture maps of the floor/ceiling specifically.

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Yeah I was trying to remember what it is called when you add shadow into the texture itself. I googled the names I was thinking of- totally wrong haha (really killing me so if someone knows the name I'd appreciate the graphics lesson lol)

But the effect is really great because its so low on processing power but looks 3d - though I'm curious in their DX11 support if they will throw in tessellation.

Also about shaders- I'd like to see a wet shader :D

Rocks near water and such (or heavy rain) - also in the future Yoshida said we can probably swim, so after we get out of the water that would be awesome.

I guess you mean bump mapping?

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Originally Posted by Shougun

Yeah I was trying to remember what it is called when you add shadow into the texture itself. I googled the names I was thinking of- totally wrong haha (really killing me so if someone knows the name I'd appreciate the graphics lesson lol)

But the effect is really great because its so low on processing power but looks 3d - though I'm curious in their DX11 support if they will throw in tessellation.

Also about shaders- I'd like to see a wet shader :D

Rocks near water and such (or heavy rain) - also in the future Yoshida said we can probably swim, so after we get out of the water that would be awesome.

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As I recall they had a very basic wet shader in 1.0, I remember when it rained my hair would get darker and would look wetter as a result. I'd be surprised if they'd have tesselation on release, I mean the game has to run well on PS3 too and so far as I know PS3 doesn't support that. They may one day release an official graphics upgrade specifically for the PC version (like Bethesda has done with Skyrim), but I sincerely doubt that would take priority over new content.

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Originally Posted by Klefth

I guess you mean bump mapping?

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Faack lol~!

I was going through displacement maps, parallax, shaders, different types of lighting systems... such a horrible brain fry

But yeah.. Thanks :P

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Originally Posted by Celia

As I recall they had a very basic wet shader in 1.0, I remember when it rained my hair would get darker and would look wetter as a result. I'd be surprised if they'd have tesselation on release, I mean the game has to run well on PS3 too and so far as I know PS3 doesn't support that. They may one day release an official graphics upgrade specifically for the PC version (like Bethesda has done with Skyrim), but I sincerely doubt that would take priority over new content.

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Oh I meant on their graphic milestone update - which was mentioned in the original road map I'm pretty sure.

Yoshida said in this update planned a few months after release of ARR they will support DX10/11 and do some other stuff.

So I was wondering what kind of stuff they were going to do. This update is where I like to pile on requests for other graphical options. Of course they could have many graphical milestones, which would be pretty badass - most mmo's take their sweet time to update after release. WoW took what like 8 years? lol

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Originally Posted by KiriA500

"All content shown is under development and subject to change."

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m5...10fwo1_250.gif

This is why we can't have nice things...

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The thread should have been locked after this was posted lol

It doesn't look like metal, cause there's no lights in the room to reflect...well actually there is on top of helmet.
if you'd step out in daylight, you'd sparkle like the sun!

Like this?
http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:A...QjbYre8LrwkuBK

:D

Though metal shader is interesting because its not a gloss but its also reflective and shiny.. good fun :P

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Originally Posted by Shougun

Like this?
http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:A...QjbYre8LrwkuBK

:D

Though metal shader is interesting because its not a gloss but its also reflective and shiny.. good fun :P

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yes like that :)
i don't think metal will reflect environment, just light. So in shadow, the metal will probably look a bit dull; in sunlight, not so much.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

No idea what it is called but I like the shadow effects they added into the textures themselves most obvious at:
http://youtu.be/LRWnJZp4aps?t=1m2s

A big change right there

My mind whirls at what possibilities will happen in their milestone update planned after release.

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i think it's just higher quality textures in general, otherwise it's called ambient occlusion ^^

"In computer graphics, ambient occlusion attempts to approximate the way light radiates in real life, especially off what are normally considered non-reflective surfaces.
Unlike local methods like Phong shading, ambient occlusion is a global method, meaning the illumination at each point is a function of other geometry in the scene. However, it is a very crude approximation to full global illumination. The soft appearance achieved by ambient occlusion alone is similar to the way an object appears on an overcast day."

http://www.interstation3d.com/tutori...s/dirt_map.jpg

This picture isn't best example, b/c it's a dark room with almost no lights. You should check other pics. On other pics I can see the metal shaders, at least similar to 1.0 version. But we'll surely know on the 25th :).

A decent metal shader shouldn't be taxing on the system at all.
That's one thing that's been bothering me about ARR is how everything looks matte. Like its all made out of the same soft texture.

I would be really surprised if they kept it like this. But what would really impress me would be some realtime subsurface scattering.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

So people are not allowed to care about something? Its being worked on dont make any comments!

/sigh that people think they need to forum police what they dont approve on

Edit: To Enkidoh's credit on the next page they apologize for coming off harsh and only meant they dont want to see threads turning into flame wars. (Not directed at Enkidoh: Still, even if its under construction you can make comments and the OP's was very reasonable - and they put no "has to be fixed now" statement, please don't forum police just because its not your issue)

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It's not a matter of caring about something, it seems just like the "grass" issue to me, where people are prematurely complaining about something that clearly isn't ready yet. There's a good possibility that certain graphical features and such will be disabled initially.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

It's not a matter of caring about something, it seems just like the "grass" issue to me, where people are prematurely complaining about something that clearly isn't ready yet. There's a good possibility that certain graphical features and such will be disabled initially.

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But to be fair, none of us have any idea what will or won't be changed or improved.

It's probably better to play it safe and let them know the issues we have with it now instead of after the game is out, even if they already plan on changing it; because we really don't know their specific plans regarding it.

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Originally Posted by Gramul

A decent metal shader shouldn't be taxing on the system at all.
That's one thing that's been bothering me about ARR is how everything looks matte. Like its all made out of the same soft texture.

I would be really surprised if they kept it like this. But what would really impress me would be some realtime subsurface scattering.

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Lols, Subsurface Scattering would certainly be awesome, but maybe next decade :)
That stuff gonna revolutionize gaming graphics.

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Originally Posted by Radacci

i think it's just higher quality textures in general, otherwise it's called ambient occlusion ^^

"In computer graphics, ambient occlusion attempts to approximate the way light radiates in real life, especially off what are normally considered non-reflective surfaces.
Unlike local methods like Phong shading, ambient occlusion is a global method, meaning the illumination at each point is a function of other geometry in the scene. However, it is a very crude approximation to full global illumination. The soft appearance achieved by ambient occlusion alone is similar to the way an object appears on an overcast day."

http://www.interstation3d.com/tutori...s/dirt_map.jpg

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I dont think what happened in that alpha -> beta video for 1.0 was ambient occlusion beacuse the shadows were built into the texture without regards to nearby 3d objects. Also 1.0's ambient occlusion was a massive memory leak lol but I do believe Yoshida said that they'd get it properly working in ARR so :D :D

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

It's not a matter of caring about something, it seems just like the "grass" issue to me, where people are prematurely complaining about something that clearly isn't ready yet. There's a good possibility that certain graphical features and such will be disabled initially.

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There is a deep seeded issue with this. If people honestly believe this then they should never take part in -any- feedback of the game (at least until beta, and even then I imagine some people that think like this will say "its just beta, stop giving feedback about this"- not saying you would say that.. just I know some will say it to what they dont care for). Why comment on the combat system when it can change, why comment on the job system when it can change, why comment on the economy when it can change, why comment on the graphics when it can change, why comment on the music when it can change, why comment on any of the game content when it can change, why comment at all. (Through beta, through release and on all faculties are constantly taking edits, there may be a premium time to make suggestions but there is never a "you may not speak" time as everything is always able to evolve and is/can be in the air (unless you can read Yoshida's mind), or unless you count NDA.. then you really cant speak :P)

This logic is flawed for a forum designed for feedback and suggestions (funny side note, they made a bunch of sub forums for each topic but general discussion gets the most hits so its really the best place to discuss things lol).

I don't think its impossible that they have improvements, for things like grass already prepared - but since we don't know about it its pretty much not there and if we are not allowed to make those kind of comments.. then we fall back into what I said above - where as everything is in change nothing can be talked about - if we know a solution is coming then that is a different story.

Sure some people don't care for certain issues or like to mock others for how little of an issue it is to them - but to blame it on "its probably going to change" means that NO things should be talked about.

Instead if someone isn't suggestion something that will destroy your game, and you really don't care about it- then just leave it alone and let the Devs to decide.

Its not like I in the grass thread said ARR will die if they don't listen to me, or that I said it needs to happen this second (many times in that thread I suggested it be done after release or if someone has free time), or that I also said that if it changes during beta or if Yoshida mentions it I wont bother making it a point. People just like to forum police and often the logic is irrational.

My other favorite reasoning is that people have some understanding of Yoshida's exact available resources and no one can ask anything because they need to carefully plan Yoshida's resource expenditure out for him.

All these "graphical improvement" discussion aren't about graphics but vague requests for improved appearances built on the belief that adding more "graphic technologies" will magically grant their desires. The problem is aesthetics is a personal preference that varies between individuals. What people never seem to notice is how quick new "graphical improvements" rapidly become dull after the 4th time seen, which prompts for more requests to improve the visuals.

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Originally Posted by Laraul

All these "graphical improvement" discussion aren't about graphics but vague requests for improved appearances built on the belief that adding more "graphic technologies" will magically grant their desires. The problem is aesthetics is a personal preference that varies between individuals. What people never seem to notice is how quick new "graphical improvements" rapidly become dull after the 4th time seen, which prompts for more requests to improve the visuals.

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. . . There is nothing vague about shaders. The metal shader is obvious and it looks good (imo). That and if you make a great metal shader - there is not much you can do to improve on it. Make it more.. metally?

(Also I cant speak for others but beautiful game != rapidly dull. I loaded my skyrim with some graphic mods, I drool everywhere I go - I wander around more then I do anything else and I freaking love it.. In fact I have to set goals before I start playing else I'll just wander the map in a dream state)

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Originally Posted by Laraul

All these "graphical improvement" discussion aren't about graphics but vague requests for improved appearances built on the belief that adding more "graphic technologies" will magically grant their desires. The problem is aesthetics is a personal preference that varies between individuals. What people never seem to notice is how quick new "graphical improvements" rapidly become dull after the 4th time seen, which prompts for more requests to improve the visuals.

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If it's done in a good way to begin with, it will still look good 10 years from now; even if there's stuff that looks better then.
Look at journey for example, taking the art style it uses, i don't see how it can really improve much more, and i don't see how it would quickly become dull.

Anyways i know what you mean, and i agree; But i think there should be a minimal threshold; and if you manage that, it will last very long. And honestly, FF games have always tried to keep a high standard when it comes to graphics. I don't see why players, or SE themselves would sell themselves short on the subject. Yoshi is pointing out himself he wants to meet certain standards, so why shouldn't we suggest certain standards? i don't think anyone has made any unrealistic suggestions on the subject.
We shouldn't stop making suggestions, just because some people that don't have any standards, think it's fine as it is. ARR was made because 1.0 didn't meet a lot of peoples standards; so it would be to trip on the finish line, if you disregarded certain standards...just because some think it's fine as it is.

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Originally Posted by Celia

Looking at the screenshots that have recently been released I was wondering what happened to the shaders that were applied to things like metal armor, hair, and leather?

Are they just not on? Not in the client yet? Or are they permanently gone? ;___;

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Let's hope! ^^

These things do take time, but it is nice to /poke to see if we can get a response.
It is something to be concern about but i'm sure Yoshi and his team won't leave them out.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

. . . There is nothing vague about shaders. The metal shader is obvious and it looks good (imo). That and if you make a great metal shader - there is not much you can do to improve on it. Make it more.. metally?

(Also I cant speak for others but beautiful game != rapidly dull. I loaded my skyrim with some graphic mods, I drool everywhere I go - I wander around more then I do anything else and I freaking love it.. In fact I have to set goals before I start playing else I'll just wander the map in a dream state)

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I'm not sure if i'm reading this post right, but if you're saying;

"They won't need to change the shaders"

They answer is; they will. Most likely just converted or adjusted but they will indefinably be using new shaders for FFXIV:ARR's various charachter/static models and that in itself is a HEFTY task.

But yet again I may have mis-read the post. We'll see

But as I said in my last post: "It is something to be concern about but i'm sure Yoshi and his team won't leave them out."

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Originally Posted by Shioban

I'm not sure if i'm reading this post right, but if you're saying

"They won't need to change the shaders"

They answer is; they will. Most likely just converted or adjusted but they will indefinably be using new shaders for FFXIV:ARR's various charachter/static models and that in itself is a HEFTY task.

But yet again I may have mis-read the post. We'll see

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Oh I said if you make the metal shader well enough the first time you dont need to update it later lol - because the person I was quoting was mentioning the cyclic traits of increasing graphics. If you increase something people will expect more later, and you will always be increasing the graphics (which is true if you look at the graphics of games - every cycle gets better. But I'd hardly call reaching forward a bad thing).

Anyway, I said it as this is one of those things you do once and then you really dont need to look back at, at least for a long time. "What are you going to do, make it more metaly? - You already achieved the effect"

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Originally Posted by Shougun

Oh I said if you make the metal shader well enough the first time you dont need to update it later lol - because the person I was quoting was mentioning the cyclic traits of increasing graphics. If you increase something people will expect more later, and you will always be increasing the graphics (which is true if you look at the graphics of games - every cycle gets better. But I'd hardly call reaching forward a bad thing).

Anyway, I said it as this is one of those things you do once and then you really dont need to look back at, at least for a long time. "What are you going to do, make it more metaly? - You already achieved the effect"

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Yup, in this case its not a matter of "remaking" its more converting and adjusting, which is where the time-consumption comes in.
And that's on top of all the new assets. Must be a mad-house at times.