Make Classes Cap at 30 and Job Stones have Job Levels

What if the Classes only learned abilities to level 30....and no more. Meaning that all classes cap at 30 and not 50. Then at 30 you get multiple job stones (Through Quests)... and each job has its own job levels and abilities

Example:

Conjuror : Cure Aero Protect Raise ?

- Geomancer (30 - Cap) Damage dealer
- White Mage (30 - Cap) Healing
- Green Mage (30 - Cap) Buffs / Debuffs

The class abilities give the most basic skills...maybe just 5 spells? Then the classes evolve into mastered versions of those 5ish class abilites.

And you could be a level 50 White mage but only a level 30 Green Mage....Just have to swap the job stones.

This way the jobs can have their own identity and fit into the armory system.

*Edit*
Perhaps have cross job abilities for jobs sharing the same class.

or they could just remove classes all together while they are at it.

oh, this topic again

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Originally Posted by fusional

oh, this topic again

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Oh this idea was proposed a couple times already? Guessed I missed them.

This would solve the annoying "make classes good at stuff" thing but Honestly I like the system the way it is, it's more creative and free.

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Originally Posted by Sypherblade

Oh this idea was proposed a couple times already? Guessed I missed them.

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A topic on this or something similar has been made on the forums at least every other week since jobs came out.

Can I ask what would the point of classes be in your idea?

If a class can never reach the same levels at which a job can then where is that classes place?

It seems that once you hit 31+ then classes are instantly obselete because you have made it impossible that they develop further.

I'm not trying to dismiss you're idea but I wonder how it would fix the problems of the armory system?

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Originally Posted by Sypherblade

Oh this idea was proposed a couple times already? Guessed I missed them.

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people have suggested the classes cap at a certain level then have the jobs take over from there, yes. and what's really the difference between your proposed system and how it will very likely work in the end anyway, with multiple job stones at 50? why limit the class to 30? what's the point, other than adding more level grinding to the mix?

mostly i don't understand why these threads keep popping up. the armory system is part of the game. it's going to be part of release version. changing it would require far too much work (and, therefore, cost too much) and would delay release for a long, long time. the entire game would need to be rebalanced around a new system.

there isn't even anything broken about the current system, it's just a preference thing with some people. classes are generic, flexible placeholders for jobs which are more specialized for group dynamics. that's the intention and it works just fine in practice. nothing needs to be fixed, it just bothers a small group of people for whatever reason. so why fundamentally re-redesign the system around the preference of a very small minority?

people want to share their opinions or whatever and that's cool, but unless there is a glaring flaw and/or fundamentally broken element to the system, it will never change. so making these threads about classes/jobs/the armory seems like a lot of wasted effort.

why not focus more on things that are actually broken and need fixed? (ie: 1.0 retainer lag, sp gains, physical level system, lack of sort function, etc) why does the forum spend so much time splitting hairs over preference issues?

That seems almost more convoluted.

I think it's better to just have job stones as a system of equip-able abilities as it stands now. The current iteration of jobs still has a sense of progression in that you must perform the job quests in order to get the abilities.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

Can I ask what would the point of classes be in your idea?

If a class can never reach the same levels at which a job can then where is that classes place?

It seems that once you hit 31+ then classes are instantly obselete because you have made it impossible that they develop further.

I'm not trying to dismiss you're idea but I wonder how it would fix the problems of the armory system?

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Develop them further? Thats what the job system is in this idea. Your going from being a novice to mastering the whole class. From broad range, to a focus.

In the Conjuror example...the armory system still applies... White Mage, Green Mage, and Geomancer all still share a weapon.

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Originally Posted by Sypherblade

Develop them further? Thats what the job system is in this idea. Your going from being a novice to mastering the whole class. From broad range, to a focus.

In the Conjuror example...the armory system still applies... White Mage, Green Mage, and Geomancer all still share a weapon.

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that doesnt seem to change anything though. other than save you a bit of levelling it doesnt seem to have any real purpose.

How is levelling cnj from 1-30 and whm 31-50 any different from levelling whm 1-50? how does the armory system make that whm any different?

under your system it seems the only real gain would be that if i then went to level green mage i'd have 30 less levels to grind. but that green mage would then be closely connected to whm and cnj and restricted.

if you were to level green mage from 1-50 without that connection then you have infinitely more freedom in what that greenmage can be.

this is why i kind of see the armory going one of 2 ways if it stays. either we'll have 20 classes and 20 jobs to go with them. (kinda pointless) or a situation where se are restricted. to release one new job they must release 8 or 9. otherwise you get unbalance with one class having 2 job options and another class having only 1. and also each of those jobs being further restricted to the frame of the last. for example to make a dps job for a gladiator you would need to change a gladiators mechanincs which in turn would change a paladins mechaincs because it is built on the same frame. just seems far to restrictive.

Anyway all of this is based on the old of 1.0 so I'm going to go eat some dinner and cross my fingers for ARR

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Originally Posted by Sypherblade

Develop them further? Thats what the job system is in this idea. Your going from being a novice to mastering the whole class. From broad range, to a focus.

In the Conjuror example...the armory system still applies... White Mage, Green Mage, and Geomancer all still share a weapon.

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Another attempt to destroy classes. This is getting ridiculous. This would become far more convoluted and doesn't offer the chance to make a build for solo play.

Also, people have already leveled their conjurers to 50.

there's really no point having classes stopping halfway to 50. either they go to 50 as designed and branch off into jobs from there, or abolish classes altogether.

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Originally Posted by Ikkenoe

there's really no point having classes stopping halfway to 50. either they go to 50 as designed and branch off into jobs from there, or abolish classes altogether.

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I hope they are taken as far as any level cap. As a crafter I do a lot of farming.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

that doesnt seem to change anything though. other than save you a bit of levelling it doesnt seem to have any real purpose.

How is levelling cnj from 1-30 and whm 31-50 any different from levelling whm 1-50? how does the armory system make that whm any different?

under your system it seems the only real gain would be that if i then went to level green mage i'd have 30 less levels to grind. but that green mage would then be closely connected to whm and cnj and restricted.

if you were to level green mage from 1-50 without that connection then you have infinitely more freedom in what that greenmage can be.

this is why i kind of see the armory going one of 2 ways if it stays. either we'll have 20 classes and 20 jobs to go with them. (kinda pointless) or a situation where se are restricted. to release one new job they must release 8 or 9. otherwise you get unbalance with one class having 2 job options and another class having only 1. and also each of those jobs being further restricted to the frame of the last. for example to make a dps job for a gladiator you would need to change a gladiators mechanincs which in turn would change a paladins mechaincs because it is built on the same frame. just seems far to restrictive.

Anyway all of this is based on the old of 1.0 so I'm going to go eat some dinner and cross my fingers for ARR

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I see exactly what your saying, and I agree...but SE seems dedicated to the Class > Job system...which makes it harder for future classes to appear without just being clones of the current ones with just a handful of different abilities.

Perhaps take it a step further... and have Jobs stemming from the same class can share some of the same abilities...like a White Mage can use SOME of the Geomancer spells too...

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Originally Posted by Sypherblade

I see exactly what your saying, and I agree...but SE seems dedicated to the Class > Job system...which makes it harder for future classes to appear without just being clones of the current ones with just a handful of different abilities.

Perhaps take it a step further... and have Jobs stemming from the same class can share some of the same abilities...like a White Mage can use SOME of the Geomancer spells too...

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That's going to leave you with the problem of GEO/WHM feeling even more similar than they would be if they each offered unique, exclusive powers beyond their base class, which was part of the problem people had with the original Armoury implementation - everyone built characters out of the same "best" powers.

@fusional: FWIW, I suspect by now most people have already talked themselves to death of the things that were actually broken from 1.0. The devs know, hopefully 2.0 will fix them, but until we get into the beta we won't know. And even then, that'll be a topic for the beta forums, not the public ones.

...Or you could accept the fact that this game has both an armory and a job system, and instead urge the developers to make each system distinctly different from each other, use different game mechanics, and be equal in power to each other to enhance player customization. Then, revamp whatever tutorial ARR has to support each armory/job mechanic and make it to where people stop automatically coming to the conclusion that jobs > professions.

Making the Pugilist and Monk completely different character archetypes that fit their respective lores, for example. Hired thug and bar fighter does NOT equal meditating spiritualist from the mountains. Give both systems different animation patterns, exclusive skills and alternate forms of existing skills, and add a questline with a plot that adequately explains why a bar fighter becomes a monk. The current quest does not count. Archaeology doesn't magically give bar fighters the ability to become a full-fledged black belt in a spiritualist kung fu-esque martial art.

There are exceptions to the norm already (*cough* THM and CON *cough*), so why not just make the system more lenient towards adding more exceptions to the norm?

The current systems - especially the armory system - could work very well with each other (and opposed to each other) given a few gameplay updates, tweaks and refinements. Switching completely to a new system would not.

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Making the Pugilist and Monk completely different character archetypes that fit their respective lores, for example. Hired thug and bar fighter does NOT equal meditating spiritualist from the mountains.

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Monks are not necessarily "meditating spiritualists from the mountains" nor are pugilists necessarily thugs and tavern brawlers.

Classes are useless. This is the truth. :(

I agree as of 1.0 class are pretty useless not sire how it will turn out in 2.0 but i do hope they balance it out for classes to have benefits as jobs are. Have to wait and see

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Originally Posted by Enma

Classes are useless. This is the truth. :(

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oh, well i guess since you say so it *must* be true

meanwhile... thm ends up being vital for sub-10 minute darnus hard kills, and an excellent safety net for 1 whm ifrit extreme groups

and completely aside from that, you're quite clearly missing the bigger picture. though people have touched on the big picture often enough now that if you're still not seeing it, any further attempts to explain the class-to-job concept would be wasted

in the end you're just going to repeat the "well classes are useless" line and say it's true based on your own personal experience

I can get stupider reading these threadz. Moar!

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Originally Posted by yoshikwalla

...Or you could accept the fact that this game has both an armory and a job system, and instead urge the developers to make each system distinctly different from each other, use different game mechanics, and be equal in power to each other to enhance player customization. Then, revamp whatever tutorial ARR has to support each armory/job mechanic and make it to where people stop automatically coming to the conclusion that jobs > professions.

Making the Pugilist and Monk completely different character archetypes that fit their respective lores, for example. Hired thug and bar fighter does NOT equal meditating spiritualist from the mountains. Give both systems different animation patterns, exclusive skills and alternate forms of existing skills, and add a questline with a plot that adequately explains why a bar fighter becomes a monk. The current quest does not count. Archaeology doesn't magically give bar fighters the ability to become a full-fledged black belt in a spiritualist kung fu-esque martial art.

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This ^

Everything about this post is ++++++!

I was trying to make this apparent to the people on the "Removing elemental nukes from WHM" thread, but I am not very good with words.

:)

I would say no due to the fact if it is capped at 30 you can not have skills from other classes if you don't want to play as a job. Other than that you can just say once I get my Job the classes is capped at 30 and you will never know the difference.

How about just fix classes and make them meaningful.

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Originally Posted by Kallera

Another attempt to destroy classes. This is getting ridiculous. This would become far more convoluted and doesn't offer the chance to make a build for solo play.

Also, people have already leveled their conjurers to 50.

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Let's be real, classes in the form they tried to make work didn't work at all and it honestly would have been better in the form the OP talked about.

It is a remade game so in reality they could do anything they want. People may have leveled to 50 but guess what? SE isn't targetting the 13-18k ish people who stuck around with FFXIV, they want a bigger slice of the pie of people who never touched XIV or they wouldn't be remaking XIV into ARR. If they ever did something that major it wouldn't have affected their targeted audience one bit.

The job system honestly fixed a lot what was wrong with the game class wise, so while they wouldn't do this specifically, a major change like this would actually work pretty well as it would be somewhat reminiscent of Final Fantasy Tactics.

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Originally Posted by Quesse

How about just fix classes and make them meaningful.

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That would negate the purpose of jobs. Why unlock jobs when you can just use classes? You can't say "options" because most, as proven by 1.0, will go the easiest route possible.

Oh for the goodness sake of the Twelve! ... no level cap! v.v*

Classes have their use, if you don't like them then don't but I should request to lift all ability restrictions with classes so casuals w/o jobs can custom themselves when soloing. That is all!

=|

MAR's are better for soloing until they get steel cyclone so it may be difficult for someone who is leveling their WAR to reach the level that steel cyclone is available. I imagine there are other such issues for some of the other classes too so they shouldn't just get rid of the lvl for MAR past lvl 30. Plus there is no harm in keeping the system how it is? It gives us more freedom since if we want to just play as MAR and never even touch WAR, we can or if we want to pretend our character has ranked up into a WAR and never fight as MAR again, we can do so also.

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Originally Posted by Kirito

MAR's are better for soloing until they get steel cyclone so it may be difficult for someone who is leveling their WAR to reach the level that steel cyclone is available. I imagine there are other such issues for some of the other classes too so they shouldn't just get rid of the lvl for MAR past lvl 30. Plus there is no harm in keeping the system how it is? It gives us more freedom since if we want to just play as MAR and never even touch WAR, we can or if we want to pretend our character has ranked up into a WAR and never fight as MAR again, we can do so also.

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The only harm is they put themselves into a corner in how to make class/job additions. They realistically can't add a new class everytime they want to add a new job. Look at the other job based FF games, while some jobs "repeat" there's enough different about them they can actually be their own job, XI in particular. You have WHM/RDM/SCH/BLU who can all use curative spells natively but they do in their own way. Break it down you then have RDM which can use swords/daggers for meleeing, SCH which can also use Black Magic effectively and you have BLU which can use swords, monster abilities and even debuff mobs in ways no other class can, i.e attribute down, terrorize, plague, straight attack/defense/accuracy down (not as a % like bio/dia/blind) etc.

Flip it around to XIV, you have the base classes that can do what they do and pull from other classes but what's the main issue? A Gladiator will always use a Sword, a Conjurer always a wand/staff, a Thaumaturge always a scepter/staff, a lancer always a polearm, an archer always a bow, a marauder a greataxe and a pugilist always using hand-to-hand. So they'd have to introduce jobs onto them in a weird way that changes how they've always been.

Some say "change is good" but really, we know 'Red Mage', 'Scholar', 'Blue Mage', 'Dragoon' and 'Dancer' as an example for how they've always been in the Final Fantasy games. Rarely do they have radical changes to them that we can say: "Well, RDM can pull off of Gladiator!" RDM has always been a mage that could use swords, daggers and clubs, but if they pulled from GLA, they'd only have swords. They would have to introduce classes in order to properly introduce new jobs, which is why, not 100% the way the OP states it, but having the classes "capped" then job stones changing the class into that specific role would have been better, especially if it unlocks the ability to use multiple weapons.

XI has spoiled the way the FF jobs could work because you weren't limited by the only weapon, you could use many weapons but you had a specialized weapon, e.g Samurai uses Great Katana but can destroy mobs with a polearm no problem and a Warrior can use every weapon but uses Great Axes as it's specialized weapon. Hell, even Dragoon in older FF games could use Swords and can in XI as well but polearm is is their signature weapon. The only true problem with the "freedom" is you're not really free, like freedom of speech.