Depth Vs. Complexity

As a general rule, I do not create threads often (I believe this will only be my fourth) and when I do, I try to make sure they are well crafted and have a fundamental point that I am trying to make. I'm going to break that rule this once, however.

Extra Credits, a video periodical broadcast out of Penny Arcade, most recently posted a discussion about the relationship between depth and complexity in video games. As I was watching, I could not help but think about its applications in almost every debate we as a community have been having for virtually the last two years; from stat calculations to gear drop rates, from leveling rates to pacing.

Rather than rehashing everything that they said, I'll just leave this here. I am curious as to everyone's thoughts about the points they bring up as they pertain to FFXIV. In particular, the ever heated debate over stat complexity as a motivator of diversity.

I can't imagine how many insane [dev request] threads we'd be spared if all Lodestone users actually watched through each 'Extra credits' episode and learned a thing or two before making a suggestion.

Hmm.. Never thought about this really. Good thread topic, dude.

And something tells me the shot where they show the WoW UI wasn't fake. xD

depth & good design always wins.

Complexity could mean anything really.

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Originally Posted by Zantetsuken

I can't imagine how many insane [dev request] threads we'd be spared if all Lodestone users actually watched through each 'Extra credits' episode and learned a thing or two before making a suggestion.

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I like their videos but I think its easy for people to misunderstand that video (and its inherently subjective nature) - and overall it wouldn't change the outlook of the forums even if everyone saw it.

:P

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Originally Posted by Pwnagraphic

Hmm.. Never thought about this really. Good thread topic, dude.

And something tells me the shot where they show the WoW UI wasn't fake. xD

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it isnt fake :) it's UI add-ons for aggro/dps meters, showing all raid members on screen, instead of just the 6 or whatever in your subgroup. timers for boss skills, etc.

dunno how much can be added really.,.except that some 1.0 fanboys think complexity is depth :) (oh the game sux now that the gathering minigame is gone!) That was just uncesserery complexity, that didn't really add anything; Just made it all worse, cause of terrible delays.
I think good use of complexity in FFXIV is the positional effects of skills, and incapacitations.

Specifically, though, there is the line of thought prevalent in FFXI and FFXIV that complicated stats and hidden values produces more variety in play styles. A view that I myself ascribed to, to an extent. The good people at Extra Credit, however, make a compelling argument against complex stats and for a more robust, simple ruleset allowing for more versatility.

Now, that being said, I feel like what we saw at the end of 1.0 was kind of doing neither. There was a lot of good things with the stat and ability system implemented in 1.23+, but at its best, it was extremely restrictive. To use EC's parlance, it was broad of complexity, shallow of depth.

As for what could be done to change that, I think a focus on synergistic class abilities would be a good start. It lets them start off small: "Here are your abilities, and here is what they do", then grow as you grow to learn about your own person play style "If you use this BLM ability, it reduces enemy resistance to blunt WSs, so it's a good choice when partying with a MNK". Minimal extra ruleset with maximal improvement in depth.

As for stat complexity, that's a problem I'm not ready to tackle, but after some healthy discussion, perhaps we can come up with some ideas between us.

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Originally Posted by Hulan

As a general rule, I do not create threads often (I believe this will only be my fourth) and when I do, I try to make sure they are well crafted and have a fundamental point that I am trying to make. I'm going to break that rule this once, however.

Extra Credits, a video periodical broadcast out of Penny Arcade, most recently posted a discussion about the relationship between depth and complexity in video games. As I was watching, I could not help but think about its applications in almost every debate we as a community have been having for virtually the last two years; from stat calculations to gear drop rates, from leveling rates to pacing.

Rather than rehashing everything that they said, I'll just leave this here. I am curious as to everyone's thoughts about the points they bring up as they pertain to FFXIV. In particular, the ever heated debate over stat complexity as a motivator of diversity.

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I find poker games quite deep and they are very simple. That said, the variety of factors that go into MMOs requires complexity or else people will cheat.

Since I'm a little intoxicated all keep this short. What stood out of that video immediately was tutorials. FFXIV 1.0 is a complex game and the lack of tutorials caused some problems for my RL friends. One of my friends was complaining to me that they couldn't figure out how to play the game then shortly quit of frustration. Hopefully in 2.0 SE will at least add some tutorials.

I'm playing FFXIII and there are tutorials for everything, I don't get why FFXIV 1.0 didn't have tutorials.

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Originally Posted by Pseudopsia

Since I'm a little intoxicated all keep this short. What stood out of that video immediately was tutorials. FFXIV 1.0 is a complex game and the lack of tutorials caused some problems for my RL friends. One of my friends was complaining to me that they couldn't figure out how to play the game then shortly quit of frustration. Hopefully in 2.0 SE will at least add some tutorials.

I'm playing FFXIII and there are tutorials for everything, I don't get why FFXIV 1.0 didn't have tutorials.

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Ya in 1.0 beta i was quite frustrated, cause everything was so confusing.
i heard some guy say his GF tried ARR alpha, and she found it easy to play; and she's not a gamer. Seems easy enough to get into if you ask me :)

I dislike complexity.. Nothing should be complex.. Complexity usually arises due to the lack of foresight..
Just need to think up intuitive interfaces that speak for themselves. Not ones people look at and grimace in confusion.
Depth I like.. Skill trees and possibilities, to not be the same as everyone else.
I'm sure we are thinking about the word complexity differently.

Complexity to me was like the map of yohator/yutunga jungle in ffxi.. "Did I spell it right?" lol..
It hardly made sense and could of/ should of been made in a way that was more readable.
No need to leave people in confusion about something as basic as a map.

Now if you want to talk complexity like jumping, climbing, flying even.. I like that.. Complexity in coding if executed properly, makes a world feel like a world.
Interactivity is huge now a days and just running from A to B doesn't cut it anymore..
If A day comes where the gameplay for FF is like the Custscenes for FF..
I will die a happy man..

Just stay with me here a sec, because it is all possible.. Look at games like Just Cause.. SE made it..
They know how to make a world interactive and they are adding some nice things into ffxiv..
But look at the old intro CS fighting the Marlboro.
If we could jump off trees and into the air..
Physically grab and move a friend out of the way of a blast of poisonous breath, that would of killed them.
Really react dynamically with the environment and people..
That would be something else..

Too scared to fight that Marlboro? Go run and hide up that tree...lol..
Don't feel like being food for some land dwelling monster?
Jump in the water and hope nothing bigger is there..
Possibilities that lead to possibilities..
I like that kind of complexity.

You can't really do complex in a video game. All it really turns out to be is time consuming. Original crafting in FF14 was 'complex' and it was a royal pain to do.

Once you know how to do something, it's more about repeat and rinse, determine the fastest way from point A to point B and in the case of FF14, manage inventory. Anything mechanics try and do to diversify that ends up being convoluted and a time sink.

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Originally Posted by Ksenia

You can't really do complex in a video game. All it really turns out to be is time consuming. Original crafting in FF14 was 'complex' and it was a royal pain to do.

Once you know how to do something, it's more about repeat and rinse, determine the fastest way from point A to point B and in the case of FF14, manage inventory. Anything mechanics try and do to diversify that ends up being convoluted and a time sink.

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Complexity is fine its more of the elegance of the design (and ensuring you arent doing something that less could do better).

The massive amounts of resources needed to make items could have worked but they didnt design the whole system to flow with those requirements - like the inventory management, recipe management, the power from craft, number of times making the same craft.

I think that's the danger of this video is some people will be convinced complexity is inherently evil and it is most certainly not. (Not that it is inherently good either, you have to deliver it efficiently and elegantly, which is why they spent time talking about tutorials and making sure you are getting your "depths worth")

I think it's a matter of opinion really. I would rate Dota2 into the complexity side of games. Not everyone will like this kind of game and even after 1000 hours of playtime, some are still figuring out what happened. I personally think a balance between both is possible though.

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Originally Posted by Hulan

Specifically, though, there is the line of thought prevalent in FFXI and FFXIV that complicated stats and hidden values produces more variety in play styles. A view that I myself ascribed to, to an extent. The good people at Extra Credit, however, make a compelling argument against complex stats and for a more robust, simple ruleset allowing for more versatility.

Now, that being said, I feel like what we saw at the end of 1.0 was kind of doing neither. There was a lot of good things with the stat and ability system implemented in 1.23+, but at its best, it was extremely restrictive. To use EC's parlance, it was broad of complexity, shallow of depth.

As for what could be done to change that, I think a focus on synergistic class abilities would be a good start. It lets them start off small: "Here are your abilities, and here is what they do", then grow as you grow to learn about your own person play style "If you use this BLM ability, it reduces enemy resistance to blunt WSs, so it's a good choice when partying with a MNK". Minimal extra ruleset with maximal improvement in depth.

As for stat complexity, that's a problem I'm not ready to tackle, but after some healthy discussion, perhaps we can come up with some ideas between us.

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The problem I find with the result of the "more robust, simple ruleset with more versatility" style is that it provides identical results in different colors. There can be large variance within the same dps, but it will consistently exist because of what is essentially imbalance, a relatively simple set of divisions in which bonuses do not all carry over into each category. If your Haste affects everything, your power stats affect everything, cooldown-reducing stats affect everything, so on and so forth, the same result--be it dps, burst potential, burn potential, buff coverage, buff max, debuff coverage, debuff max, or anything else--can be achieved through any of these stats.

The only depth that can be accomplished with stats requires almost equal complexity. This again has to do with the fact that some centers of your outputs/attacks/actions will be stat-fluid, and some will be largely rigid. This allows you to revolve your strategy, both in preparation and in sequence and reflex, around the rigid components. Regardless though, this will manifest in contingencies and tactics (when the contingencies are too numerous to be individually memorized), which are essentially complexity. It's the guesswork in the moment that will feel like depth, along with the matching to gear-sourced stat opportunities (hitting a new plateau on a certain set of abilities, which then opens new strategic windows, and further options therefrom) and new or favored abilities. This can still be fun; my only point is that is highly complexity-led. (I personally enjoy computational intensity and long learning curves--complexity--as long as they can be used fulfillingly all the way to true mastery.)

I'm sure there are more fluid ways to realize the whole of the 'stat' concept within MMOs, but I do believe what I said above will apply to any of its usual solid variable (sorry for that contradiction, I only mean it in comparison to a form/category-shifting variable) setups.

I would agree that a synergistic take on our abilities (especially with little to no direction for their uses outside of basic mechanics, i.e. the blunt damage bonus being as close as you get to saying 'helps with Pugilist partnerships') would be a great help and an easy addition to the game.

And all this really makes me wonder just how awesome Arcanists could be with a modified (a bit more complexity added, and a hundredfold the depth) spell system...

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Originally Posted by Ksenia

You can't really do complex in a video game. All it really turns out to be is time consuming. Original crafting in FF14 was 'complex' and it was a royal pain to do.

Once you know how to do something, it's more about repeat and rinse, determine the fastest way from point A to point B and in the case of FF14, manage inventory. Anything mechanics try and do to diversify that ends up being convoluted and a time sink.

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You can definitely do complexity in a video game. For one, it just as easily can start with having more to the game than moving from point A to point B. In fact, it can start such that moving from point A to point B are a means to those ends, rather that the complexity simply categorizing various means to accomplish that same goal. After all, no part of the means of a game should be, itself, a goal for addition. You move from point A to point B for exploration, pursuit, so forth. Any complexity should be part of doing the same, and altogether wrap the child elements of its mechanics together into a elegant and fluid whole that gives the non-visual aesthetics of the game.

Think of it as a language vastly different from one's native tongue. It may seem like a waste of time to learn more than the practical translations of key phrases, but then the language as a whole is wasted.

I can't say that this is the norm for how complexity's been used in game design, but it is at least an ideal, and is 'possible'.
Less in theory:
I wouldn't call 1.0 crafting a matter of 'complex' so much as 'poor design'. Items of code were used without any underlying mechanics (which would actually be an addition of "complexity"), and without that they could only be tacked into rigid lists. While the result may seem 'complex' in that it required memorization, a high-depth rendition of the crafting system would have greater complexity on the developer's part and likely require greater complexity in terms of actual understanding of the sub-mechanics, without the rigidity or frustration of the original crafting system and all the ingenuity, exploration, and theory-crafting of an enjoyably deep experience.

Depth in a game is almost always good. I cannot think of any examples of when it is bad.

Complexity can be good or really really really bad. Depending on its implementation.

If it is complex for the sake of being complex and it is not needed. Such as the original party invite system in XIV 1.0 yea not good. (never seen an issues with 2nd one they added... was simple to use just no one used it)

If something is complex such a boss fight where you have to juggle many things at once, the fight becomes very complex and mentally draining. This can actually be a good thing if done right.

Over simplicity often leads to real boredom.

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Originally Posted by trep

I think it's a matter of opinion really. I would rate Dota2 into the complexity side of games. Not everyone will like this kind of game and even after 1000 hours of playtime, some are still figuring out what happened. I personally think a balance between both is possible though.

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In Dota 2's case it's a matter of an enjoyable level of depth for each character, but each character's depth is subject to the depth of every single other character. It's like playing a nuanced Rock-Paper-Scissors in the 81st factorial. Normally a learning curve would be enough, but since the premise of the game is that massive number of characters available to play both as and against from the get-go, that's nearly impossible. It drops you into the height of it in your very first match.

Oddly enough, FPS's do the same, but (luckily?) people don't realize just how much complexity (more in terms of rules of thumb more than actual coded rules of the game, though the latter can be numerous too) many of them can have, and the self-led learning usually works itself into an enjoyable pace. MMOs with an emphasis on long-depth sub-mechanics, a free pace and a large open world tend to do the same.

I love Extra Credits but let's think about this logically. There is literally NO WAY to create a giant world with dozens of different things to do without SOME amount of complexity.
Complexity isn't bad, it's just important to keep it at a reasonable rate to the depth gained from it.

Let's take chess as an example. The (basic) rules are easy to learn for everyone.
Sure, there are dozens of supercomplicated things about it if you REALLY get into it but let's not go there.
Basic rules for basic play are easy to learn. But!
What you can do is also very restricted. You are bound to a small chess board with nothing to do but to beat your opponent or get beaten.
With modern MMORPGs there is so incredibly much to do that it's simply not possible to keep the complexity at a level as low as basic chess rules.

And it doesn't need to be. As said in the video, the amount of time the player has to embrace that complexity is what matters.
I think FFXIV does actually a good job at that by now; it slowly spreads out new concepts over the first few hours-days of playing. Also, it's very forgiving with trial & error.
You can mess around with different options, new systems, etc. as much as you want without getting penaltized for it.
You can always change your playstyle, your equipment, your skillset or your stats throughout the game.
Normally the rate at which you grow is equal to the rate new complexity is dumped on you so you can enjoy the depth 'unlocked' by bearing more complexity.

Let's take new skills as a example. Originally there were just SO many skills (like 40 per class) that the complexity was overwhelming. Knowing all their symbols, which to combine, which are useful in which situation etc. required a great deal of "memory" or "thinking" of the player. Getting ~2 new skills per level also left the player with no time to actually figure out these things, it just kept piling up.
Sure, if you knew all your skills and their effectiveness against XY, you had a great deal of strategies to choose from - which could beasically be refered to as 'depth', but the high complexity also confused most players a lot and made it an overall not really enjoyable experience.
Since the battle system revamp, the amount of different tactics got a little bit smaller, but only by a margin.
Having only 16(?) skills per class in comparison to 40 or 50 made it A LOT easier for players though; less symbols to remember, one new skill every 4 levels (enough time to get used to it), it all decreases the strain on the player a lot, basically reducing complexity by far without taking away from the depth too much.
That's exactly what EC was talking about - less complexity, more depth.

Concerning that, FFXIV has come a great way from the mess it once was to what it is now.
Sure, it' still far from perfect, but what I've seen about ARR so far seems to go into the right direction (no alpha invite though so no hands-on experience I could judge from).
Now about hidden stats & Co., I'm not gonna go into that.
Most people don't care anyways and those who do actually seem to enjoy sitting at their desks with complicated formula for hours upon hours to figure things out.
So basically, it probably has it's place in the game..somewhere.. :rolleyes:

TL;DR
FFXIV once was incredibly complex for the relatively small depth gained from it, which changed considerably to present day and seems to get even better looking at ARR.
Having SOME complexity for a game is fine, as long as the learning curve is enjoyable :)