Depth Vs. Complexity

[Hulan]

As a general rule, I do not create threads often (I believe this will only be my fourth) and when I do, I try to make sure they are well crafted and have a fundamental point that I am trying to make. I'm going to break that rule this once, however.

Extra Credits, a video periodical broadcast out of Penny Arcade, most recently posted a discussion about the relationship between depth and complexity in video games. As I was watching, I could not help but think about its applications in almost every debate we as a community have been having for virtually the last two years; from stat calculations to gear drop rates, from leveling rates to pacing.

Rather than rehashing everything that they said, I'll just leave this here. I am curious as to everyone's thoughts about the points they bring up as they pertain to FFXIV. In particular, the ever heated debate over stat complexity as a motivator of diversity.

[Zantetsuken]

I can't imagine how many insane [dev request] threads we'd be spared if all Lodestone users actually watched through each 'Extra credits' episode and learned a thing or two before making a suggestion.

[Shougun]

I can't imagine how many insane [dev request] threads we'd be spared if all Lodestone users actually watched through each 'Extra credits' episode and learned a thing or two before making a suggestion.

I like their videos but I think its easy for people to misunderstand that video (and its inherently subjective nature) - and overall it wouldn't change the outlook of the forums even if everyone saw it.

:P

[Pwnagraphic]

Hmm.. Never thought about this really. Good thread topic, dude.

And something tells me the shot where they show the WoW UI wasn't fake. xD

[Radacci]

Hmm.. Never thought about this really. Good thread topic, dude.

And something tells me the shot where they show the WoW UI wasn't fake. xD

it isnt fake it's UI add-ons for aggro/dps meters, showing all raid members on screen, instead of just the 6 or whatever in your subgroup. timers for boss skills, etc.

dunno how much can be added really.,.except that some 1.0 fanboys think complexity is depth (oh the game sux now that the gathering minigame is gone!) That was just uncesserery complexity, that didn't really add anything; Just made it all worse, cause of terrible delays.
I think good use of complexity in FFXIV is the positional effects of skills, and incapacitations.

[indira]

depth & good design always wins.

Complexity could mean anything really.

[Hulan]

Specifically, though, there is the line of thought prevalent in FFXI and FFXIV that complicated stats and hidden values produces more variety in play styles. A view that I myself ascribed to, to an extent. The good people at Extra Credit, however, make a compelling argument against complex stats and for a more robust, simple ruleset allowing for more versatility.

Now, that being said, I feel like what we saw at the end of 1.0 was kind of doing neither. There was a lot of good things with the stat and ability system implemented in 1.23+, but at its best, it was extremely restrictive. To use EC's parlance, it was broad of complexity, shallow of depth.

As for what could be done to change that, I think a focus on synergistic class abilities would be a good start. It lets them start off small: "Here are your abilities, and here is what they do", then grow as you grow to learn about your own person play style "If you use this BLM ability, it reduces enemy resistance to blunt WSs, so it's a good choice when partying with a MNK". Minimal extra ruleset with maximal improvement in depth.

As for stat complexity, that's a problem I'm not ready to tackle, but after some healthy discussion, perhaps we can come up with some ideas between us.

[Shurrikhan]

Specifically, though, there is the line of thought prevalent in FFXI and FFXIV that complicated stats and hidden values produces more variety in play styles. A view that I myself ascribed to, to an extent. The good people at Extra Credit, however, make a compelling argument against complex stats and for a more robust, simple ruleset allowing for more versatility.

Now, that being said, I feel like what we saw at the end of 1.0 was kind of doing neither. There was a lot of good things with the stat and ability system implemented in 1.23+, but at its best, it was extremely restrictive. To use EC's parlance, it was broad of complexity, shallow of depth.

As for what could be done to change that, I think a focus on synergistic class abilities would be a good start. It lets them start off small: "Here are your abilities, and here is what they do", then grow as you grow to learn about your own person play style "If you use this BLM ability, it reduces enemy resistance to blunt WSs, so it's a good choice when partying with a MNK". Minimal extra ruleset with maximal improvement in depth.

As for stat complexity, that's a problem I'm not ready to tackle, but after some healthy discussion, perhaps we can come up with some ideas between us.

The problem I find with the result of the "more robust, simple ruleset with more versatility" style is that it provides identical results in different colors. There can be large variance within the same dps, but it will consistently exist because of what is essentially imbalance, a relatively simple set of divisions in which bonuses do not all carry over into each category. If your Haste affects everything, your power stats affect everything, cooldown-reducing stats affect everything, so on and so forth, the same result--be it dps, burst potential, burn potential, buff coverage, buff max, debuff coverage, debuff max, or anything else--can be achieved through any of these stats.

The only depth that can be accomplished with stats requires almost equal complexity. This again has to do with the fact that some centers of your outputs/attacks/actions will be stat-fluid, and some will be largely rigid. This allows you to revolve your strategy, both in preparation and in sequence and reflex, around the rigid components. Regardless though, this will manifest in contingencies and tactics (when the contingencies are too numerous to be individually memorized), which are essentially complexity. It's the guesswork in the moment that will feel like depth, along with the matching to gear-sourced stat opportunities (hitting a new plateau on a certain set of abilities, which then opens new strategic windows, and further options therefrom) and new or favored abilities. This can still be fun; my only point is that is highly complexity-led. (I personally enjoy computational intensity and long learning curves--complexity--as long as they can be used fulfillingly all the way to true mastery.)

I'm sure there are more fluid ways to realize the whole of the 'stat' concept within MMOs, but I do believe what I said above will apply to any of its usual solid variable (sorry for that contradiction, I only mean it in comparison to a form/category-shifting variable) setups.

I would agree that a synergistic take on our abilities (especially with little to no direction for their uses outside of basic mechanics, i.e. the blunt damage bonus being as close as you get to saying 'helps with Pugilist partnerships') would be a great help and an easy addition to the game.

And all this really makes me wonder just how awesome Arcanists could be with a modified (a bit more complexity added, and a hundredfold the depth) spell system...

[HiirNoivl]

As a general rule, I do not create threads often (I believe this will only be my fourth) and when I do, I try to make sure they are well crafted and have a fundamental point that I am trying to make. I'm going to break that rule this once, however.

Extra Credits, a video periodical broadcast out of Penny Arcade, most recently posted a discussion about the relationship between depth and complexity in video games. As I was watching, I could not help but think about its applications in almost every debate we as a community have been having for virtually the last two years; from stat calculations to gear drop rates, from leveling rates to pacing.

Rather than rehashing everything that they said, I'll just leave this here. I am curious as to everyone's thoughts about the points they bring up as they pertain to FFXIV. In particular, the ever heated debate over stat complexity as a motivator of diversity.

I find poker games quite deep and they are very simple. That said, the variety of factors that go into MMOs requires complexity or else people will cheat.

[Pseudopsia]

Since I'm a little intoxicated all keep this short. What stood out of that video immediately was tutorials. FFXIV 1.0 is a complex game and the lack of tutorials caused some problems for my RL friends. One of my friends was complaining to me that they couldn't figure out how to play the game then shortly quit of frustration. Hopefully in 2.0 SE will at least add some tutorials.

I'm playing FFXIII and there are tutorials for everything, I don't get why FFXIV 1.0 didn't have tutorials.