Beware because there's a bit of a dense thread ahead.
I know this may be a little off-topic, but still it affects FFXIV and us as the user base and as feedback givers. (Also, I don't know if this affects Japanese players, but they should take note too, if it was possible).
We have to use the language correctly (and I know many of us don't have English as our mother language), but still, we need to take care, because our opinion as consumers shapes how the video game market is, and specially in ARR as SE is making a huge effort to show us that they care about our opinion, so we need to express ourselves correctly!
I'll address the two main aspects that usually get confused and that are really important to express correctly.
The first one is fun.
Just think about it, how many times you express you are having fun when in truth you mean you are engaged? It's a common mistake because usually fun games (or media), are really engaging, but the opposite is not true, as not every engaging experience is necessarily fun. For example horror games, light novels or detective games. The main point of those games are not being fun, but they engage because they tie to other feelings of the players, as fear, lust or curiosity.
So the point is, if we ask the games to be fun, the developers will try to deliver fun experiences, but in truth, that can hurt certain games, and I think a game as big as a MMO, doesn't need to be "fun" like, for example, Super Smash Bros is when played with friends. Both are a social experience, but where the engagement comes from is different in both cases.
I don't want a fun game, and I bet you don't either. What we really want is an engaging experience that ties us for years to come to the game and to Hydaelyn. An experience that awakens feelings in us like The End of an Era trailer did, the element of discovery and exploration only a MMO can offer, the fear of entering a dark and unknown instance, the fun of having Chocobo racing, and a engaging and tactical combat system that allows depth and growth to my character in game and me as a player.
The second one is graphics.
Graphics refer to the techniques used to deliver the element on screen of a game. Things as the polygon number of the models, lightning algorithms, better physics and so on, and sure, we always want better graphics and we want to shout "TECHNOLOGY!" amazed of what games can do now days, but in truth, as gamers, what we want is having games with unique and coherent aesthetics. I think Square has always done a really excellent job on both aspects, delivering top aesthetics while innovating in the technology behind, but, it's really bad when a game developer focus too much in delivering "better graphics", and ending providing poor, bland and boring aesthetics (brown and bloom).
There are more, but those are the two main concerns I have, because what we ask may be not what we really want, so we have to know how to ask correctly and express what we really want, so the developers can make the games we want to play and pay for. And this is specially important when giving feedback of the alpha or beta versions, because Yoshi and the team won't understand the same concern if we ask for a "fun quest system" than a "engaging quest system", just to mention an example of recent arguments started by the 5th alpha video.
Thanks for staying with me until the end!
I got some inspiration for the thread and ideas from Exta Credits, and even though I don't always agree with what they say, I think they are doing a great job trying to make people understand that games can be much more as a media. So I recommend to watch their episodes to anyone that want to dive a bit more into this hobby.
http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode...vs.-aesthetics
http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/beyond-fun
Engaging != Fun and Aesthetics != Graphics
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12-09-2012, 01:15 AMDannythmEngaging != Fun and Aesthetics != Graphics
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12-09-2012, 01:22 AMForgo
I want a fun game with good graphics and a good storyline, and i'm sure ARR will be just that...
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12-09-2012, 01:23 AMGramul
They're more like a glaze for the whole experience turkey really.
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12-09-2012, 01:25 AMKiriA500http://imagemacros.files.wordpress.c..._you.jpg?w=720Quote:
Originally Posted by Forgo
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12-09-2012, 01:27 AMForgoO.O! I was..being....yeah...Quote:
Originally Posted by KiriA500
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12-09-2012, 01:32 AMShougun
Aestheics will probably be mastered in beta like 1.0 was (all the color themes and systematic styling done fixed and touched up by lighting and shaders).
Imo. Graphics needs work, if you watch those videos you can see low textured objects and horrible poly'd stuff- mostly flora but you can also notice it in other objects that are supposed to be round (natural shapes) and are really kind of like dodecagons or worse. (You can argue that these problems where in 1.0 too though :D - nothing I blame on Yoshida, just something I'd like to see improve which will help him take that best graphics mmo goal he talked about)
Engaging is really hard to judge fully until we can see some end game content - we know the alpha is only up to level 20, so those people cant experience the higher harder end content and we know the videos have been on low level areas. -
12-09-2012, 01:43 AMAenarion
I think the OP is a bit hung up on the semantics, often times (especially in MMO), when people uses the term "fun", it's usually to describe things they find "enjoyable" to do, whether said activity is actually fun or or not.
ie. Fishing (or gathering in general) in 1.0 is hardly something that would be considered "fun", but I know quite a few people who find the experience enjoyable.
the PA vid on the fun thing is aimed more towards traditional genres rather than MMOs I think. -
12-09-2012, 02:24 AMDannythmYep, and semantics are important, whoever tells you the contrary is trying to trick you into something or just uneducated.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aenarion
Enjoyment and engaging are closer but still not the same thing, though I agree that the confusion usually is between fun and enjoyment, the difference should still be made.
Also I want to point out that as there are tastes for everyone, someone can find some activity fun, even if it's not designed with that purpose, as well as you can dance any music even if it's not thought for dance.
The game design should be enjoyable, but most of all should be engaging, as I repeat, playing to overcome fear in a horror game is not fun nor enjoyable (taking into account what I said in the preceding paragraph), but it's engaging. -
12-09-2012, 03:14 AMDeli
I think engaging ~= fun ~= graphics
we are all visual animals, so visually pleasure is hard to avoid and deniable.
I think something, especially so much games out there, can make you engage to it. it means some certain degree of successful. unless...you knock ff14 up by accident...
oh that's off-topic...
The rest is personal opinion and preference. Judging other ppl's fun according to personal preference is not appropriated.
If you decided to be engaged with this game out of million games & fun stuffs out there, it means this game is more fun than others... even though lots time it's a game of eliminate the worst not choose who's better, like the election...
and you know...no baby, no problem. door is over there people can walk out there.
For me personally I think ff14 is super fun, in terms of battle style, graphics, music and story line, I see other games as inferiors. that's why I engaged to it. Even though I cheated to GW2 D3 sometimes, but I always muttering "inferiors" when I see the graphics, music, story lines... -
12-09-2012, 09:46 AMDannythmHave you read all I wrote or just the title? Your post makes me wonder...Quote:
Originally Posted by Deli
Because I think you find FFXIV more enjoyable and engaging than fun, from what you say in your post.
And I wasn't making a distinction between engaging and graphics, but between fun and engaging, and graphics and aesthetics, and what we all want is an engaging combat system, with an engaging progression, with an engaging aesthetics, from the visuals to the sounds and text and overall environment of the game. -
12-09-2012, 08:58 PMNiqote
This may be my opinion only... but the best example I can think for in game (1.0) is that;
Darnus was fun,
Raven nevermore was fun and engaging,
Relic was engaging...relic sure as hell was not fun... -
12-09-2012, 10:20 PMAbriael
People "confuse" those elements all the time because they're deeply interlinked and interdependent. I honestly don't think wannabe English professors to stand on a soapbox and create whole threads tell us what is what, and even more so I'm quite sure Yoshida & Co are experienced enough to read through feedback with a grain of salt.