Who was really behind the Dalamud project? (Theory thread)

Hey forum. This is my theory I'm looking to get some input on. Tell me if you think it makes sense, if it's the most ridiculous thing you've ever heard, or TL;DR, I don't mind. :D I'm just having some fun with this while I wait for ARR!

So in the trailer, we saw that the Twelve's seal failed. But how could this be? They are supposed to be Gods! If all twelve of them include their powers, then surely they could defeat Bahamut, even if he does possess both Ifrit and Garuda's strength as well. But what if not all of the Twelve actually granted their power to the seal? Just because they're Gods doesn't necessarily mean all twelve of them have pure intentions. I'll get back to this in a moment.

Many have noticed that Louisoux, an Archon, seems to represent Thaliak the Scholar. Louisoux, as well as the other Archons, also seems to know a lot about the past Umbral Eras. Is this simply because they studied them, or is it possible that they were there to actually witness and influence them? Considering the Sixth Umbral Era was said to take place 1,500 years before the game's time, that would be no small feat. However, if they are in fact Gods, then living for such a length of time would be plausible.

In the quest 'Of Archons and Muses', Tyago Moui says this:

'Caught wind of all this Archon talk yet? Some folk make them for the very incarnations of the Twelve, come to Eorzea. Old prophecies and wives' tales say they descend from their heavenly seat whenever disaster threatens Eorzea, see.
Needless to say, many believe the Archons to have otherworldly powers - both of mind and body.'

So, though there is nothing conclusive here, we at least know that there are rumours about the Archons being incarnations of the Twelve. It is difficult to make many connections between the Archons and the Gods -- for example, Thancred is a Bard who uses knives. The closest I could link him to was Oschon, who is depicted as a carefree ranger wielding a bow. This, of course, is pretty far off from Thancred's character, however for now let us assume that these depictions are in some way incorrect, or that the Archons are attempting to hide the obvious connections.

To me, Rhalgr is the most interesting of the Twelve because of his title and symbol. He is known as the 'Breaker of Worlds' and God of Destruction. His symbol is the streaking meteor. Reminding you of Dalamud at all? At first I wondered if perhaps Darnus was Rhalgr's incarnation. He certainly wanted to cause destruction and break worlds, and was the one to order the meteor project. He is not seen without his armor on, so it is possible he also has the Archon tattoo.

However, again from the quest 'Of Archons and Muses', Tyago Moui tells us this:

'They say Ahldbhar was the mightiest of the twelve Archons. Rhalgr the Destroyer himself, taken form in Roegadyn flesh - a bloody mountain of a man, and a fearsome warrior'

Though I suppose it's possible that Darnus was a Roegadyn under that armor, and changed his name to avoid the Rhalgr connection, I think it's a lot more likely that he was actually serving Ahldbhar. Maybe Darnus didn't come up with the Dalamud project, and was just helping Ahldbhar to make it happen.

But why would one of the Twelve want to cause such destruction and death? In the game we are lead to believe that they all protect us. But, once again, we learn yet more interesting information from Tyago Moui:

'Ahldbhar fought relentlessly against a clan of wicked sorcerers that sought only to wreak havoc on the world through their dark powers. But then, something happened… Something that threw Ahldbhar into deep despair. And in the end, he turned and took up with the enemy, though none can say as to why.
What came of him after his betrayal? Well, I confess I haven't heard the end of the tale myself.'

So, what might this mean? It's possible that the 'wicked sorcerers seeking to wreak havoc' may have been those of Garlemald. Rhalgr was the Guardian of Ala Mhigo, so it makes sense that he could have been fighting relentlessly to defend them. Perhaps when Ala Mhigo was defeated, this is what threw him into despair. Or, perhaps he had already taken up with the enemy, and encouraged them to attack Ala Mhigo. It's not clear what could have happened or why, but I think this quest gives us a lot of interesting information, and some points to ponder.

And, let us not forget this line from the Seventh Verse of The Divine Chronicles: 'Divine order roils, fallen corpses writhe.' Divine order roils? Could this imply that somehow, the order between the Twelve was disrupted?

Perhaps this is why the seal could have failed -- it is possible that without all twelve, the spell could not be completed or strong enough to defeat Bahamut. What do you folks think? Could Rhalgr be the real foe?

I don't mean to throw a wrench in there, but Rhalgr's sign was present during the sealing spell. In fact, each of the giant blue spikes that attempted to hold Bahamut had their respective symbols on the top of them, and if I can pause it right again, you can see a Meteor, Rhalgr's symbol, at the top of one of the spikes.

His power was indeed present, and I think Bahamut was just too powerful.

You are correct Alerith, you can clearly see his symbol if you pause just before the seal breaks. I guess I just don't like the concept that Bahamut could be stronger than the Twelve, so I wonder if perhaps simply his symbol being shown doesn't necessarily mean he was lending his power to it. I mean, it all seems like a strange coincidence -- his meteor symbol, titles, and the information given in the Of Archons and Muses quest.

Thanks for your input!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Boxworm

You are correct Alerith, you can clearly see his symbol if you pause just before the seal breaks. I guess I just don't like the concept that Bahamut could be stronger than the Twelve, so I wonder if perhaps simply his symbol being shown doesn't necessarily mean he was lending his power to it. I mean, it all seems like a strange coincidence -- his meteor symbol, titles, and the information given in the Of Archons and Muses quest.

Thanks for your input!

---

I certainly understand where you are coming from, but let's just wait to see what place Bahamut actually holds in the XIV universe.

There are numerous things that could have happened, from absorbing enough Aether to at least break free to being a God-like being himself.

Bahamut been inside dalamud for how many years? i don't he most more powerful then he was when he was first seals. Dalamud is made of energy even darnus use this energy in the final fight and then his body went to dalamud.

I say that the Twelve are just that as powerful at that time when bahamut got free or bahamut is way more powerful now then he was.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Boxworm

You are correct Alerith, you can clearly see his symbol if you pause just before the seal breaks. I guess I just don't like the concept that Bahamut could be stronger than the Twelve, so I wonder if perhaps simply his symbol being shown doesn't necessarily mean he was lending his power to it. I mean, it all seems like a strange coincidence -- his meteor symbol, titles, and the information given in the Of Archons and Muses quest.

Thanks for your input!

---

The summon a god to the real world like ifrit or even the twelve it take energy from the world. Also the Twelve could be gods but they could always be something that would be stronger bahamut was piss being seal up that long and all that energy he got because of darnus even his body went to dalamud so it save to say the twelve is just not strong enough to seal bahamut back up at this time.

I think people are making too much of the Twelve's failure and that this means Bahamut is stronger than the gods. In the end, it wasn't the Twelve, it was a mortal (I guess depending on your view of Archobs, this is debatable) who attempted to use the power of the Twelve, not the gods themselves doing it. Even Louisoix knew there was a chance it might fail, and that's why he had the last resort of making everyone disappear.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kimoi

I think people are making too much of the Twelve's failure and that this means Bahamut is stronger than the gods. In the end, it wasn't the Twelve, it was a mortal (I guess depending on your view of Archobs, this is debatable) who attempted to use the power of the Twelve, not the gods themselves doing it. Even Louisoix knew there was a chance it might fail, and that's why he had the last resort of making everyone disappear.

---

I'm actually gonna pull an example from Yugioh of all things...

In the Dawn of the Duel story arc, the ultimate darkness named Zorc is basically tearing shit up. So, Shimon summons Exodia, a deity so strong, it had to be sealed away, blah blah exposition. Anyways, Exodia was equal in power to Zorc, but because it drew it's power from a mortal, Exodia's power eventually waned to the point of being destroyed. Similar situation here as Kimoi said.

My own personal theory is that the Tweleve were never summoned and couldn't use their full power. If you watch the sealing spell, the spikes are holding Bahamut in place, and the symbols of the Twelve are rising from the ground, in what I believe is a symbol of them awakening or being summoned.

Bahamut broke free of his binds before the summoning could be completed. So it's not that the power of the Twelve was less than Bahamut's, but more the fact that they didn't even get a chance to use their power.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Boxworm

You are correct Alerith, you can clearly see his symbol if you pause just before the seal breaks. I guess I just don't like the concept that Bahamut could be stronger than the Twelve, so I wonder if perhaps simply his symbol being shown doesn't necessarily mean he was lending his power to it. I mean, it all seems like a strange coincidence -- his meteor symbol, titles, and the information given in the Of Archons and Muses quest.

Thanks for your input!

---

We also don't know the circumstances behind the original sealing of Bahamut. The Allagans may have worn him down first before attempting the seal. This time we simply tried to seal him right off the bat. Most stories involving sealing immense power away in general would point to this being the wrong way to go about it.

Bahamut is likely far more powerful than the summoning of the Twelve at his peak. However we're also not aware that the gods themselves were actually present. They were likely just being drawn upon, which means they are not out in full force. Were they to actually directly intervene perhaps they could have won over Bahamut.

Too many things we don't know to say for 100% certain why it didn't work.

Dont forget about that key thing that fell to the ground maybe its an artifact that weakens bahamut, or the actual lock sealing up the power. :/ just a thought

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kimoi

I think people are making too much of the Twelve's failure and that this means Bahamut is stronger than the gods. In the end, it wasn't the Twelve, it was a mortal (I guess depending on your view of Archobs, this is debatable) who attempted to use the power of the Twelve, not the gods themselves doing it. Even Louisoix knew there was a chance it might fail, and that's why he had the last resort of making everyone disappear.

---

Don't think the twelve could even be summon to the real world look at what ifrit said in a CS that we smell of a primal and he could not know which one. For all we know the twelve may not even be real gods they could just be primals if so then that the reason why they was not strong enough to seal up bahamut he was just to strong this time. It would take to much of the world life to seal him up again.

I think bahamut is a elder primal maybe just like the twelve but sadly they was not strong enough with bahamut been at rest sucking up power when darnus start doing his plan and we don't know if he been getting power when he was up there also.

Keep in mind that Louisoux himself mentions that the land is wounded, and summoning the gods to Eorzea would take all of the lands remaining Aether. Thancred also says the same thing, mentioning that it was funny how the one thing that could potentially save Eorzea would also bring about doom in it's own way.

As Louisoux attempts the ritual, there simply isn't enough aether to contain Bahamut.

If I remember correctly, Darnus had not only planned on siphoning off the primals power to Bahamut, but also that of Eorzea itself. They were draining crystals and the like to achieve these ends.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Endemerrin

Keep in mind that Louisoux himself mentions that the land is wounded, and summoning the gods to Eorzea would take all of the lands remaining Aether. Thancred also says the same thing, mentioning that it was funny how the one thing that could potentially save Eorzea would also bring about doom in it's own way.

As Louisoux attempts the ritual, there simply isn't enough aether to contain Bahamut.

If I remember correctly, Darnus had not only planned on siphoning off the primals power to Bahamut, but also that of Eorzea itself. They were draining crystals and the like to achieve these ends.

---

I think we need to find out where Atomos came in. Perhaps he cock blocked the gods powers by eating teh nummies.

Aether = Mako = Gaia energy right? Could be an epic noob moment here for me.. lol

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Endemerrin

Keep in mind that Louisoux himself mentions that the land is wounded, and summoning the gods to Eorzea would take all of the lands remaining Aether.

---

This post really makes sense to me. Being a Gridanian, I especially got the message of the Twelve being present within the land. Thank you, I had not thought it this way.

I blame that juggling taru in uldah

The impending apocalypse and juggling stuff without a care in the world

Suspicious <.<

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Naoki_Yoshida

- There are Gods for each group (Beast Tribes' Gods are Primals, Man's Gods are The Twelve)

---

I think this actually helps give us a better insight on what is going on. The Twelve may be OUR gods, but they aren't THE gods that all races bow to.

This could imply that Bahamut is the Primal God and is the supreme deity of the Primals/Beastmen.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alerith

I think this actually helps give us a better insight on what is going on. The Twelve may be OUR gods, but they aren't THE gods that all races bow to.

This could imply that Bahamut is the Primal God and is the supreme deity of the Primals/Beastmen.

---

He mentioned the dragon race - which was beastmen ishy, but we also know Yoshida wanted to create a playable dragon race... relation? Children of Bahamut race.. I want to see some concept art XD

Just a thought: Large concentrations of aether exist in Dalamud, causing the orange-red hue.

Perhaps Darnus realized that aether seeks a balance in Hedalyn, and even with the lunar transmitter destroyed, Dalamud would at that point be close enough to be pulled like a magnet to the region lacking so much aether.

Reminds me of how Lifestream in FFVII gathered to heal planetary wounds, as if the world itself were alive.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Duuude007

Just a thought: Large concentrations of aether exist in Dalamud, causing the orange-red hue.

Perhaps Darnus realized that aether seeks a balance in Hedalyn, and even with the lunar transmitter destroyed, Dalamud would at that point be close enough to be pulled like a magnet to the region lacking so much aether.

Reminds me of how Lifestream in FFVII gathered to heal planetary wounds, as if the world itself were alive.

---

OR.....

Gravity. >.>

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alerith

OR.....

Gravity. >.>

---

Louisiox was shocked after defeating Darnus that it continued its descent, and mulled over what could be causing this. Per the opening transcript of the quest "Living on a Prayer".

He of all people should be smart enough to consider how much of a factor gravity might be... lol

In another thread, I posted this...

"My head spins with questions and honestly I can't tell anymore what I read in game quests, read around about the game's known plot or simply made it up... so please don't take my theories as certain.

My guess is this has happened before (As Eorzea eras are marked by catatastrophes of mass distruction) and the Circle of knowing (Archons) might be made of their survivors/important entities/possessor's of the Echo and manifestations of the 12(as the 12 are connected to the era swaps, I think?). Their goal might be simply to keep Eorzea safe and prevent the next disaster.

It'd also explain why/if we get a neck tattoo... we'd be the next survivors and new members of the Circle.

Bahamut being imprisioned was probably the last attempt at delaying the new era (or even what the 12 originally did)."

Now, I'll start by quoting what Yoshi recently said:

"Dragons" also correspond to what Eorzeans call "the beast tribes." In other words… Nidhogg is not a God, but a high-ranking dragon, and Midgardsormr is also special, but is not a God. For humans, there are many kings depending on the era. That’s all I can say."

This made me wonder and twist a little what I previously said... what if Nael is acctually under Nidhogg's influence, and not Bahamut's?

Back then, the Allagan empire might have sent Bahamut to space in Dalamud as he was the supreme king and the dragon's "god", for considering him a permanent threat and, perhaps force a new era.. an era in which Allagan would be the supreme entity. Ultimately it led to the civilization's demise, anyway. Nidhogg might be simply trying to bring his God back, so the dragons can awake and start a new Era. (I think he acctually mentions the return of the king of wyrms in the DRG storyline).

What next makes me wonder... is the horse's sound at the end of the trailer, which leads me to think Odin (who I believe might be connected to the Empire/Gaius) suceeded to somewhat stop Mega-Flare, and culminated in Bahamut's emprisionment in 2.0's labyrinth.

This is all purely speculation... and I apologize if my english isn't the best! Please elaborate if you feel like it. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Boxworm

So, though there is nothing conclusive here, we at least know that there are rumours about the Archons being incarnations of the Twelve. It is difficult to make many connections between the Archons and the Gods -- for example, Thancred is a Bard who uses knives. The closest I could link him to was Oschon, who is depicted as a carefree ranger wielding a bow. This, of course, is pretty far off from Thancred's character, however for now let us assume that these depictions are in some way incorrect, or that the Archons are attempting to hide the obvious connections.

---

I'll admit that I've been trolling these forums a little bit since the servers went down and this is my first post, but I've become a little interested in these threads too. One piece of information that goes along with this idea that comes to my mind is the very beginning cutscene for Gridania when you make your character. The taru and mnk npc (wasn't very good and memorizing their names) both appear to fall from the sky and land in the open field with you, having no idea where they are or where they came from. Then the wolves appear and you go through the battle tutorial. This could be a clue that they are "heaven sent Gods"? I'm not sure how the Ul'dah and Limsa opening scenes are, if there are similarities with those nation's Achrons coming into the world.

So every era ended with different calamity, but do all of those caused by the Empire? If that's so then we're all gonna die again in ARR?!?!?! Just like the Matrix?!?!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zenaku

Bahamut been inside dalamud for how many years? i don't he most more powerful then he was when he was first seals. Dalamud is made of energy even darnus use this energy in the final fight and then his body went to dalamud.

I say that the Twelve are just that as powerful at that time when bahamut got free or bahamut is way more powerful now then he was.

---

Well Bahamut was absorbing the aether of the planet, it makes sense that his power would be ridiculous.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alerith

I think this actually helps give us a better insight on what is going on. The Twelve may be OUR gods, but they aren't THE gods that all races bow to.

This could imply that Bahamut is the Primal God and is the supreme deity of the Primals/Beastmen.

---

Very interesting. This makes me think.. if the Twelve are our gods, and the Primals are the Beastmen gods, yet Bahamut is the overlord of the Primals.. then surely one of the Twelve, or another entity altogether, must be our overlord? Would keep things balanced.

Thanks everyone for the great responses, I didn't think so many people would read my mindless drivel! :P

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Thunderclaude

I'll admit that I've been trolling these forums a little bit since the servers went down and this is my first post, but I've become a little interested in these threads too. One piece of information that goes along with this idea that comes to my mind is the very beginning cutscene for Gridania when you make your character. The taru and mnk npc (wasn't very good and memorizing their names) both appear to fall from the sky and land in the open field with you, having no idea where they are or where they came from. Then the wolves appear and you go through the battle tutorial. This could be a clue that they are "heaven sent Gods"? I'm not sure how the Ul'dah and Limsa opening scenes are, if there are similarities with those nation's Achrons coming into the world.

---

Their airship was going down and they bailed. The Archons and the Circle of Knowing were merely watching the 3 City States to see if they even had the ability to come together and stop the Garleans before they threw in their hats and got the Grand Companies rolling (with our help of course).

Quote:

---

So every era ended with different calamity, but do all of those caused by the Empire? If that's so then we're all gonna die again in ARR?!?!?! Just like the Matrix?!?!

---

Every era ended with a disaster associated with a certain element yes lol and no they were not all caused by the Empire. But a few times it's thought that the Archons have caused the disasters.

Quote:

---

Very interesting. This makes me think.. if the Twelve are our gods, and the Primals are the Beastmen gods, yet Bahamut is the overlord of the Primals.. then surely one of the Twelve, or another entity altogether, must be our overlord? Would keep things balanced.

---

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__...The_Twelve.png

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Messenger

So every era ended with different calamity, but do all of those caused by the Empire? If that's so then we're all gonna die again in ARR?!?!?! Just like the Matrix?!?!

---

I doubt it. There are very, very many years between each Umbral era. For example, it was 1500 years between the Sixth and Seventh eras.

I wouldn't say the Empire caused all of the catastrophes.. from what I remember, each Umbral era is meant to symbolize the Twelve's anger or something like that. The Seventh era is the only one that hasn't been connected to an element. (The Sixth era brought flooding, one was an ice age, one brought fires, etc.) This kind of leads me to believe that the first six were caused by natural disasters.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NoloeTazier

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__...The_Twelve.png

---

Can I get an explanation for this?

What I think is really interesting is the fact that the Allagan Empire sealed Bahamut in a "man-made" prison and sent him into space somehow, and I wonder if this is different than what we were trying to do.

/tinfoilhat:

The Twelve are just an ancient set of tools/magic created by the Allagan Empire that is fueled by Aether and ... prayer somehow directs aether to it/them (lol). Like the Darnus song goes: All the gods are dead and technology rules in heaven (or whatever)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Boxworm

Can I get an explanation for this?

---

In character creation, you get info about each of the twelve- who is whom's father, daughter, spouse, brother etc. This chart was written to show the "family tree", as it were.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Boxworm

Can I get an explanation for this?

---

Just showing an associate of the Twelve with each other. Althyk and Nymeia being brother and sister, etc. Althyk is the surveyor of change and space and god of time. Nymeia is the watcher of celestial bodies and goddess of fate. They seem to be the more prominent 2, in terms of universal power.