Please bring back surplus

Nah, just foolin'. This was literally the WORST idea in the whole debacle that was the XIV launch.

It'd have been better to require a pin-prick blood sample at every login than surplus.

thing is, rested bonus is basically surplus except the word 'bonus' is used instead of 'penalty.'

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

thing is, rested bonus is basically surplus except the word 'bonus' is used instead of 'penalty.'

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...which makes it inherently the opposite when using the English language. ^^

P1: Surplus in the XIV world is either a penalty that is imposed upon players for playing (A) or a reward imposed upon players not playing (B).
P2: Surplus in the XIV world, as it stands now, is not a penalty imposed upon players for playing (A).
C: Therefore surplus in the XIV world, as it stands now, is a reward imposed upon players for not playing.

P1: A > B
P2: ~A
C: -> B

Boole says this passes.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

thing is, rested bonus is basically surplus except the word 'bonus' is used instead of 'penalty.'

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Except, you know, you can still level up normally when your bonus runs out.

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Originally Posted by Yves

...which makes it inherently the opposite when using the English language. ^^

P1: Surplus in the XIV world is either a penalty that is imposed upon players for playing (A) or a reward imposed upon players not playing (B).
P2: Surplus in the XIV world, as it stands now, is not a penalty imposed upon players for playing (A).
C: Therefore surplus in the XIV world, as it stands now, is a reward imposed upon players for not playing.

P1: A > B
P2: ~A
C: -> B

Boole says this passes.

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get bonus -> Play too much -> Bonus used up -> get less EXP
Unless you're leveling up constantly, it's pretty easy to have bonus on all the time, thus a 'penalty' is imposed on you for playing too much (long enough to use up the "bonus.")
-or-
get "normal" exp -> play too much -> enter "surplus" -> get less Exp

The difference between the two is subtle at best.

You know, WoW did this too after beta, they had a 'fatigued" EXP tier, then people coplained, so they made "fatigued" the normal tier and called what used to be the normal tier "rested EXP" and everyone was happy even though they didn't actually change the parameters of the system at all.

When a bonus tends to be active more often than not, you become used to it, so you start to perceive the time without the bonus as a penalty.

Granted, in FFXIV, surplus was a little different, because it was possible to go down to zero EXP gain, whereas that's no longer possible. Just saying, these two things aren't really as different as people perceive them to be.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

get bonus -> Play too much -> Bonus used up -> get less EXP
Unless you're leveling up constantly, it's pretty easy to have bonus on all the time, thus a 'penalty' is imposed on you for playing too much (long enough to use up the "bonus.")
-or-
get "normal" exp -> play too much -> enter "surplus" -> get less Exp

The difference between the two is subtle at best.

You know, WoW did this too after beta, they had a 'fatigued" EXP tier, then people coplained, so they made "fatigued" the normal tier and called what used to be the normal tier "rested EXP" and everyone was happy even though they didn't actually change the parameters of the system at all.

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Your missing the point that surplus penalized standard EXP. The argument that surplus, as it stands today, is standard is incorrect. It may be common but it isn't standard. The difference is about as subtle as going putting a car in drive in reverse. The car is moving but in totally different directions.

Today: play too much, revert to standard
Before: play too much, standard is penalized

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Your missing the point that surplus penalized standard EXP.

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I'm not missing the point. As described in my example, WoW used to have "normal" become "fatigued EXP" after you gained a certain amount of exp- this fatigue would recover over time (just like you gain rested bonus over time)

After beta they changed it to "rested" and "normal EXP"- but the numbers, the parameters of the system were no different- they literally just changed the labels. "Rested" EXP was the same EXP that normal was before, and "normal" was the same as what "fatigued" was before. Yet people were happy, because they thought they were getting a bonus and no more penalty.

The only true difference here is that Surplus kept penalizing you more and more, while the fatigue WoW initially had was constant.

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Today: play too much, revert to standard
Before: play too much, standard is penalized

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except for the fact that standard could get more and more penalized as you kept playing, there is no difference between these two things other than the labels. it was all a matter of perception.

Because i spend so much time on a level 50 class, I'm basically always in "rested" mode. Thus, I percieve the "rested" exp as "normal". After all, the very definition of "normal" is what is typical, common, the usual. This makes the "normal" exp more like a penalty.

Disclaimer: I'm not actually upset or angry or complaining. I'm merely making observations here. The system is fine as it is (and this thread was clearly not serious in the first place)

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

I'm not missing the point. As described in my example, WoW used to have "normal" "fatigued EXP" after you gained a certain amount of exp- this fatigue would recover over time (just like you gain rested bonus over time)

After beta they changed it to "rested" and "normal EXP"- but the numbers, the parameters of the system were no different- they literally just changed the labels. "Rested" EXP was the same EXP that normal was before, and "normal" was the same as what "fatigued" was before. Yet people were happy, because they thought they were getting a bonus and no more penalty.

The only true difference here is that Surplus kept penalizing you more and more, while the fatigue WoW initially had was constant.

except for the fact that standard could get more and more penalized as you kept playing, there is no difference between these two things other than the labels.

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(A x B) - C = X
(A x B) + C = X

A: Time played (can also be EXP gained)
B: imposed multiplier (be it a penalty or bonus)
C: EXP standard
X: Net EXP

The two are entirely different equations. The only way that the equations are the same is if the value of C was adjusted in a manner that offset the change in values of B. I don't know if there was an offset since I'm not involved in the programming. From my experience (from launch until now with only about a total of one month AFK) there didn't appear to be.

Anyhooo, you can plug any numbers into the equation and the results are entirely different. Hence, they are not the same thing.

A: 10
B: 7
C: 3

(10 x 7) - 3 = 67
(10 x 7) + 3 = 73

You're not doing the math correctly. You are using different formulas for each scenario, when in WoW the same formulas were used for both scenarios.

In FFXIV it isn't exactly the same because EXP was totally rebalanced and different amounts of EXP were given for different things (and they introduced chains and other effects), and the surplus EXP wasn't constant (it would get worse if you kept pushing it)

In the example I gave, the "penalized" EXP of the old system and the "normal" EXP of the new system were the EXACT SAME AMOUNTS OF EXP. The amount of EXP after the bonus was applied in the new system and the amount of exp before the penalty was applied in the old system were EXACT SAME AMOUNTS of EXP.

That is:

Old: Get 100 EXP a kill, degrades to 50 EXP. Degredation recovers with inactivity.
New: Get 50 EXP a kill, bonus is 100 EXP. Bonus accumulates with inactivity.

LITERALLY THE SAME FORMULAS WERE USED. I REPEAT- the SAME formulas. The only difference was what they called each tier of EXP.

I realize that what I described about "having the bonus most of the time due to my circumstances" isn't something that everyone experiences. But when you always have a bonus, it's as if the bonus is the normal tier and you are being penalized after you play for so long (when you don't normally play that long). This is just a perception that occurs by having a bonus always applied.

Again- in all fairness, FFXIV didn't do things exactly the same way, and since it was possible for EXP gain to stop completely, FFXIV's surplus was a shitty thing to have- now even in the worst case scenario, you're still gaining EXP. So it's a massive improvement and everyone was rightfully happy. I'm simply describing to you how when a bonus becomes the norm, the norm can be viewed as a penalty.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Old: Get 100 EXP a kill, degrades to 50 EXP:
New: Get 50 EXP a kill, bonus is 100 EXP.

LITERALLY THE SAME FORMULAS WERE USED. I REPEAT- the SAME formulas. The only difference was what they called each tier of EXP.

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I'm calling BS on this. The EXP was actually increased per mob with the introduction of the new surplus system. EXP per mob was absolutely not reduced in order to balance the same equation. Remove linking bonus and go back to the post-coblyn/doblyn nerf. Kill a r50 dobyln at level 49 and it gave you around 198 EXP. Go kill one now and you're not getting <198. Based on that information there was no such adjustment made.

Either I'm not understanding your point or you're using incorrect information. No offense intended, btw.

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I'm calling BS on this. The EXP was actually increased per mob with the introduction of the new surplus system.

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That's because I'm describing what another game did. The information you quoted is not based on FFXIV. It was a similar system in another game, however there are certain key differences that FFXIV's system had that made the changed system an actual improvement instead of a relabeling of terms.

Thus

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Either I'm not understanding your point or you're using incorrect information.

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It's the former. We were simply not on the same page as far as I can tell. I'm explaining to you how perception alters reality in one's mind and used another game to illustrate the example. XIV's situation is not the same as WoW's was, but there are similarities.

Because I have the rested bonus on all the time, I usually stop EXPing if it runs out, because I don't want to get less EXP than I'm used to getting. If you're the kind of person who is EXPing constantly, you don't get this perception because you're not used to having the bonus.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

That's because I'm describing what another game did. The information you quoted is not based on FFXIV. It was a similar system in another game, however there are certain key differences that FFXIV's system had that made the changed system an actual improvement instead of a relabeling of terms.

Thus
It's the former. We were simply not on the same page as far as I can tell. I'm explaining to you how perception alters reality in one's mind and used another game to illustrate the example. XIV's situation is not the same as WoW's was, but there are similarities.

Because I have the rested bonus on all the time, I usually stop EXPing if it runs out, because I don't want to get less EXP than I'm used to getting. If you're the kind of person who is EXPing constantly, you don't get this perception because you're not used to having the bonus.

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LMFAO I KNEW we we're missing each other at some point. Good stuff. And yes, I am a firm believer that perception IS reality until challenged. It was a fun conversation because I was starting to run some logical proofs! Good laugh!

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Originally Posted by Yves

LMFAO I KNEW we we're missing each other at some point. Good stuff. And yes, I am a firm believer that perception IS reality until challenged. It was a fun conversation because I was starting to run some logical proofs! Good laugh!

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As was I. I like having a good discussion where there's no hostility. >.>

Even if the two systems are identical, people are empowered by positive language. Nobody likes negativity, so inevitably people prefer the "bonus" over the "penalty" even in the case of WoW where there was literally no difference. In FFXIV there was a HUGE difference because surplus was able to make your exp drop to nothing, rather than being a constant value. That more than anything else is what made it a piece of $%&t and what made the system we have now feel like a breath of fresh air. FFXIV was all like "No XP 4 U! U 2 hardcorz! Let noobs catch up!"

From your account, WoW only switched terms around.
Extra Credits: Energy Systems
http://extra-credits.net/episodes/energy-systems/ @1m30s & 3m20s

FFXIV revamped their EXP system a bunch of times.
Not only did they get rid of skill points, which the amount you gain can vary greatly with the same mob,
in turn got rid of rank and just stuck with level and experience points.
They also added link bonus, chain bonus, and removed Guardian's Aspect which adding EXP bonus only on leves.
Removed as well the large EXP bonus by leve links with party members.

Anyhow, aside from all the changes, the current rested bonus doesn't even work nearly as close to surplus did. Surplus had a set timer where it would have reset regardless on a weekly timer. Rest bonus depends on how long you just stay at the inn, and not determined by any set server timers.

And like you've mentioned surplus would cut your skill point gain to 0 after a certain point. Literally forcing you to stop leveling that job. I think there was some way to mitigate hitting fatigue by leveling up another job, but that's aside from the point.

Purpose of the designs;

Design of surplus, they wanted players to take a break from the fatigued job and try out other jobs, not necessarily to stop playing the game. This was invasive, the game prevents you from progressing the fatigued job any further and dictates when or how you'll be allowed you to again.

Design of obtaining rested bonus is pretty much telling you to log off the game since the only other thing you can do in the inn is re-watch cutscenes, or sort your inventory. This isn't really invasive because when the player wants to just stop playing, they would stop on their own accord, and if they desire, retire their character at an inn.

Komoto's Official Explanation on Surplus Points
http://ffxiv.zam.com/story.html?story=23092

Job Fatigue article
http://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/Job_Fatigue

Letter from the Producer, V (03/03/2011) - mentions purpose of fatigue on Question #7
http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com...16083b634f7678