Wouldn't having two "Freelance" classes make more sense than the current system?

Lets take these classes, Onion Knight and Onion Mage for simplicity, one being the base for DoW and the other DoM. As you level the class, you would learn "class" spells and skill. For instance the Mage would learn Cure, fire, protect, etc, while the Knight learns Provoke, second wind, invigorate. The weapons they can choose from would be pretty relaxed, melee weapons for DoW and staves/wands for DoM.

Around lv30, the class caps and the option to quest job souls becomes available, which start at level 1. These would obviously yield more job specific abilities such as flash/cover/sentinel for PLD. Once the soul is equip, obviously the selection of weapons is reduced to each job's main hand.This would allow for real diversity between jobs while still having a handful of low level abilities to choose from.

Yes.

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Yes
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this sounds even more confusing, and i'm not sure what purpose it serves. jobs are already diverse.

the current system also lays the groundwork for future class-to-(multiple)job interaction. people need to stop looking at this so short sightedly.

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Originally Posted by Ikkenoe

this sounds even more confusing, and i'm not sure what purpose it serves. jobs are already diverse.

the current system also lays the groundwork for future class-to-(multiple)job interaction. people need to stop looking at this so short sightedly.

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It's pretty much the same system, only it combines all of the DoW classes into one, and the same for the DoM classes.

But what about Archers

So maybe 1 magic, 1 close combat and one ranged?

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Originally Posted by Renen

So maybe 1 magic, 1 close combat and one ranged?

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But then the ranged would....just be Archer stuff for now >_> and not be able to use any of the melee stuff.

Yes, I like this idea a lot :)

So..............................


something like.. FFT Squire Class and Chemist Class? @_@

Thats what we had at launch/now basically....but now you want it rolled into one class? No thanks.

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Originally Posted by Firon

Thats what we had at launch/now basically....but now you want it rolled into one class? No thanks.

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Can you elaborate as to why?

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Originally Posted by TaalAzura

Can you elaborate as to why?

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Cause at launch when you lvl both THM/CNJ to 50 they was basically the same class no matter what, just the weapon used was different, same thing for melee classes.. Why would you wanna combine 7 classes into 2? That makes no sense takes away tons of depth to the game.

But why would you prefer having 7 classes that you don't play?

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Originally Posted by TaalAzura

But why would you prefer having 7 classes that you don't play?

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Who says i don't use my classes? I very much use Gla, pgl and thm for solo cause i don't like to rest ever when i'm killing things. I find it crazy how ppl are so crazed with the FF job names they refuse to play the class anymore when they are clearly having a hard time soloing on the job counterpart.

I like having my jobs as they are, feels more diverse that way.

Would someone please explain how the class branching to multiple jobs will make those jobs diverse?
Ex. Gladiator splitting to Paladin and let's say Dark Knight. In the current system... Dark Knight would have all the tanking abilities of gladiator, plus its five unique abilities. /confused
Same applies to it being tied to any other class -- there's going to be a mind boggling amount of ability changing for it to make any sense.

No.

No it wouldn't.

Being able to solo more effectively on classes is necessary in my book. With the OP's system I'd only be able to solo on two classes up to 30, then I'd have to start over if I were to choose a job. The class/job hybrid system actually addresses common complaints from XI while still giving the nostalgia of the older Final Fantasy games. It really isn't necessary to level a job from 1-50 in order to know that job. It was the same for XI. Every job responsibility drastically changed at around the 30-40 range, but this isn't XI, I know. I'm just making a comparison to show that it's not necessary to level a job from 1 to learn it. You learn the job by playing the job, and in XIV's case, you learn the fights by playing the fights.

I think it's fine as is and has even more potential for diversification as the level cap increases in due time.

Wait till we have 12 classes, 12 jobs. Armor will need 2 pages just to list GLD PLD MRD WAR etc. Also like it was mentioned Jobs are suppose to be more specialized classes if we have 2 jobs branching from 1 Class how much can those Jobs really be different when you get the same Class abilities, cept for a different 2nd Class, but really that doesn't add a whole lot. Gladiator -> Paladin tank. Gladiator -> Dark Knight it has tanking abilities but we all view it at as a Melee DD with Black Mage spells tossed in, I'm sure Shield Bash and Flash will come in handy.

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Originally Posted by NoloeTazier

Wait till we have 12 classes, 12 jobs. Armor will need 2 pages just to list GLD PLD MRD WAR etc. Also like it was mentioned Jobs are suppose to be more specialized classes if we have 2 jobs branching from 1 Class how much can those Jobs really be different when you get the same Class abilities, cept for a different 2nd Class, but really that doesn't add a whole lot. Gladiator -> Paladin tank. Gladiator -> Dark Knight it has tanking abilities but we all view it at as a Melee DD with Black Mage spells tossed in, I'm sure Shield Bash and Flash will come in handy.

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You are thinking too close-minded.
What if Gladiator turns to be Red Mage, subbing into Thaumaturge and Conjurer with most of their offense coming in the form of THM and RDM spells? He'll be a mid-range attacker with good survival skills and support.
What if Gladiator turns to be Rune Knight, with abilities like Silence, giving party members MP and blocking enemy spells? The magical counterpart of Paladin.
Hell what if he turns out to be Dark Knight alright, and has an FFIVDS version of Darkness that greatly amplifies his attack power at the expense of gobs of HP, all of his self-defense abilities will be nescessary, imagine even a spell that make so he 'counters' with a draining attack when he's hit?

Open your mind, child. There is no spoon.

That would be SOOO boring .... no...

when I started the game.. I enjoyed the fact that I was a Lancer and had Lancer skills.. and my friend had their own roles. Made us learning the game much more fun.

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Originally Posted by Skies

You are thinking too close-minded.
What if Gladiator turns to be Red Mage, subbing into Thaumaturge and Conjurer with most of their offense coming in the form of THM and RDM spells? He'll be a mid-range attacker with good survival skills and support.
What if Gladiator turns to be Rune Knight, with abilities like Silence, giving party members MP and blocking enemy spells? The magical counterpart of Paladin.
Hell what if he turns out to be Dark Knight alright, and has an FFIVDS version of Darkness that greatly amplifies his attack power at the expense of gobs of HP, all of his self-defense abilities will be nescessary, imagine even a spell that make so he 'counters' with a draining attack when he's hit?

Open your mind, child. There is no spoon.

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That's not what I'm talking about, I'm talking about 2 Jobs stemming from the same base Class. Gladiator -> Paladin and Gladiator -> Dark Knight. It gets tanking abilities from Gladiator, but we all view Dark Knight as a DD with Black Mage. Even with say Black Mage/Arcanist as the other 2, that doesn't take away from the fact its main source of abilities are Tanking or Shield Base.

No. And actually expecting them to change the armory system at this point is stupid.

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Originally Posted by TaalAzura

But why would you prefer having 7 classes that you don't play?

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that's a bit presumptive. I use all of my classes. Even the ones I have jobs for, I still use classes. Sorry, I'd rather it stay this way instead of unnecessarily changing things.

Doubt the system will be fundamentally altered at this stage,

But there are still some lingering problems.

1. The Class system is designed for solo or casual play but there are still a number of cross class skills which are only obtained by grinding classes up quite high.

2. There are the same few cross class skills used whichever class you are on so there is little diversity.

I think the Class system would be more casual friendly if the classes were merged into a single Freelancer class capable of using melee/magic/range to no expert proficiency or traits but let them have double stat growth. Solo or Casual players can then reach cap quickly and enjoy some content to a degree, and without frustration of levelling bits and bobs of 7 classes. It would be a basic class with little flash to it but at the same time not terribly weak.

Theres also problems with the Job system.

1. I'm not particularly fond of the Job gaining new weaponskills or spells that are in effect the final stage of a combo started in the Class. That could be why a lot of people see the Class as unneeded once you have the Job unlocked. I would rather the Class and Job seperate entirely at an early level. That way the Class and Job could have its own skill sets in their entirety. At the moment the Job skills feel plonked on top. With any level cap increase, this will still be the case.

2. If the current system remains, even with new Jobs announced, there is again a very limited pool of cross class skills to choose from. (Thats fine really imo, i feel the main problem is differentiating class from job more)

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Originally Posted by Altanas

Doubt the system will be fundamentally altered at this stage,

But there are still some lingering problems.

1. The Class system is designed for solo or casual play but there are still a number of cross class skills which are only obtained by grinding classes up quite high.

2. There are the same few cross class skills used whichever class you are on so there is little diversity.

I think the Class system would be more casual friendly if the classes were merged into a single Freelancer class capable of using melee/magic/range to no expert proficiency or traits but let them have double stat growth. Solo or Casual players can then reach cap quickly and enjoy some content to a degree, and without frustration of levelling bits and bobs of 7 classes. It would be a basic class with little flash to it but at the same time not terribly weak.

Theres also problems with the Job system.

1. I'm not particularly fond of the Job gaining new weaponskills or spells that are in effect the final stage of a combo started in the Class. That could be why a lot of people see the Class as unneeded once you have the Job unlocked. I would rather the Class and Job seperate entirely at an early level. That way the Class and Job could have its own skill sets in their entirety. At the moment the Job skills feel plonked on top. With any level cap increase, this will still be the case.

2. If the current system remains, even with new Jobs announced, there is again a very limited pool of cross class skills to choose from. (Thats fine really imo, i feel the main problem is differentiating class from job more)

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That's exactly the point. Anything with WHM "subbed" will have Cure/Stoneskin/Raise, PUG will have Second Wind. Hopefully in the future we will gain a lot more abilities. To make a new Job seem new, they have to introduce an entirely new Class to open up into the Job.

I'm honestly curious what people are using their classes for. You say you use them for soloing, but what are you soloing? Nothing worth doing is soloable. If you want to have a convoluted class/job system so that you can farm trash monsters for gil, there is something wrong with you.

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Originally Posted by Skies

You are thinking too close-minded.
What if Gladiator turns to be Red Mage, subbing into Thaumaturge and Conjurer with most of their offense coming in the form of THM and RDM spells? He'll be a mid-range attacker with good survival skills and support.
What if Gladiator turns to be Rune Knight, with abilities like Silence, giving party members MP and blocking enemy spells? The magical counterpart of Paladin.
Hell what if he turns out to be Dark Knight alright, and has an FFIVDS version of Darkness that greatly amplifies his attack power at the expense of gobs of HP, all of his self-defense abilities will be nescessary, imagine even a spell that make so he 'counters' with a draining attack when he's hit?

Open your mind, child. There is no spoon.

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As it stands now, there are not many possibilities for multiple jobs on one class. Having five new abilities, one of which is a 15 minute cooldown, is not going to redefine a class. If you think that a sub job is actually something that can help define a job, you are wrong. The combat system is designed around combos, one thing that you cannot do with your sub jobs' abilities. If you made gladiator turn into rdm, having thunder would not make them capable of being a DD. All their rdm spells would have to combo off of a shield block, an enmity generating combo, or their one DD combo.

This is already getting long, so Ill get to my point. There can't be multiple jobs branching off of one class until at least level 60. The amount of abilities that differs between the job and the class needs to be at least around a 1:2 ratio, not the 1:3 ratio that it is now.

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Originally Posted by Ryans

I'm honestly curious what people are using their classes for. You say you use them for soloing, but what are you soloing? Nothing worth doing is soloable. If you want to have a convoluted class/job system so that you can farm trash monsters for gil, there is something wrong with you.



As it stands now, there are not many possibilities for multiple jobs on one class. Having five new abilities, one of which is a 15 minute cooldown, is not going to redefine a class. If you think that a sub job is actually something that can help define a job, you are wrong. The combat system is designed around combos, one thing that you cannot do with your sub jobs' abilities. If you made gladiator turn into rdm, having thunder would not make them capable of being a DD. All their rdm spells would have to combo off of a shield block, an enmity generating combo, or their one DD combo.

This is already getting long, so Ill get to my point. There can't be multiple jobs branching off of one class until at least level 60. The amount of abilities that differs between the job and the class needs to be at least around a 1:2 ratio, not the 1:3 ratio that it is now.

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My LS brings 1 BLM and 1 THM for Skirmish and some Primals so that the THM can have an extra Raise.

It's a interesting idea. the problem being it would require the total gutting of the armory system and basically a reintroduction of physical levels and the whole can of bee's that went with them.

When Yoshi decided to add Jobs he should have abolished Classes, but I guess that would have been too much work at the time so he decided on this Class/Job hybrid system where Jobs are just Classes with a couple of new abilities plus a unique set of armor. The only purpose Classes serve is for you to sacrifice dps so you can equip Raise and other support abilities.

This reminds me of a suggestion I had sent to SquareEnix a while ago. At the time my biggest complaint with the game was the lack of any type of class structure, which has been remedied by the inclusion of the Jobs to FFXIV. Having an actual role in the game would make players feel unique and wanted, since they specialize in something specific. Every class in FFXI has a role and a purpose, and I thought FFXIV was missing this very essential aspect of play. But I'll continue with what I wrote back then.

The Chart

http://i41.tinypic.com/jadfti.jpg


The Description

So now that you have seen the basic idea I'll try and explain how it all works so you can make sense of it. Lets begin with Onion Knight (or Freelancer), which is the job that every new player starts at. Currently players can choose any job (including the crafting and harvesting jobs) to start as, however going through the tutorial as a crafting or harvesting job can leave a bad first impression of FFXIV. Having the same base starting job for everyone would also make it feel like a throw back to FFXI, which a lot of people would value especially if they were FFXI players. As you may have noticed the Onion Knight levels from 1 to 5 which acts as the intro into FFXIV, such as the story, your first guild leve, and other such things. After you reach level 5 then you're able to branch off into Fighter, Mage, and Scout, so let me explain how that works.

The three jobs (Fighter, Mage, and Scout) last from 5 to 15, which are used to show you the basics of each of the gameplay styles. As a Fighter you should get tank style gameplay, as a Mage you should get elemental damage and beneficial spell gameplay, and as a Scout you should get support and damage gameplay. Once a player reaches level 15 though, things really start to open up.

At level 15 you begin to specialize and expand upon your new found abilities. If you level Fighter, Mage, and Scout all to level 15, then you unlock Warrior, Monk, Black Mage, Red Mage, White Mage, Thief, and Ranger. These seven classes are able to level all the way to the level cap of 50, so if a player wants to specialize in being a Monk they can. For those players that want to have more advanced abilities that expand upon the basic seven jobs can unlock advanced jobs that begin at level 30. These advanced jobs retain some of the abilities and spells from the seven basic jobs, and build upon the experience and knowledge that is already in place there.


The Explanation

So how does this system work? Well, lets take a look back at FFXI to see how it compares to this proposed system. In FFXI you would level Warrior to 18, do the subjob quest, then level up Monk/Warrior to 15, then level Warrior/Monk to 30, and finally do the job quest for Paladin which would start you all the way back at level 1. Why is returning to level 1 necessary? You have more than enough experience as a Warrior to know how it works, so all you would have to learn is the Paladin side of things.

In my proposed system, the player is brought through the basics of how the job types work and how they can advance into more specialized jobs. So how would a usual progression work with my system? Well I start playing FFXIV, I'm an Onion Knight, and I'm really enjoying the magic casting. Once I reach level 5 I'll take up the Mage job and focus on Magic. I've reached level 15 now and Magic is certainly what I want to focus on, but now I'm given a choice to specialize in Black Mage, Red Mage, or White Mage. I think I enjoy healing so I'll start leveling up White Mage, thus I begin to level up White Mage. As I reach level 30 I'm enticed by Summoner, but I decide I'll pursue that later and continue leveling White Mage to 50.

So why is this a good idea? Well it helps everyone out including the developers, the designers, and the players. First off it helps the developers and designers because for the advanced jobs you only have to worry about balancing the last 20 levels instead of a full 50 levels. Secondly, the players can stay in the fun parts of the game instead of continually being stuck in lower levels.

I do want to point out that spells and abilities won't be useable across jobs, and there won't be any subjobs. What really needs to be done is remove subjobs from the equation and make complete jobs from the start. Having subjobs will always create unbalanced combinations, and I think removing them will give us richer jobs with unique ablities and better experiences through the game. My suggestion is somewhat similar to subjobs, except it's controlled. Because it's so similar to a concept we're already familiar with, it would make sense for you to use along with the already familiar race styles. We won't have RDM/NIN or other similar crazy combinations with the system, but still have a feel of progression while sustaining unique qualities.

For example, in FFXI Warrior was the subjob of choice as a Paladin because of Taunt, and it works the same here. The abilities that Warrior obtains from levels 1 to 30 are the base that Paladin builds upon, which means Warrior acts like a type of subjob. The point is, it lets players play the job they want, without having to worry about subjob harassment and other such things from elitest players. Again I really think anything is possible if you had the chance to redesign all of the jobs any way you see fit, which is exactly what can be done in FFXIV.

I like the system as is. Simple as that.

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Originally Posted by Ryans

I'm honestly curious what people are using their classes for. You say you use them for soloing, but what are you soloing? Nothing worth doing is soloable. If you want to have a convoluted class/job system so that you can farm trash monsters for gil, there is something wrong with you.



As it stands now, there are not many possibilities for multiple jobs on one class. Having five new abilities, one of which is a 15 minute cooldown, is not going to redefine a class. If you think that a sub job is actually something that can help define a job, you are wrong. The combat system is designed around combos, one thing that you cannot do with your sub jobs' abilities. If you made gladiator turn into rdm, having thunder would not make them capable of being a DD. All their rdm spells would have to combo off of a shield block, an enmity generating combo, or their one DD combo.

This is already getting long, so Ill get to my point. There can't be multiple jobs branching off of one class until at least level 60. The amount of abilities that differs between the job and the class needs to be at least around a 1:2 ratio, not the 1:3 ratio that it is now.

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I like to farm mats and mobs do hurt when they are lvl 52-54, no matter how much you can kill something on mnk and say see there i soloed a lvl 54 pig np just like pgl but in the end pgl comes out of the fight takes 0 dmg while you lost half of your hp on mnk.

It's all about not loosing steam for me, being able to kill hogs near brittle bark for 2 hours w/o any breaks proves classes can solo better than job ppl just refuse to give up their titles.

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Originally Posted by TaalAzura

Lets take these classes, Onion Knight and Onion Mage for simplicity, one being the base for DoW and the other DoM. As you level the class, you would learn "class" spells and skill. For instance the Mage would learn Cure, fire, protect, etc, while the Knight learns Provoke, second wind, invigorate. The weapons they can choose from would be pretty relaxed, melee weapons for DoW and staves/wands for DoM.

Around lv30, the class caps and the option to quest job souls becomes available, which start at level 1. These would obviously yield more job specific abilities such as flash/cover/sentinel for PLD. Once the soul is equip, obviously the selection of weapons is reduced to each job's main hand.This would allow for real diversity between jobs while still having a handful of low level abilities to choose from.

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Level 1-10: Onion Knight/Mage (learns only the basic skills for each classes -- tutorial part of the game as Yoshi P. mentioned)
Level 10-50: Classes (You get to specialize at this level - what we have now, no difference)
Level 30-50: Jobs (what we have now, no difference)

But I'm not too sure why we would do that anyway. The classes/jobs system is very nice already and allows people to enjoy a specialty right from the beginning.

Honestly, I'd rather stick with the classes/jobs system we have. We should add a few more classes (pet classes, more mages) and A LOT more jobs (at least 2 jobs for each classes -- DoL and DoH included!)

I personally thinks the FF XIV Armoury system is an innovative idea, but lack of job balancing. Take an example of CNJ, he can take the role of DoT damage dealer, enfebbler and healer at the same time, which is basically the same as FF XI Red Mage. SE should specify each job to specifically excels in one role to remedy this issue.

One of the balanced class system in MMO that I know is on Emil Chronicle Online, which dubbed as one of the successful MMO in Japan (and among us Otaku, yeah \o/). It adopts same principle of Discipline in FF XIV Armory, but minus the ability to cross job into other discipline.

There are 3 class (read: discipline) in this game, Fighter Class (DoW), Spell-User Class (DoM), and Backpacker Class (DoL and DoH combined). each class has 4 basic jobs, which later will be branching into expert and technical job, improving their role further.

Here the picture and description of Fighter Class and Spell-User Class.

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Fighter Class (DoW)

http://i49.tinypic.com/35b78g8.jpg

- Swordsman is your average hack-and-slash job, had average HP, ATK, and skills. On higher lv, the job will branching into Blademaster and Bounty Hunter. Blademaster focuses on PvE, using many swordskills that have various effect against the type of monster he battled, while Bounty Hunter excels in PvP, utilizing delay removal skills and equipment remover skills.

- Fencer is your tank, High HP, crappy ATK, and various defense buffs. On higher lv, the job will branching into Knight and Dark Stalker. Knight is your Paladin, your meat shield with various skills to attract monster and heal party, while Dark Stalkers improving the damage with using magic, and steals enemy HP in process.

- Scout is the Thief class, high AGI, decent DPS, crappy HP. On higher lv, the job will branching into Assassin and Commando. Assassin excels in poisons and stealth, while commando relies on fists combo and bombs to decimate the opponent.

- Archer is your range class, able to hit enemies from afar, and kinda weak in taking damage. On higher lv, the job will branching into Hunter and Gunner. Hunter relies on his pet and exploiting enemy weakness with elemental shots, while Gunner focuses on pure weapon damage and 100% hit buffs.

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Spell-User Class (DoM)

http://i46.tinypic.com/2db2ngn.png

- Wizard is your debuff mage, has various array of debilitating magic such as Stone and Mute. On higher lv, the job will branching into Sorcerer and Sage. Sorcerer gains better debuff and buff ability, such as negating incoming damage for 8 hits and increasing overall defense, while Sage relies on debuffing enemies and finish them off with non-elemental AOE magics. Sages also capable to create elemental scrolls that can be used by anyone.

- Shaman is your nuker. Has various elemental AOE ATK to kill many enemies in one spell. On higher lv, the job will branching into Elementalist and Enchanter. Elementalist focus on nuke magic, utilizing buffs that doubles the damage of elemental magic, while Enchanter covers the party with elemental shields and several debilitating AOE magic.

- Vates is your healer. Staple skills like heal and raise are found in this class. On higher level, the job will be branching into Druid and Bard. Druid focuses on keeping the party alive with various buffs and heals, while Bard supports the party with their song and gives status effect to their enemies.

- Warlock is your magic knight. Utilizing knife and dark magics, they focuses on their elemental proficiency to deliver heavy damage to the enemies. On higher lelev, the job will branching into Cabalist and Necromancer. Cabalist relies on dark magic to empower their damage and stats, while Necromancers able to raise undead and summon Shinigami to deliver dark magic damage.

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You can found the rest of the class here: http://emilchronicle.com/wiki/index.php/Job

TL;DR, I just wanna show an example of the balanced job that can be applied into FF XIV, which is should starts by giving one role to one class, not the other way around. The Armoury system is already good system, but SE mess up the skills on each class, by making the class excels in various role. This will proves problem in the future, where staple FF-universe job like Red Mage will never shows up, because the Conjurer already covers it up.

Any rants are welcome.

I think the best solution is to have new weapons usable to each class that fundamently change abilites that can be used by that class. For example, GLA now has access to great swords, when you equip a great sword while still a class your skills are changed.Phalanx becomes parry based, rampart becomes like last resort, sentinel becomes something like Souleater, shield bash becomes weapon bash, all the TP moves can stay the same with a new animation for the GS. And then when you equip a job, like pld, the tanking moves are brought back to whats best for PLD and you can use that GS.

/equip head "Onion Helmet"


All we need for the Onion class is a Onion Sword, Onion gloves, Onion boots and Onion rings!
(see what I did there?) :cool:


"I R Onion Knight"!

lol!

Great ideas guys, lets come out with revamping ideas for a game that they're already done making and touching up the cover art on.

It may be the best idea in the world but at this stage in the game you have better luck getting XIV cancelled.

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Originally Posted by TaalAzura

But why would you prefer having 7 classes that you don't play?

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I keep gear on me for all 3 of my classes and jobs (and all my crafts :3). Needless to say my inv is packed in the current system, but I would rather have the option to play as a class if the need arises.

From what I understand..

The Onion Knight will have a wide variety of weapons, and will have different abilities for each of the weapons (GW2 much? :P).

Onion Mage will obviously have different spells depending on what they have equipped.

Then when you hit a certain level (Would be nicer if it was more 10 - 15) you can then do any quest for any job soul.

And then you can freely change between souls whenever you want -- souls limiting what you can equip into a class.

If anything maybe you could just keep the system the way it is, and scrap all of the classes and just keep the jobs.. and use Onion Knight for the non-magic, and Onion Mage for the magic and base the system from that?

Idk.

Just ideas. The game is fine either way.