Rework Viper

Title says it all

Not even sure who this job is for. If a job is from the mainline series, PvP is pretty good at capturing the essence of that job as seen in other games. Knight/Paladin has a form of Cover, dragoons jump, monks have a powerful counterattack and high HP. If it's FFXIV original, or has a theming unique to this game, they usually bring in the lore or fantasy to make something unique. Scholar doesn't have a strong flavour in the mainline games, but it's a job with incredible buffs and debuffs to fulfill a strategist kind of image. So on and so forth.

Snake Scales as a focus is so strange. In PvE viper is literally the least defensive melee job in the game, sharing a place with DRG for having no unique mitigation or dedicated heals outside of role skills. The "viper" part of the job, a venom, was taken out a week within DT coming out. In their lore, they are these amazing hunters of beasts. I don't know, nothing there really screams "defensive stalling job". It's not OP, it's not UP. It's just annoying. Any time people run it in tournaments, it's just stall play that makes the matches longer and less active.

If they do anything, figure it would really lean into that hunter fantasy... Traps, bolas, being able to tether an enemy to them, sleep (the style BLM used to have), or at least fulfill the rogue prowler kind of image. Anything besides stalling.

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Originally Posted by Raesha

Title says it all

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You mean, because the class is broken in the lower ranks in CC and everyone attacks the VPR while he uses scales on the crystal?

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Originally Posted by Esmoire

If they do anything, figure it would really lean into that hunter fantasy... Traps, bolas, being able to tether an enemy to them, sleep (the style BLM used to have), or at least fulfill the rogue prowler kind of image. Anything besides stalling.

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I think I touched upon a conflict of theme a long time ago during its first iteration when barely anyone played it. That yeah it was weird that it has a long-form parry-ish focus with Snake Scales in PvP, when it's so flimsy in PvE. Then again it is sort of flimsy as a presence in PvE too, like what is it? Oooh it's the dude that does that ineffective-irl-but-cool-in-an-imaginary-context-dual-wielding-sword-thing like that Kirito guy in SAO ooh ooh! With a smidge of Zidane, what with the double-saber form (and vaguely the "Trance"). But otherwise..?

It's a tough place to be, to not have any observable hard-coded theme. Why does it have an almost hungering approach with the leeching and stuff that I would imagine RPR having more of? (Well I guess it has more of it now but it was added in later). It's a headhunter only in the aspect that it does mostly raw damage with no frills. And aura. I don't mean the blue aura. Just anime aura. Maybe the guard-bypassing is supposed to give an aura of badass or something too because "unstoppable" vibes idk (when that could've been a venom aspect...)

It's like... it would have to be a totally different job in PvP to fulfil that jungle slayer of beasts thing it has going on (apparently) lore-wise. The only thing that channels that energy is when it springs an LB out of Backlash for the big damage and snare to be quite honest, that's the only time I feel it's like a pouncing jaguar or something lol. It's disappointing because I really wouldn't mind to play the, yeah, prowling hunter sort that's more in your face and feisty over NIN but with that touch of trip-up big game hunting tech. Job theme is a rather important aspect for me. Even in PvP.

It works mechanically but it's just... so random. It's confused stylistically.

Yes please. Rework this job broken beyond measure. 60% damage reduction plus 50% extra when using Snake Scales? 4k barrier that when broken unleashes an AoE with same range as a Macrocosmos and 100% lifeleech? And it can be recast again using Rattling Coil, which also can pretty much be recast whenever the vpr gets a kill or an assist? I get that when first introduced the job was lackluster but now is just a pain to deal with them, they don't really have counters and they just stall and stall and make the match a drag.

The "just use RPR or DNC lb bro" excuse doesn't work if you need to use a limit break to counter a single job, it's simply unbalanced.

a lot of the issue is probably my current scenario, i pvp a bunch and saw viper as a complete braindead crutch class that gets too much value out of doing nothing. So i never played it on purpose. So i dont know the tooltip info on the class, i just roll my eyes when 1 is in my match and attack anything else until we can focus it down before it does that stupid samurai stance and nobody on my team gets to play until its over.

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Originally Posted by UseYour

a lot of the issue is probably my current scenario, i pvp a bunch and saw viper as a complete braindead crutch class that gets too much value out of doing nothing. So i never played it on purpose.

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One question I would have for you is:
What would you consider 'useful'?

I'm not quite sure where the description that it does 'nothing' comes from? Personally, I feel it just shows poor knowledge at best.
Obviously, it does depend on how the class is used: if the VPR player is simply sitting back throwing AoEs, then yes, I'd agree they're not using the class to it's full potential and are being pretty useless. But then the same could be said for any class where the user has no idea what they’re doing.

VPR can be used defensively, stalling an enemy team who is incoming to flank, buying escape time for your team who are asleep and unaware of the incoming danger.
VPR can be used to try to stall an enemy from taking an objective that could hand them the win, which your team may have (again) been too slow to notice and react to.
It can be used offensively, leading a push and tanking large amounts of damage for your team to utilise to burst the enemy down.

Given I prefer FL over CC, my answers are far more tailored towards that, but the distinction between the two is pretty important. Far too many are quick to condemn classes as 'useless' or 'braindead' without having tried it themselves. Having played all classes, for me, the biggest 'braindead' classes are those like SMN, where you're stood at a perfectly safe distance just spamming AoEs with little to think about beyond trying to coordinate your damage with the rest of your team. But that's not to say it's useless - every class has it's uses.

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just roll my eyes when 1 is in my match and attack anything else until we can focus it down before it does that stupid samurai stance and nobody on my team gets to play until its over.

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And this is likely where you're going wrong. VPR thrives on an uncoordinated enemy team - part of the reason why it does so well in typical FLs.

If you choose the 'ignore' approach, you're heavily relying on the rest of your team to do the same. The VPR will still deal damage, but in the lower and smaller-ranged form of Backlash. That said, the damage requirement to upgrade the skill isn't much, so it would only take a couple of your team to continue attacking them and your attempt to ignore them has just been a waste of time.

Or, you go all in and focus them down quickly. If a full team is focusing them down, even with BH and Scales, a VPR will crumple just as any other class would. Not only this, but if any of your team did elect to use an LB to counter them or a cc/kb to hinder their escape, you will have made the use of it - rather than it being wasted.
True, there can be some additional challenges if they get close team support (Bravery / PLD cover etc.) but, even then, they're not invincible.

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Originally Posted by Zeovalguar

Yes please. Rework this job broken beyond measure. 60% damage reduction plus 50% extra when using Snake Scales? 4k barrier that when broken unleashes an AoE with same range as a Macrocosmos and 100% lifeleech? And it can be recast again using Rattling Coil, which also can pretty much be recast whenever the vpr gets a kill or an assist?

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Again, my response will be largely focused on FL, rather than CC:

The recent HP regain from LB in addition to the Bloodbath updates has certainly given VPR a huge boost and it was already a pretty good class. That said, changes would need to be made somewhat cautiously to avoid pushing it into the realms of DRK nerfs, where the class needs a lot of hand-holding to make it viable.

The class design basically rewards anyone willing to take the lead and push on the frontlines - a role that 90% of the FL playerbase outright refuse to do. As such, a large proportion of VPR players are FL regulars, which may give a slightly skewed view of the class - those players will be very good at whatever class they play, so some of VPRs apparent strength will be partially due to player ability/experience.

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I get that when first introduced the job was lackluster but now is just a pain to deal with them, they don't really have counters and they just stall and stall and make the match a drag.

The "just use RPR or DNC lb bro" excuse doesn't work if you need to use a limit break to counter a single job, it's simply unbalanced.

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Just focus it down, and you don't really need a counter if it's just a typical solo VPR. Part of the issue, as I mentioned in my post above, is that teams are usually split on how to manage it.

That said, if you did find that your team were having difficulties taking down a VPR, there's various things to try to help take them down:

MNK LB or RPR LB can be very helpful to cancel scales, especially given they both have quite short CD times. I feel that DNC LB just for a VPR would be a huge waste, though.

But LBs aren't the only option. Rust and Lethargy are also pretty good, reducing their damage dealt, reducing their HP regain, and slowing their escape.
Silences as they jump in before they get chance to apply scales. Diabrosis and Biolysis, both reducing the VPRs self healing.
There's many combinations, many options beyond pure damage, if only players put some thought into the skills they use rather than blindly smashing the keyboard.

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Originally Posted by Scintilla

Just focus it down, and you don't really need a counter if it's just a typical solo VPR. Part of the issue, as I mentioned in my post above, is that teams are usually split on how to manage it.

That said, if you did find that your team were having difficulties taking down a VPR, there's various things to try to help take them down:

MNK LB or RPR LB can be very helpful to cancel scales, especially given they both have quite short CD times. I feel that DNC LB just for a VPR would be a huge waste, though.

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There's also another snake scales counter that costs 0 resources, and doesn't require the use of a LB.

It's called walking away from the VPR. There is even four seconds to do so! Can even toggle sprint to move away faster!

Not only will the VPR do a lot less damage as a result, they'll heal for even less and will have to expend a dash to make sure their backlash will connect which gives you a second to use any kind of CC during their dash animation! Now they're out of position too!

If it's a lone VPR that doesn't have his alliance backing him up, then dunk on them.

VPR is like the least threatening job.

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Originally Posted by MisterNublet

There's also another snake scales counter that costs 0 resources, and doesn't require the use of a LB.

It's called walking away from the VPR. There is even four seconds to do so! Can even toggle sprint to move away faster!

Not only will the VPR do a lot less damage as a result, they'll heal for even less and will have to expend a dash to make sure their backlash will connect which gives you a second to use any kind of CC during their dash animation! Now they're out of position too!

If it's a lone VPR that doesn't have his alliance backing him up, then dunk on them.

VPR is like the least threatening job.

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Sure, very useful, why didn't I think of that?

Will remember that when we're trying to capture a node and a VPR approaches us. Let's all just run away and let them capture the nodes instead. Peak gameplay.

VPR not having a "shed skin" personal mit on release is wild

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Originally Posted by Zeovalguar

Sure, very useful, why didn't I think of that?
Will remember that when we're trying to capture a node and a VPR approaches us. Let's all just run away and let them capture the nodes instead. Peak gameplay.

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So this is about Frontline and not Crystalline Conflict?
Then why are you worrying about Viper when jobs like Dancer are a much bigger priority target?
In large scale group fights, the entire point is to reduce enemy numbers as quickly as possible by focusing weak links first.
That usually means targeting jobs like Bard or Machinist, jobs often played by PvE-oriented players or picking off a Dancer because they’re both threatening and relatively easy to kill.
So what’s the logic behind focus-firing a Viper that clearly isn’t outputting enough damage to justify being your primary target?

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Originally Posted by Zeovalguar

Sure, very useful, why didn't I think of that?

Will remember that when we're trying to capture a node and a VPR approaches us. Let's all just run away and let them capture the nodes instead. Peak gameplay.

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Let's be real here. Y'all never actually bothered to fight to capture nodes before any of this. VPR is just the new excuse.

I see how a majority of y'all play on Onsal, Worqor, and Seize, spending the entire match chasing rank B nodes and avoiding PvP when you can. Y'all definitely don't fight over nodes on Secure and run away to play ping-pong with uncontested nodes. Shatter.... lol.

Even then, how is VPR capturing any nodes that requires clicking when they're AFK channeling scales for 4 seconds? Even if it isn't the VPR, what are y'all doing while the BH0 bard behind them is capturing the node? Staring at the VPR for four seconds? DRK (and DNC) have better kits to stop you from advancing to block a capture than a VPR does.