Battle High in Frontline

The reduction of Battle High has been removed since last patch.

This change ruined Frontlines pretty much.

Please consider adding it back. The whole match is now being dominated early on by simply nuking both sides. If coordinated well via Commander, it can lead to instant winning matches. It's simply impossible to win against the leading force, or even gain BH at all. Thx.

Are you tired of seeing GNB and VPR every match? Kek

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Originally Posted by MayuAmakura

Are you tired of seeing GNB and VPR every match? Kek

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If I can deal with an entire army of Bards, Machinists, and White Mages, then I honestly don’t see the issue.
Drop a countdown macro, coordinate a Meteor Drive the marked target, and the team can still secure kills just fine.
It’s whether people are willing to follow calls and focus targets.
I just need teammates who stop whining, stop arguing in chat, and actually hit the target that’s marked.

I honestly hate using my RPR/MNK LB on VPR's 30 second, resetting CD. There is no reason GNB and VPR should be at 55/60% damage reduction. I could make an argument for GNB being at 45% with how much healing, DR, and innate movement speed of its kit. At least before the patch it meant losing their BH5. Now they come back to the fight before my LB is even back up.

I would remove BH entirely, and add instead a timed small buff when you get a kill, and a smaller one when you get an assist, but can't be refreshed if you get another kill/assist when having it to avoid the same issue as BH. But that's not the main issue, is also the premades and the couch commanders guiding the match like it's some kind of high-stakes e-sports tournament. And most of the players that just join for the rewards and don't care about following or anything.

Actually is just FF's pvp being the worst one ever now I think of it.

We've heard your feedback and after careful consideration we will be giving Rampart a 2nd charge, and also a lifesteal effect to GNB's LB.

Frontlines have felt so miserable to me in Dawntrail.

Everyone does too much damage, there's too much ranged & tank stacking, and you're typically already dead anytime you try to use guard

I really think it should just be removed altogether. PvP should be down to the players skill IMO, not down to whoever managed to stack BH first.

I DO like not losing it when I die, though, but then I queue solo and it is not really changing my matches all that much, it’s still mostly 3 teams of bad who spend more time arguing than fighting, many of whom still cannot manage to get BH5 throughout a match.

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Originally Posted by Zeovalguar

I would remove BH entirely, and add instead a timed small buff when you get a kill, and a smaller one when you get an assist, but can't be refreshed if you get another kill/assist when having it to avoid the same issue as BH. But that's not the main issue, is also the premades and the couch commanders guiding the match like it's some kind of high-stakes e-sports tournament. And most of the players that just join for the rewards and don't care about following or anything.

Actually is just FF's pvp being the worst one ever now I think of it.

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Some peeps just want to win regardless of the stakes, it's as simple as that. Be worried when that desire to win crosses over into underground stuff... but outside of that, not much you can do about personalities. Those or the "I'm here for participation rewards stfu" ones.

I'm not sure though, is it really that different from some other MMOs with PvP in it right now? In GW2 last I was playing, and then by proxy, has had WvWvW devolve into essentially the same thing you see here. Imo worse. When I see those bot-players huddle with the mark, spamming their boons on rote, and with that breathing down the neck orgy-like proximity it-... gives me the ick. It really does. They won't move unless the mark moves, even just slightly. It's just really creepy to me. It's like only the commander gets to play with any conscious thought.

It's such a contrast to when I actively played, and I was in what you could consider a tryhard alliance then (that dominated the US in earlier states of the game). I was the scout party leader for my individual guild, but sometimes it would be just myself performing those duties. There was real application for those sorts of smaller bands, while the main forces slugged it out at the bigger keeps.

Now a lot of those side objectives seem to be a whatever thing, while the rest is just "join up with your local kitten-branded and mush ye dogs" and it'll all be taken care of by that clump. Solo'ing has no cause, they're just considered pointless rats out to make a nuisance of themselves (or hardcore grief) with no direct bearing on the overall effort. At least in FFXIV I'm reducing points, sometimes quite meaningfully lol.

I'd like to say... making a FL mode that's more like that WvWvW (just having more objectives to tackle, so like RW I guess), and thus like some dusty concept art that existed for this game would be swell, but then, will it or won't it just end up more like that? That'd be a shame.

~~~

As for the OT, yeah, I would want to see it reverted. Don't like this lack of punishment for being too ballsy, and then also the instant respawning. Depending on where the clash is taking place that lack of downtime AND the not losing BH makes priority target takedowns feel rather hollow. It sucks, sorta.

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Originally Posted by Zeovalguar

And most of the players that just join for the rewards and don't care about following or anything.

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This is the issue ^

The 'couch commanders' are just PvP enjoyers who have become tired of getting stuck in game after game of an uncoordinated, passive rabble of 'teammates', most of whom have a very basic knowledge of FL at best and many of which don't seem to see why they should put any effort into a duty that they queued for. They're just trying to bring some sense of coordination to the team in the hope of maybe scraping the win. Unfortunately, despite their efforts to help, they're usually met with totally unwarranted abuse from the very team they're seeking to support.

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Originally Posted by Deccado

I really think it should just be removed altogether. PvP should be down to the players skill IMO, not down to whoever managed to stack BH first.

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Whilst the sentiment is good, in practice, it would only lead to further PvP avoidance.

Currently, BH acts as an incentive to engage in PvP - if you do, you get rewarded with a buff, if you don't you're going to really struggle later down the line. While it shouldn't be the case that people need an incentive to PvP in a PvP duty, if BH is removed altogether, more players will default to the already huge issue of PvP-avoidance, objective-focus. The argument will quickly become that PvP should be actively avoided because it contributes little and only risks losing points, making the whole duty nothing more than an objective-farming simulator.

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Originally Posted by Deccado

I really think it should just be removed altogether. PvP should be down to the players skill IMO, not down to whoever managed to stack BH first.
I DO like not losing it when I die, though, but then I queue solo and it is not really changing my matches all that much, it’s still mostly 3 teams of bad who spend more time arguing than fighting, many of whom still cannot manage to get BH5 throughout a match.

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I will be straightforward.
Without Battle High, PvE rouletters and casual players who only queue for rewards are even less likely to secure kills.
They will just end up getting farmed harder.

ARR Frontline already proved this with the old Battle Fever system.
Back then, assists didn’t contribute toward Battle Fever, which meant the players consistently getting kills are usually experienced PvPers
They were the only ones stacking it and snowballing the match.
Veteran players are going to secure kills either way.
You are not realistically stopping that.
Battle High at least gives less experienced players a way to push back through numbers and assists instead of making kills entirely exclusive to the strongest players in the match.

Getting more points and Battle High for taking down someone with hogh Battle High is something I have been wanting, but not the no battle high lost. Would make it worthwhile to take down players with battle high instead of going after the small fry.

In general, I don't think the main issue is duty design - though there are definitely adjustments that could be made here and there (Worqor design, especially). The main issue seems to be the community attitude towards PvP.

PvP isn't for everyone, sure, and there will always be some who see it as too much to ask for for them to make an effort in a duty they themselves signed up for. But I don't think the game does anything to support players entering PvP for the first time.

Firstly, the game almost sets it up as an irrelevant side-quest; The quests to unlock Wolves Den Pier access, CC, and FL are all individual side-quests within a sea of other side-quests in the starting cities. Not only can these be easily overlooked by new players who are just joining the community and overwhelmed by the flood of quests available, but even when unlocked, there is minimal explanation of what they've just unlocked.
The few official guides to PvP are all online, requiring players to go away and look for them themselves. There is no 'Hall of Novice' type training to assist anyone wanting to get to grips with the basics of PvP but not sure where to start.

So, when new players do queue, they'll look to just follow the crowd, assuming the other players all know what they're doing - in reality, the crowd have no idea either.
Because they've no clue of how to PvP, objectives become the only part they develop some understanding of, so FL roulettes become a spam of blindly running to whatever objective spawns first/closest/highest value, with zero consideration of other factors such as score or positioning. When it all goes wrong because they've handed the win to first place by giving them an A-rank uncontested to fight 3rd place for an S-rank, or because they've placed themselves in a prime position to get flanked by an enemy team, or they've not bothered to get the BH to fight back and defend later in the game, the general response is "it's only PvP, who cares anyway?". A dismissive response that then gets adopted by incoming players.

Most players just become mindless sheep in FLs, leading themselves into obvious danger at the lure of an objective and getting angry when a veteran player warns them that that's not a good idea and tries to lead them differently. The anger quickly turns into the dismissive "who cares anyway? It's only PvP not that deep" when it's proved that the veteran's warning was actually correct.

SE keeps trying to alter the game design (like BH, respawn timers, etc.) to try to encourage PvP and make casuals feel less apprehensive of actually engaging in FLs, but it leads to nothing but whining of unfairness from the very players it's supposed to support because the core issue isn't so much duty design, but the players themselves. All starting from that initial unlocking of PvP duties

I had a match in Fields of Glory, where Flames nuked both Mael and Serpents. It just wasnt possible to fight Flames, the entire team was stacked on BH.
Ofcourse there is a possibility, that Mael was full of bots or players not really caring about engagement. But the match was simply not fun. There was no turnover checkpoint. The match ended after 5min.

It doesnt matter if people only want their quick rewards. Frontlines was not perfect, but it was at least playable pre BH change. If you want quick gains, go spam CC.

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Originally Posted by xbahax92

It doesnt matter if people only want their quick rewards.

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It does matter. Very much.

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Originally Posted by xbahax92

I had a match in Fields of Glory, where Flames nuked both Mael and Serpents. It just wasnt possible to fight Flames, the entire team was stacked on BH.

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If they're dominating as much as you say, whether it is the old or new BH system would be irrelevant. There is clearly an immense skill difference between the teams, leading one to have full control of the game. Even with the old BH system, it would remain exactly the same. In fact, under the old BH system, they would have gained that BH even faster, as the new system rewards less BH for their kills (you only being BH0).

So the issue in this scenario isn't the BH change, it's a huge skill difference between the teams.

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Originally Posted by xbahax92

Frontlines was not perfect, but it was at least playable pre BH change.

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It is still playable now.

SE makes changes > players complain that they're losing because of those changes and the system was better before > new changes are made > players complain again that these changes are causing them to lose.

Again and again the blame is pushed from one thing to another, rather than waking up and admitting the reality of what the true issue is: the players.

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Originally Posted by xbahax92

If you want quick gains, go spam CC.

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Personally, I like full-time, close games.

If you want exp, go spam PvE.

Pretty sure a team doing literally double the damage of another is going to stomp no matter what. Especially since you can no longer remove said buff in the first place.

Battle high is at least playable when you can remove it from a player, but it's still a bad concept. Getting more points from actually pvping is good instead of the pve slogfest for 20 minutes.

But with battle high being unable to be removed it's become a joke. Hopefully the guy actually doing this doesn't have changes as braindead as this in pve, but I guess we'll find out the hard way together won't we?

A coordinated/competent team will get bh5 consistently no matter how many times you kill them. Can it be said about your team though?
You wipe a leading team once and the very next time you see them they are full bh5 again. With the changes at least you cannot bully a random team into not having any bh, wouldn't you complain that your team gets wiped repeatedly to the point it can't recover ?

l actually find it much more fun to play. one reason l liked rw a lot more than fl is due to the fact l don't lose stacks. l actually don't mind it changes back. doesn't change the main thing l want from fl

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Originally Posted by MayuAmakura

Are you tired of seeing GNB and VPR every match? Kek

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I really wish I could watch the gameplay of people who complain about GNB and VPR in FLs.

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Originally Posted by Ilisidi

Getting more points and Battle High for taking down someone with hogh Battle High is something I have been wanting, but not the no battle high lost. Would make it worthwhile to take down players with battle high instead of going after the small fry.

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that was the issue at hand, it didn't stop the gank fest from happening before the change, 2nd or 1st would either steamroll last place for points to get battle irregardless. SE needs to adjust it where the death results in more point loss depending on BH rank and less to the very minimum points to those with little to no BH.

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Originally Posted by Matchoutch

A coordinated/competent team will get bh5 consistently no matter how many times you kill them. Can it be said about your team though?
You wipe a leading team once and the very next time you see them they are full bh5 again. With the changes at least you cannot bully a random team into not having any bh, wouldn't you complain that your team gets wiped repeatedly to the point it can't recover ?

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The only reason your team keeps getting cornered is because it’s filled with PvE rouletters wasting precious time chasing PvE objectives instead of controlling fights.
The meta has changed.
Time to update your firmware.
The first 10 minutes are basically pure PvP now.
Objectives only start becoming a major factor during the later half of the match.
That old “let them fight” mentality never truly worked.
It was just something PvE rouletters kept clinging to throughout the previous patch because they didn’t want to adapt to actual PvP pressure.
This patch?
That playstyle is dead.
Buried, nailed shut, and thrown a hundred feet underground.

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Originally Posted by Enjuden

Pretty sure a team doing literally double the damage of another is going to stomp no matter what. Especially since you can no longer remove said buff in the first place.
Battle high is at least playable when you can remove it from a player, but it's still a bad concept. Getting more points from actually pvping is good instead of the pve slogfest for 20 minutes.
But with battle high being unable to be removed it's become a joke. Hopefully the guy actually doing this doesn't have changes as braindead as this in pve, but I guess we'll find out the hard way together won't we?

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Same here, the meta has clearly changed.
Any team wasting the first 10 minutes chasing PvE objectives is basically self selecting for 3rd place at this point.
I played another 7 matches today, and I still haven’t seen a single completely one sided stomp match yet.
Honestly, I would say Primal adapted to the new meta pretty quickly.

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

The only reason your team keeps getting cornered is because it’s filled with PvE rouletters wasting precious time chasing PvE objectives instead of controlling fights.
The meta has changed.
Time to update your firmware.
The first 10 minutes are basically pure PvP now.
Objectives only start becoming a major factor during the later half of the match.
That old “let them fight” mentality never truly worked.
It was just something PvE rouletters kept clinging to throughout the previous patch because they didn’t want to adapt to actual PvP pressure.
This patch?
That playstyle is dead.
Buried, nailed shut, and thrown a hundred feet underground.

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Surely a team doesn't get hard focused because of any other reasons (sometimes even without reason as you can be second place and the third place goes out of their way to attack your team), surely.

You've read my example as if I was talking about a team that was afk all match long, you do pure pvp half of the match, then you get hard focused, you lose half of your score, and you no longer have bh while the two other teams are still at your doors (with now bh5). Alright then go ahead and kill all those bh5 with your bh1-2.

So, if I understand your "first 10 minutes are basically pure PVP now" correctly, the bh changes are good since you can just go even on your own and get a few last hits on players to steal bh and more often than not some players might even follow.

I'm not sure why you're saying that the meta has changed though, the meta always was to get bh as fast as possible, it did not change and hopefully never will.

There isn't really any new meta, always has been fight the enemy teams aggressively and control territory. You only need one casual behind to capture nodes under your umbrella.

https://i.imgur.com/DmKtnGh.jpeg

Let them fight worked before they increased movement speed in pvp. You couldn't disengage move across the map and farm the first place team fast enough. Now that you can basically be at any point on the map in seconds. has changed that. In HW's you could not cross the whole map of seal rock before objectives spawned, on shatter you could solo small ice for 50 points by being over on that side of map before anyone else could get there. Lets not pretend like there wasn't a reason people played the pve version on frontlines at one time it worked.

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Originally Posted by Moonlite

Let them fight worked before they increased movement speed in pvp. You couldn't disengage move across the map and farm the first place team fast enough. Now that you can basically be at any point on the map in seconds. has changed that. In HW's you could not cross the whole map of seal rock before objectives spawned, on shatter you could solo small ice for 50 points by being over on that side of map before anyone else could get there. Lets not pretend like there wasn't a reason people played the pve version on frontlines at one time it worked.

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The complete lack of logic in this post just baffles me...

1. It's a PvP duty. There is zero excuse for refusing to PvP in a PvP duty. If you queue for it, you do it. Plain and simple.
If I were to queue for a PvE duty and refuse to use any skills, resorting only to basic attack, I would be kicked without hesitation for griefing. Yet players think this same lack of effort is perfectly acceptable in PvP?

2. You're going back 10-years in your example. Believe it or not, but things change a lot over the space of 10-years! To apply your excuses to a PvE scenario:

In the Crystal Tower alliance raids, multiple stack markers are gathered together and stacked. It worked back then, right? Now go and try the same thing in pretty much any other duty and see where it gets you. :o

Funnily enough, players are perfectly able to adapt to these changes when it comes to PvE. There's no difference to adapting in PvP - the only contrast being a lack of player effort.

There is zero excuse for what is very obviously poor, passive play and a 'who cares?' attitude.

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Originally Posted by Valence

There isn't really any new meta, always has been fight the enemy teams aggressively and control territory. You only need one casual behind to capture nodes under your umbrella.

https://i.imgur.com/DmKtnGh.jpeg

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The Frontline meta has definitely changed because the balance between PvE objectives and PvP pressure shifted heavily in Patch 7.5.

Before 7.5:
Battle High functioned more like a snowball reward system that could still be reset by killing strong players.
The core combat logic revolved around preserving Battle Highh.
Match pacing punished overextension, rewarded coordinated bursts, and created constant momentum swings between the three GC
Winning alliances usually succeeded by building early Battle High advantages and protecting their BH4/BH5 players.
At the same time, coordinated teams actively hunted enemy high BH targets because wiping a stacked alliance could completely swing the match.
Strong players were valuable but killable.
Eliminating them weakened the enemy alliance significantly.

After 7.5:
Battle High effectively became a permanent scaling system that heavily rewards nonstop aggression.
Since death no longer removes BH, aggressive players lose far less momentum, and reckless engages are much less punishable than before.
The entire incentive structure shifted toward constant fighting, sustained pressure, and farming BH as quickly as possible.

The immediate visible impact is pretty obvious:
If your alliance spends the first 10 minutes hard focusing PvE objectives, you’re basically defaulting yourself into a losing position.
The patch also made weak links far easier to identify. Players who are leeching, AFKing, botting, or refusing to engage stand out immediately because the new pacing rewards active participation much more heavily than before.

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Originally Posted by Matchoutch

So, if I understand your "first 10 minutes are basically pure PVP now" correctly, the bh changes are good since you can just go even on your own and get a few last hits on players to steal bh and more often than not some players might even follow.
I'm not sure why you're saying that the meta has changed though, the meta always was to get bh as fast as possible, it did not change and hopefully never will.

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Read my previous post.
It already answers your question.
If your alliance spends the first 10 minutes hard focusing PvE objectives, you’re basically defaulting yourself into a losing position.
Patch 7.5 heavily rewards nonstop PvP aggression, and the new changes actually do help mediocre players establish a stronger presence against experienced players.
But like a double edged sword, it also makes weak links far easier to identify: people who AFK, leech, bot, or refuse to participate stand out immediately now.

And honestly, for players on the GC sitting in 2nd place and behind in Battle High, of course they going to prey on the 3rd place GC if they visibly look PvE-oriented.
They are going to farm them for kills and assists to build enough Battle High before taking a real fight against the 1st place GC.
That’s just how the current meta works.

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Originally Posted by Moonlite

Let them fight worked before they increased movement speed in pvp. You couldn't disengage move across the map and farm the first place team fast enough. Now that you can basically be at any point on the map in seconds. has changed that. In HW's you could not cross the whole map of seal rock before objectives spawned, on shatter you could solo small ice for 50 points by being over on that side of map before anyone else could get there. Lets not pretend like there wasn't a reason people played the pve version on frontlines at one time it worked.

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That’s a very outdated way of thinking that dates all the way back to the old Battle Fever system in ARR.
The mentality only survived through the 3.x era and onward because PvE players needed something to cling to in Frontline without fully engaging with the PvP side of the mode.

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Originally Posted by MisterNublet

I really wish I could watch the gameplay of people who complain about GNB and VPR in FLs.

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Going offtopic. Here, feel free to browse my youtube channel, I would suggest going from Popular videos:
https://www.youtube.com/@feedmetofu

Viper Rework:
-55% Damage Taken -5% Damage Dealt (5% decrease on both)

Gunbreaker Rework:
-50% Damage Taken (5% decrease is enough)

Bravery Rework:
Increases damage dealt by 25%, and reduces damage taken by 25%.
Potency is halved when cast on other players OR Cannot be cast on other players
(synergy is good, we need to encourage it, so i'd rather it be halved at first)

Back on topic: BH change

I already said during 7.5 discussion that I don't like BH change. My biggest problem with it is that it makes the mode simpler and so it's more boring.
I also think that EXP/Tome reward scaling should go off BH at the end of the match - there is no excuse not to have BH5 every game.


[edit]
With % change I am just going by feel, after playing both classes a little bit - by no means an expert on them. Gunbreaker will still be tanky, but wouldn't stand out from other tanks as much. I am not fully sure on decrease damage dealt on viper, but damage taken needs to be reeled in. I think the class would still feel good with minor nerfs, and take the edge off. Bravery pocketing will still happen, but it would just be a bit less obnoxious.

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

The Frontline meta has definitely changed because the balance between PvE objectives and PvP pressure shifted heavily in Patch 7.5.

Before 7.5:
Battle High functioned more like a snowball reward system that could still be reset by killing strong players.
The core combat logic revolved around preserving Battle Highh.
Match pacing punished overextension, rewarded coordinated bursts, and created constant momentum swings between the three GC
Winning alliances usually succeeded by building early Battle High advantages and protecting their BH4/BH5 players.
At the same time, coordinated teams actively hunted enemy high BH targets because wiping a stacked alliance could completely swing the match.
Strong players were valuable but killable.
Eliminating them weakened the enemy alliance significantly.

After 7.5:
Battle High effectively became a permanent scaling system that heavily rewards nonstop aggression.
Since death no longer removes BH, aggressive players lose far less momentum, and reckless engages are much less punishable than before.
The entire incentive structure shifted toward constant fighting, sustained pressure, and farming BH as quickly as possible.

The immediate visible impact is pretty obvious:
If your alliance spends the first 10 minutes hard focusing PvE objectives, you’re basically defaulting yourself into a losing position.
The patch also made weak links far easier to identify. Players who are leeching, AFKing, botting, or refusing to engage stand out immediately because the new pacing rewards active participation much more heavily than before.

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That's what I'm saying, there has never been a meta about hard focusing PvE objectives. They just directed loosely toward which teams congregate, but they never informed what teams fought over in terms of meta because it's always been about engaging the enemy and farming BH.

But it's possible we don't have the same definition of meta in mind. I don't disagree that post patch has dramatically changed high BH player behavior since there is no risk anymore, but I don't think it has changed the main principles behind the mode at all.