The Evolved combat is needed

The game has really been suffering over the years from severaly issues, 2 of the big ones are going to be somewhat solved.

1. Slow combat and intro to classes at low level. The 2.5s GCD made it really had for new players to get into this game, most MMO's have a 1.5s GCD, also not having you full rotation until very very late into the game was horrible and being level sync'd 80% of the time felt so horrible, having the new system aim to give full rotation by level 50 is a good step in the right direction.

2. 2m Meta The 2m meta has been the scurge of this game, it was a mistake for them to lean into it as hard as they did in stormblood, it's good to see this is being broken, will lead to more options for unique class mechanics later down the line instead of forcing everyone into a builder burst system. Take Astrologian, was the card game abit over the top originally, maybe, but was it fun, absolutely, didn't work with the 2m meta so they yeeted it and made it a press to buff button ruining the uniqueness of the class. All Drk players look back fondly on heavenward Drk, it was un optimal as hell didn't play well with the 2m meta, do you know what else it was, immensly fun to play.

3. Changing the tanks Off tank and main tank being brought back is great, and by the sounds of it we are going to start seeing abilities that debuff bosses again, like the old, Drk passage on Drks blinding the enemy etc. At the moment tanks feel disjointed and basically just blue DPS.

What I would truely love to see next is the FF14 team lift the LOTRO fellowship manoeuvre system and make that the limit break system. For those not aware the LOTRO fellowship manoeuvre system was a system in the game lord of the rings online where when the enemy is in a stun/stagger state, either through a specific trigger of a mechinc in the fight, a random chance, and one fo the classes that can forcfully put the enemy in this state. When they are in this state every one in the party choices between 4 buttons, red, green, blue, yellow. If everyone presses red, big damage attack, blue mana back, green health, but there was combos like 2 red, 2 blue that did a different attack etc. This would really be good for the limit break system imo to make the whole party feel involved in it and now just a button you know press if you're melee DPS or the healer when things go to crap.

While I agree with some of the people who are negative about the new evolved system in that it looks like it will simplify the jobs. I would argue that, that's exactly what is needed, not because the jobs are currrently too complex, but because of how overbearing 2m meta has been on design over the last few expacs, a big sweeping change was needed. Small incrememental tweaks wouldn't do it, you need to wipe it right back down, go simple break the 2m meta, have a place to build from IMO.

I've been really hard on Dawntrail I quit as soon as I finished MSQ, came back for next patch quit again cause story sucked, I was fully in for not coming back, however the evolved combat fixes a large chunk of the issues in the game. Now if only they would change the movement to have a character hit boxes that interacts with the ground instead of having you character be plane that slides along the surface they would be even further into fixing the games issues (it's not 1990 anymore, this type of movement system is beyond dated)

I think a big part of the issue is that they aren't *just* getting rid of the 2m meta, but they're *over*simplifying the classes. Bard is a support class, that's a huge part of its identity. Which makes sense, that's what bards in RPGs do, they buff and support. So why are the songs on the evolved mode turning it into Summoner 2? That's... That's not a good change.

Give an evolved system that's actually serious about bringing back identity (instead of homogenizing bard into a whatever dps) and reintroducing complexity and rotational thought and agency and I'll stop complaining.

I hate reborn, but I also don't like what evolved served me at Fanfest, the more I can look at it with detachment. It's not good.

I think the litmus test will be SGE specifically. If they make SGE a Healer that focuses on dealing damage, and heals by doing so ala PVP, then Evolved has the potential to be interesting. What I fear, based on what we've seen thus far, is that what they showed for WHM, is what they intend for every Healer. EG, SCH and SGE will be expected to just spam Adlo and Succor (and the SGE equivalents), and they'll be made damage neutral. That sounds boring and uninspired as hell, and the opposite of 'Job individuality'

What they really should have done, is demonstrated TWO of each Role. Show a PLD and a WAR, and how their kits differ from one another, to illustrate why an OT is different to a MT. Show the differences between a WHM and SCH, to show us whether they'll actually BE different, or if they're both going to be focused on 'spam damage neutral Healing GCDs'. Show how a Dragoon's going to be different from a Monk or a Ninja, or a Bard from a Machinist or Dancer, because as it stands, we can reasonably say 'there's a nonzero chance that Bard's rotation will be functionally identical to MCH's, just with different VFX'. It's entirely possible that for MCH, it's the same rotation but instead of Songs activating each 'SMN Lego phase', it's Drill/Air Anchor/Chainsaw. We just don't know yet, and SE could have alleviated that concern but did not

For DPS, it mostly looks like they're going from a full burst every 2 minutes to a much smaller full burst every minute, and I'm concerned for how the "Every man for himself" buff mentality will translate to jobs like DNC. I'm extremely skeptical regarding active counters on tanks with how finicky the networking has always been (and SE's lack of thought towards any regions that are more decentralized than Japan), but healers paint the most dire picture, with most of the reassurances being shit we've heard multiple times before. There are other warning signs for challenge-oriented solo content, like deep dungeons, with them consolidating things like Low Blow and Interject, which have entirely different use cases and are frequently used back-to-back on different targets.

I'm not against changing things since the move to a 2min burst timing was causing all sort of issues, but from what they've shown, I fear Evolved is just going to cause more issues rather than fix.

People keep talking about job identity being back with Evolved, but from what they showed, I don't see it, but I feel its partly because I view job identity differently than how a lot of others do. I don't care about DRG having jumps. XIV is my first FF so I don't care about how a DRG is "supposed" to play. When I think about identity, I think less about aesthetic and more about unique gameplay elements.

I can't speak for before, but when I started playing in ShB, DRG has clear things that were unique to it: Two alternating and long filler combos, 3 different buffs (personal, targeted, raid) with different CDs, the Life of the Dragon system, positionals giving you a powered up GCD.

Now, Evolved DRG is spamming a single button, just like PLD, WHM and BRD. Just like new BRD, it needs 3 stickers to unlock its burst. The only thing left that seems unique to DRG right now are positionals and Sky High. And that's assuming no other melee has positionals, which could very well not be the case. Leaving only Sky High. A button that feels great in PvP, where combat are chaotic and the delay between cast and damage gives some room for opponents to counter play. But in PvE? Sky High is a "do nothing for several seconds" button. There's very little depth to be found in this kit, let alone any unique gameplay flavor.

And considering BRD went from a DoT and Proc focused job to just another timer gauge job, just like the 3 other Evolved jobs showcased, I'm worried everything will be collapsed into that mold. Builder/spenders like RPR and RDM? Gone for timers and stickers. Every job seems to be collapsing into the mold of EW SMN.

Like so far, with what they've shown us, the direction seems to be more homogeneity and less depth, not more uniqueness and skill expression.

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Originally Posted by Valence

Give an evolved system that's actually serious about bringing back identity (instead of homogenizing bard into a whatever dps) and reintroducing complexity and rotational thought and agency and I'll stop complaining.

I hate reborn, but I also don't like what evolved served me at Fanfest, the more I can look at it with detachment. It's not good.

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Make the masses desperate enough for change and they'll accept anything, or something like that.

Like the Dev team has the previous game design documents for Bard when it was super liked in SB, why not look back and integrate it back into play instead of turning it into Red DPS #18?

I don't personally understand why people say bringing PvP into PvE is a good idea, considering both game states are wildly different.

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Originally Posted by Xieldras

I don't personally understand why people say bringing PvP into PvE is a good idea, considering both game states are wildly different.

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100% agreed. PvP and PvE encounters are vastly different context. PvP is chaotic, with unpredictable incoming damage and stop/start fights. This leads to a lot of moment to moment decisions. There's also plenty of room to synergize in PvP context. Like a DRK timing their salted earth just when the AST buffed DRG lands in the middle of the pack.

PvP has great job identity, but its simplified kits only have depth and interesting gameplay consideration in the chaotic context of PvP. If that job design philosophy is just ported to PvE without PvE somehow changing to become just as chaotic and unpredictable, its just gonna lead to a more stale version of PvP.

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Originally Posted by Sarantserel

100% agreed. PvP and PvE encounters are vastly different context. PvP is chaotic, with unpredictable incoming damage and stop/start fights. This leads to a lot of moment to moment decisions. There's also plenty of room to synergize in PvP context. Like a DRK timing their salted earth just when the AST buffed DRG lands in the middle of the pack.

PvP has great job identity, but its simplified kits only have depth and interesting gameplay consideration in the chaotic context of PvP. If that job design philosophy is just ported to PvE without PvE somehow changing to become just as chaotic and unpredictable, its just gonna lead to a more stale version of PvP.

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PLD has a parry now if I remember, and BRD's repel shot is multidirectional. That implies they'll bring that fast-paced chaos into PvE. I personally had trouble with DT's pace and hated it, so my bet is that I'll hate the new one too.
Reminds me of that Elden Ring thread we had here months back since it feels relevant: Is this still the same game genre?

The probem is they aren't just getting rid of the 2 minute meta. By removing raid buffs they are removing any reward that players got for playing in unity as a team which is important for a co-op game. It felt good to sync up buffs and have a nice burst window or in dancers case move dance partner in odd minutes to your VPR for double reawaken and a big dps boost which takes communication. I'm not overly against this going exactly but there needs to be something to replace it otherwise there is no difference between a party that plays well together and one that doesn't and that lowers the skill ceiling and floor even more.

The 2 minute meta is not the source of all evil with job design. A lot of the issues are that high end players want complexity and casuals want a much easier experience and SE doesn't know who to listen to and don't seem to be able to find a middle ground.

Evo mode costing jobs their current identity and skill is a net negative and we shouldn't have easy mode be the default. Bard lost dot management, OGCD management EA is now a follow up to another GCD and cannot be drifted or mismanaged because its just hit the glowing button. Bard also lost ALL RNG a key part of its identity. It was super fun to watch EA coming up with 2 PP procs and decide if you send PP at 2 stacks or less potency or wait for EA for a 3rd proc and risk overcap. Or seeing dot timers running low but you dont want to miss a tick and deciding if you risk another BS that could proc RA and if you do get that RA do you now send it and risk dots falling or hit iron jaws to refresh and risk overriding that proc? Entire fight segments can change based on if you have AABA ready from RNG gauge such as M9s second adds and it was fun. WHM lost casts, OGCD heals and now hits 1111 just like before but now its instant! PLD's new cover is stupid and total murder, its a gimick and not functional.

I've seen a lot of people saying Bard is playable now for example but it's always been playable and some found it great. Jobs shouldn't be dumbed down to try to cater to everyone instead of people accepting not all jobs are for them.

On the topic of tanks the split is stupid. Assuming OT can't take autos like MT or MT will lose damage by not holding threat then OT will 100% do more damage because they aren't meant to hold the boss. This along with the fact that OT will still have personals/invuln to take busters and apparently is focused on party mit compared to MT ahhh why would you ever bring an MT? OT will do more damage with more mit.

The split will make PF harder to fill and once again is another evo change that will rob a job in this case WAR of their current identity that being self heals.

Also say your static has a PLD who doesnt want to change and the other tank wants to play the new tank guess you're out of luck?

Change is needed but this is not quite the way

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Originally Posted by Hanzz96

The probem is they aren't just getting rid of the 2 minute meta. By removing raid buffs they are removing any reward that players got for playing in unity as a team which is important for a co-op game. It felt good to sync up buffs and have a nice burst window or in dancers case move dance partner in odd minutes to your VPR for double reawaken and a big dps boost which takes communication. I'm not overly against this going exactly but there needs to be something to replace it otherwise there is no difference between a party that plays well together and one that doesn't and that lowers the skill ceiling and floor even more.

The 2 minute meta is not the source of all evil with job design. A lot of the issues are that high end players want complexity and casuals want a much easier experience and SE doesn't know who to listen to and don't seem to be able to find a middle ground.

Evo mode costing jobs their current identity and skill is a net negative and we shouldn't have easy mode be the default.

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Let's not pretend for one second that everyone popping a buff button every 2m was unity. It was a rigid forceful way of making players and rotations run.

The 2m meta was the source of a large amount of the hemoginisation of classes in the game, as I pointed out before with the examples of Drk and Asto.

They used to not actually have that many OGCD buffs in the game, in fact most classes had these buffs as part of their moveset, it was only as the 2m meta started to be leaned into and more and more classes had mechanics that lined up with it that it started to really impact the game. There were many classes that were more enjoyable at heavensward before the 2m meta became such a rigid sticking point. From the Stormblood combat rework all class design was done around the 2m meta.

None of the combat mechanics in the current state of the game are complex, with the exception of ninja. I would argue about 20-30% of the classes buttons are just buffs that should be baked into weaponskills and abilities instead of press button to do x more damage for 10s or x amount more mitigation. Nothing they have talked about really feels like an actual reduction in class mechancs in fact I would argue that the dragoon evolved combat is significantly more complex than the current dragoon state. They said the bards going to focus more on procing their music instead of posions which I would argue is significantly more thematic for the class, but again none of these changes have been shown in full yet.

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Originally Posted by Sarantserel

People keep talking about job identity being back with Evolved, but from what they showed, I don't see it, but I feel its partly because I view job identity differently than how a lot of others do. I don't care about DRG having jumps. XIV is my first FF so I don't care about how a DRG is "supposed" to play. When I think about identity, I think less about aesthetic and more about unique gameplay elements.

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Well, that's the first and main issue, and one that most people seem to share. When the design team talks about job identity, that's what they mean. Aesthetics and vibe being distinct. Game mechanics are just whatever happens to come on top. It doesn't matter if Dragoon is a DOTmaster, a tank, a healer, a super burst guy or just a sustain DPS, all that would be irrelevant to the job identity. Dragon themed attacks and big jumps however are the core of dragoon's identity. Same way how Scholar's identity is tied to Tactics and Fairy, Summoner is Egis, BLM is fire-ice rotation, Ninja is ninjutsu, Warrior is being all mad, etc. All those core elements could take whatever gameplay form you wish, the only actually important element of job identity is that they feel naturally integrated into the kit and feel good to use.

Job identity is entirely disconnected from job gameplay in the eyes of the design team, and that was clear as early as half a decade ago. If you are only now realizing that... Sorry for your loss.

Change was needed, but Evolved doesn't feel like much of one, especially if encounter design remains the same.

It could still end up being DDR, only faster and with fewer buttons to pay attention to.

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Originally Posted by Neekolyte

I think a big part of the issue is that they aren't *just* getting rid of the 2m meta, but they're *over*simplifying the classes. Bard is a support class, that's a huge part of its identity. Which makes sense, that's what bards in RPGs do, they buff and support. So why are the songs on the evolved mode turning it into Summoner 2? That's... That's not a good change.

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"So each of these songs grants parties a buff. Regen for the ballad, increased movements for the paean, and barrier for the minuet." They still have utility they just ALSO unlock further skills when you use them. They also aren't simplifying the classes that we've seen so far they're just condensing them and giving them contextual or conditional activation.

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Originally Posted by Malthir

I've been really hard on Dawntrail I quit as soon as I finished MSQ, came back for next patch quit again cause story sucked

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Person who quit because of a bad story thinks the gameplay will make up for it, huh.

Kinda tired of this debate. *Yawn*. Its not done. Its coming whether we want it or not. Even if the jobs are perfect, existing synergy is gone unless they somehow replace it. The team is not going to drop an xpac that is tuned for reborn to fail to clear. You will be able to play Reborn. You will be able to play Evolved. Its just that simple. As with all other job ruining that was ongoing for literal years shows us, our feedback isn't going to change what happens with jobs outside one offs and/or potency adjustments. Resistance is futile and defense is unncessary. We know this from experience.

Not saying feedback is totally useless its just, mostly pretty useless. Healer strike is 1000 pages and how much of that made it into Reborn OR Evolved? None.

Because the problem with healers is not how the healers are designed. It's the battle content. Everything has a set rotation and predictable damage so you know the optimal time to heal and only heal during that time.

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Originally Posted by Xieldras

Make the masses desperate enough for change and they'll accept anything, or something like that.

Like the Dev team has the previous game design documents for Bard when it was super liked in SB, why not look back and integrate it back into play instead of turning it into Red DPS #18?

I don't personally understand why people say bringing PvP into PvE is a good idea, considering both game states are wildly different.

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I actually think bringing PvP into PvE would literally save PvE, but that cannot happen with only changes on the job's side else we just end up playing pvp on dummies, which is incredibly boring (see Shatter).
PvP is engaging because it's not all about spitting out damage on a target that barely interacts while dancing around dodging mechanics totally unrelated to what your job is doing.
PvE would need a serious rework to bring actual variables to its gameplay that do interact with the jobs in meaningful and unique ways.

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Originally Posted by hydralus

Person who quit because of a bad story thinks the gameplay will make up for it, huh.

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Yes because good gameplay can carry a bad story (Why do you think people still play WoW, it's certainly not for that sewage water they call a story) the same way for the last 10 years before dawntrail the good story did alot of heavy lifting for bad gameplay in FF14.
Bad combat purely isn't the only issue FF14 has, personally I feel the following are the big issues the game has for existing and more importantly on boarding new players, in no particular order:

1. Combat,
- 2m meta causing jobs roles to all forced into the same gameplay and mech style ruining class fantasy
- Limit break being functionally a melee dps only button
- Level sync causing you to not have a full rotation, this is boring as hell and players spend most of their time under max level so having a slow and boring combat style is just not enjoyable.
- 2.5s GCD is much longer than standard MMO's so is awkward for new players especially at low levels
- Status effects basically being non existent now.

2. Movement
- As posted above, having the character models not interact with the ground plane is a lazy and dated method of movement, it feels clunky and makes the character and thus the player feel less engaged with the world

3. UI
- The UI frames are poor, it's more reminisent of the deluge of F2P slop mmo's that came out in the mid to late 00's than it has any reason to be
- UI customisation options extremely limited such as poor sizing options and lack on font select

4. Netcode
- This has been discussed to death and has slowly been getting better but we've all been hit by aoe's we were clearly out of on our screens

5. Gameplay in general
- There's a serious lack of overworld gameplay that's not endgame or locked behind MSQ. This is most noticable one a second job play through, you do palace of the dead to get to 30-50 then just sit afk in limsa waiting for instance queues to pop till you can go heaven on high, then do the same till you can go bozja. The game is in serious need of some actual overworld content.
- The MSQ doesn't seem to involved gameplay at all this has been particularly noticable in Dawntrail where it took about 3 hours of cutscene before you did your first, go here and stand in circle then was ambushed by 2 enemies you basically insta kill, then back to reading walls of text. The MSQ story beats need to actually have gameplay in them not just us standing there while people talk then go talk to this person and read people talking to each other, then go there click that and listen to people talk to each other etc etc.

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Originally Posted by Falak

"So each of these songs grants parties a buff. Regen for the ballad, increased movements for the paean, and barrier for the minuet." They still have utility they just ALSO unlock further skills when you use them. They also aren't simplifying the classes that we've seen so far they're just condensing them and giving them contextual or conditional activation.

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Except they aren't? BRD is actively losing utility, tying effects to damage limits use and forces them to be used at awful times because you have to keep the GCD rolling to do anything, and if you are overcapping and not collecting all 3 coda you are trolling by choosing to do less damage (the only thing that matters in this game). If the effects were separate from the songs, sure, but they sure as hell aren't from what we saw.

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Originally Posted by Valence

I actually think bringing PvP into PvE would literally save PvE, but that cannot happen with only changes on the job's side else we just end up playing pvp on dummies, which is incredibly boring (see Shatter).
PvP is engaging because it's not all about spitting out damage on a target that barely interacts while dancing around dodging mechanics totally unrelated to what your job is doing.
PvE would need a serious rework to bring actual variables to its gameplay that do interact with the jobs in meaningful and unique ways.

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That is indeed the problem. In order for evolved mode to work PvE fights need to be faster more chaotic (and honestly the GCD dropped down to at least 1.5 sec if not 1 sec like WoW and GW2). Unfortunately, because Reborn will be sticking around and will be able to complete content too I find this highly unlikely to be something that happens.

I do not think Evolved Mode is really about job identity.

I think it is more about keeping some job flavor.

For example, if we say Dragoon has dragon flavor or directional attacks like flank or rear, Monk also has positionals. So what really separates Monk from Dragoon? Is it only the rotation?

To me, rotation alone is not enough.

This is the same issue with Warrior and Dark Knight. They can end up feeling too similar, with only rotation changes separating them, while the skills and general structure still feel very close.

That is the part that concerns me.

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Originally Posted by BabyYoda

I do not think Evolved Mode is really about job identity.

I think it is more about keeping some job flavor.

For example, if we say Dragoon has dragon flavor or directional attacks like flank or rear, Monk also has positionals. So what really separates Monk from Dragoon? Is it only the rotation?

To me, rotation alone is not enough.

This is the same issue with Warrior and Dark Knight. They can end up feeling too similar, with only rotation changes separating them, while the skills and general structure still feel very close.

That is the part that concerns me.

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I see your point but I don't think positionals define any of the melee's unique flavor, because they all have them. A dragoons flavor is their jumps, a monk their forms, Ninja their mudras, etc. It is yet to be seen how the melees differ from each other but based off of new dragoon they've put more focus on jumps for dragoon, and one even ignores the next positional, similar to true north but just a single action, and they had 3 stacks of it iirc. I agree in not wanting them to all feel all the same but I don't think any of them are going to lose their positionals, melee need something to have to pay attention to. I'm just basing this next point off of how PvP jobs were formed (same dev) but I'm pretty confident that all the jobs will feel pretty unique in how they function and they won't feel too similar while also showcasing more of their flavor and job identity. It's still pretty wait and see but your base concern is also mine, I don't want all the jobs to feel the exact same when playing.

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Originally Posted by HammAndCheese

I see your point but I don't think positionals define any of the melee's unique flavor, because they all have them. A dragoons flavor is their jumps, a monk their forms, Ninja their mudras, etc. It is yet to be seen how the melees differ from each other but based off of new dragoon they've put more focus on jumps for dragoon, and one even ignores the next positional, similar to true north but just a single action, and they had 3 stacks of it iirc. I agree in not wanting them to all feel all the same but I don't think any of them are going to lose their positionals, melee need something to have to pay attention to. I'm just basing this next point off of how PvP jobs were formed (same dev) but I'm pretty confident that all the jobs will feel pretty unique in how they function and they won't feel too similar while also showcasing more of their flavor and job identity. It's still pretty wait and see but your base concern is also mine, I don't want all the jobs to feel the exact same when playing.

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I agree with you that positionals alone do not define melee identity.

Maybe my example was not the clearest. What I meant is that flavor by itself is not enough if the actual gameplay structure still feels too similar.

Dragoon having more focus on jumps is a good direction. Monk having forms and Ninja having mudras are also good examples of job identity when they actually affect how the job plays.

I was also hoping for something deeper around how each melee job interacts with the enemy’s defenses. Not just “all melee have positionals,” but different ways for each job to break or pressure the enemy’s armor/defense in order to activate certain skills or rewards.

That kind of system would make melee identity feel more gameplay-driven, not only based on positionals or visual flavor.

I do not think they showed something like that yet, but maybe we will see more in the next keynote or future job previews.

My concern is mainly when identity becomes only visual or thematic, while the gameplay underneath still feels too close between jobs.

So I agree with your main point. I also do not want all jobs to feel the exact same when playing. I just hope Evolved Mode gives jobs different gameplay logic, not only stronger flavor.

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Originally Posted by StarryVera

Except they aren't? BRD is actively losing utility, tying effects to damage limits use and forces them to be used at awful times because you have to keep the GCD rolling to do anything, and if you are overcapping and not collecting all 3 coda you are trolling by choosing to do less damage (the only thing that matters in this game). If the effects were separate from the songs, sure, but they sure as hell aren't from what we saw.

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I kinda feel like that unfortunately goes back to feed into the excel spreadsheet planning of every savage fight in XIV: find the rotation that works best for a fight and memorize it to death, much like you'd memorize when you use your mitigations, or when you can use your instant casts for uptime.

Boring, but a lot of raiders like this so...

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Originally Posted by Vrankyl

That is indeed the problem. In order for evolved mode to work PvE fights need to be faster more chaotic (and honestly the GCD dropped down to at least 1.5 sec if not 1 sec like WoW and GW2). Unfortunately, because Reborn will be sticking around and will be able to complete content too I find this highly unlikely to be something that happens.

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I don't think they need to get necessarily faster or even more chaotic (even though more randomness would definitely be appreciated). If there is still no variables beyond damage that the jobs can interact with, then it's still gonna result in everything being designed as a hammer to hit the exact same nail on the head.

I don't want to suddenly have the GCD go to spastic levels of carpal tunnel to even emulate some manner of complexity. If people want that they already have jobs on a 2s GCD or less, or jobs literally spamming OGCDs like VPR on top of it. But it doesn't even start addressing the real issues.

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Originally Posted by Valence

I kinda feel like that unfortunately goes back to feed into the excel spreadsheet planning of every savage fight in XIV: find the rotation that works best for a fight and memorize it to death, much like you'd memorize when you use your mitigations, or when you can use your instant casts for uptime.

Boring, but a lot of raiders like this so...



I don't think they need to get necessarily faster or even more chaotic (even though more randomness would definitely be appreciated). If there is still no variables beyond damage that the jobs can interact with, then it's still gonna result in everything being designed as a hammer to hit the exact same nail on the head.

I don't want to suddenly have the GCD go to spastic levels of carpal tunnel to even emulate some manner of complexity. If people want that they already have jobs on a 2s GCD or less, or jobs literally spamming OGCDs like VPR on top of it. But it doesn't even start addressing the real issues.

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A 1 second global cool down is hardly spastic. In fact it is pretty much industry standard. FF14 has always had a pain point of combat being ungodly slow. Iirc the MMO with the next slowest GCD is Runescape at 1.5 seconds. If anything, this is the time to bring FF14 in line with other MMOs.

I am really unsure about Evolved right now. I need to see more jobs within the same role so I can actually compare them. Seeing one MT, one melee DPS, one ranged DPS, and one healer honestly told me really little in terms of how class identity may be helped.

It is simply dumbing down for the Switch.

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Originally Posted by BabyYoda

This is the same issue with Warrior and Dark Knight. They can end up feeling too similar, with only rotation changes separating them, while the skills and general structure still feel very close.

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These two used to feel pretty different from one another, a long time ago. Then SE turned DRK into WAR2, which itself was turned into PLD2 a few patches earlier.

Point is, I'm not entirely convinced that we 'need' Evolved Mode as a system, to have individuality in the Jobs

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Originally Posted by BabyYoda

I agree with you that positionals alone do not define melee identity.

Maybe my example was not the clearest. What I meant is that flavor by itself is not enough if the actual gameplay structure still feels too similar.

Dragoon having more focus on jumps is a good direction. Monk having forms and Ninja having mudras are also good examples of job identity when they actually affect how the job plays.

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This is the important part, they need to actually play differently.
I could not care less how many jumps Dragoon has if they're all just fire-and-forget damage oGCDs. When the only differentiating factor is how the jobs look visually while going through the same motions we have a problem.

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

These two used to feel pretty different from one another, a long time ago. Then SE turned DRK into WAR2, which itself was turned into PLD2 a few patches earlier.

Point is, I'm not entirely convinced that we 'need' Evolved Mode as a system, to have individuality in the Jobs

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I think not even the devs are convinced we "need" Evolved mode, which is one of the two reasons they're keeping the old system around for now.

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Originally Posted by Vrankyl

A 1 second global cool down is hardly spastic. In fact it is pretty much industry standard. FF14 has always had a pain point of combat being ungodly slow. Iirc the MMO with the next slowest GCD is Runescape at 1.5 seconds. If anything, this is the time to bring FF14 in line with other MMOs.

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How do those other games handle OGCDs out of curiosity?

No need to change the GCD to 1.5/1 second, just give some jobs way more abilities to use between GCDs to keep the ADHD fingers busy.

This game needs a change if Evolved is the answer we will see next year.

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Originally Posted by Valence

How do those other games handle OGCDs out of curiosity?

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They don't.

For the longest time WoW actually just had abilities with no animation/ability lock, which is why you could put a lot of damage buff or utility cooldowns into a single macro and make them all go off instantly.
Caused quite a stir when they changed it, because now they occupied space where you previously just spammed damage skills every second.

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Originally Posted by StarryVera

Except they aren't? BRD is actively losing utility, tying effects to damage limits use and forces them to be used at awful times because you have to keep the GCD rolling to do anything, and if you are overcapping and not collecting all 3 coda you are trolling by choosing to do less damage (the only thing that matters in this game). If the effects were separate from the songs, sure, but they sure as hell aren't from what we saw.

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You can use them in any order and each song lasts 20 secs. Seems like on use of the last one they all unlock again. Every minute you have a 15 secs shield, a 15 secs regen, and a 6 secs ms buff. If you can't line that up with damage that's not a design issue.

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Originally Posted by Falak

You can use them in any order and each song lasts 20 secs. Seems like on use of the last one they all unlock again. Every minute you have a 15 secs shield, a 15 secs regen, and a 6 secs ms buff. If you can't line that up with damage that's not a design issue.

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The issue is bard is still losing the wardens paean which is honestly better than Esuna in a lot of cases and make it the ideal pick for fights like TEA and M12s. Nature's Minne was nowhere to be seen and thats a 15% healing buff. Then its losing buffs on top of that.