Evolved Jobs-- Support Tanks?

So far with the dev panel I think everything looked really really interesting. I loved the near mini-LB the DPS got to display and I loved the idea of Parrying on Paladin, but I worry for high ping players being barred from even getting those perfect parries-- and on top of that--

the segregation of support and main tanks in a more 'true' sense is rumbling some unrest. I think they really need to show an example of how small the difference is between an "assigned" MT and ST or it'll cause some friction in pfs at least on predominantly english servers that use NA strats and don't already adopt a "support tank" kind of thing.

Yeah, I do think that having a designated Main Tank and a designated Off Tank could allow for some interesting fight design (and potentially more specialist tank game play moments which tanks have been clamouring for for a long time), but locking the designation by specific job feels like a bad move. It would be better if you could choose or toggle at the start of a duty with the job skills/abilities functioning differently based on what role you choose.

I feel weird about warrior being an off tank when for so long my static had our warrior as MT. I hope the new tank is fun!

I think it's a branding problem. Unlike "pure" and "barrier" healer the mt/ot hierarchy (real or perceived) is not neutral. If the fantasy of "off-tank" is not appealing, war, dark and gnb players are likely to feel like they just got demoted.

Speaking more realistically I don't think it's going to be that much of a problem in gameplay. Fight design this expansion has given both tanks plenty to do. However, a simple rebranding might go farther than even seems reasonable. Call them light and dark tanks, fire and ice tanks, peanut butter and jelly tanks, but if one of them is named "main tank" it feels like the other is named "less/worse" tank.

Dropping my response from the other thread into this one since it's a similar topic.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

Having watched the liveletter, I am reserving my full judgment once we learn more about job changes for Reborn & Evolved mode. (I will be referring to jobs as <job>-R and <job>-E for their Reborn and Evolved versions)


MT/OT designation on Job-E Modes may actually just imply that the toolkit for the Evolved mode of that job will be better suited for said role. This means a WAR-E, DRK-E and GNB-E will be better suited for OT tasks, PLD-E and new-E will be better suited for MT tasks, but that does not mean you can't have double MT-E or double OT-E work out and it may very well be fight dependent.


Furthermore, depending on how the general job changes will be coming into Evercold, DRK-R, WAR-R and GNB-R will very likely still be extremely potent main tanks regardless, just like how PLD-R might be an exceptional off-tank. The new tank's kit for potential off-tank duties may also need to be considered.


What we pick as Main Tanks and Off-Tanks could very much boil down to emergence/preference and may likely deviate based on raid culture/planning vs what they "intended" for those designation. After all, we have been doing content with double Barrier healers for some time now. All in all, I do give credit for them to try new things. Feedback of now should be at least considered or looked into, but not be the only relevant factor for future decisions.

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I don't mind either way but I'll enjoy the salt from viking bearded edgy influencers who main WAR and won't like being pushed into OT against their will.

Maybe I'm being overdramatic.... I think it's also compounded by the fact that they mentioned evolved rotations are supposed to do slightly more damage. So if a tank chose to remain in reborn to have the option to MT, they will have to do less damage in exchange. So it feels like you are a hindrance to your party either way... It really sucks as a WAR main because I felt the main skill expression I had as a WAR MT were in fights with heavy boss movement. Now I will likely be the melee healer, and my cotank who REALLY prefers to OT is forced into MT as a PLD main.

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Originally Posted by squidsplosion

Maybe I'm being overdramatic.... I think it's also compounded by the fact that they mentioned evolved rotations are supposed to do slightly more damage. So if a tank chose to remain in reborn to have the option to MT, they will have to do less damage in exchange. So it feels like you are a hindrance to your party either way... It really sucks as a WAR main because I felt the main skill expression I had as a WAR MT were in fights with heavy boss movement. Now I will likely be the melee healer, and my cotank who REALLY prefers to OT is forced into MT as a PLD main.

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Bit of a "wait and see". The damage difference may very much be just within 1-1.5% anyways, which isn't necessarily a big gap anyhow. Maybe different ways of skill expression emerge for R-actions and E-actions and you may be running different modes for different content. WAR-R and WAR-E may both be quite strong in 8.X in their own way, and a WAR-E can still potentially be played like a main tank. I mean, off-tanks had to take enmity from their main tank before and solve busters and MT-relative mechanics as well. I doubt they will make it "that" different.

Not directed at you, but I do want to stress that this is the guy who designed our PvP kits since at minimum Crystalline Conflict era. Considering those kits were quite well received for their conveyance of job identity and power fantasy, I believe it is fair to let him have a proper shot at Evolved action system.

If I was understanding correctly forced MT and OT only happens in evolved mode. If you play on Reborn mode your tank can do either role.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

If I was understanding correctly forced MT and OT only happens in evolved mode. If you play on Reborn mode your tank can do either role.

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The main pushback I've seen to this is people saying "Well evolved does more damage so why would I play something sub optimal." I think it'll really depend on how much of a difference the DPS difference is and even then, some people will refuse to play something if its even 100 dps less.

Like the WHM bis guide once said double tome is a massive dps gain and I checked and it was like... 60 dps more. Some people just want to output every bit of damage, whether that is the right approach or not is not up to me, but it's something common with MMO's that people will want to optimize their damage above all else.

I don't tank often but I prefer to MT as DRK so I will probably stick to reborn, I do think a lot of parse andies will be complaining regardless even if the solution is right there. And I do get it, but like, I doubt it'll be more than 1-2% dmg difference which wouldn't be that big of a deal.

For me personally fun is more important than getting max dmg but that's just me.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

If I was understanding correctly forced MT and OT only happens in evolved mode. If you play on Reborn mode your tank can do either role.

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You're right. I think the general perspective, though, is that at some point in the future (maybe even 9.0) the Evolved version will be all that is available for all jobs and not just the new ones. This is even more likely to be the case if the Evolved versions become the meta choice or just end up with a big enough percentage of the player base using them. There's also the chance that once fights start getting designed around having a dedicated main tank and a dedicated off tank you may essentially have to end up choosing Evolved (or the MT and OT designation will be forced by the devs onto Reborn mode too).

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

Bit of a "wait and see". The damage difference may very much be just within 1-1.5% anyways, which isn't necessarily a big gap anyhow. Maybe different ways of skill expression emerge for R-actions and E-actions and you may be running different modes for different content. WAR-R and WAR-E may both be quite strong in 8.X in their own way, and a WAR-E can still potentially be played like a main tank. I mean, off-tanks had to take enmity from their main tank before and solve busters and MT-relative mechanics as well. I doubt they will make it "that" different.

Not directed at you, but I do want to stress that this is the guy who designed our PvP kits since at minimum Crystalline Conflict era. Considering those kits were quite well received for their conveyance of job identity and power fantasy, I believe it is fair to let him have a proper shot at Evolved action system.

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Yeah I understand its probably like a 1% difference, but the way people in high end already treat the minimal difference between tanks right now is what's making me particularly doomer about it, as someone that mostly engages with that content (and likes to shoot for higher damage regardless of job). Even right now as is, WAR is held back by how Thrill functions in high end content in comparison to other tanks "equivalent" cooldowns which is also making me concerned about WAR-E's cooldowns. It's definitely wait and see though, but I'm really hoping they don't stick with this path since already a lot of folks are making assumptions

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Originally Posted by StriderShinryu

Yeah, I do think that having a designated Main Tank and a designated Off Tank could allow for some interesting fight design (and potentially more specialist tank game play moments which tanks have been clamouring for for a long time), but locking the designation by specific job feels like a bad move. It would be better if you could choose or toggle at the start of a duty with the job skills/abilities functioning differently based on what role you choose.

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It might not be a problem if each tank has their own unique gimmick to handling different scenarios of different things that they can specialize in. Sort of like PvP, where each tank is very strong, but strong in very different ways. I wonder how well they will be able to translate the job individuality into PvE though. If people don't like the unique gimmick and prefer a more homogenized form of tanking, they can always switch back to the Reborn style which is still nice for the time being so I think this will let the devs experiment a lot more on job toolkits than usual.

If the DPS gap isn't that big, meta is really subjective as it can only determine how well you can perform with that job's skill expressions or how good it feels in relative comparison. With jobs having more unique individualized skills compared to the Reborn version (like Bard's new dash or DRG's untargetable jump), I think the separation will be interesting to see because DPS could be not the end-all reason for taking a PLD over a GNB for instance in certain parts of a fight (they did say more mechanics happening faster too). With a removal of 2 min rotation timers, DPS might actually take a backseat in favor for more specialized job interactions to emphasize their individual strengths according to the encounter, and those varied job specific interactions might be what makes the encounters feel good over just meta dps options. Plus, it could mean every party composition tackles the fights slightly differently, unless they revert back to the Reborn skill version.

I'm going to wait and see, but still hopeful.

Too sad that it won't matter for 95% of the game.

Brother why? they could just make healer like current tanks in 7.0 not the reverse. Now ive to fight for a war or gbn to off tank, meanwhile pld and new tank got main tank spot for free hell nah man.

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Originally Posted by AnotherPerson

It might not be a problem if each tank has their own unique gimmick to handling different scenarios of different things that they can specialize in.

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I don't want my tank (warrior) to end up on the floor if the boss (fatebreaker) rolls his tankbuster high and my cotank forgot to give me his short mit under the pretence that I play a tank (warrior) that is perceived as strong in content where kits don't matter anyway (dungeons) while other tanks don't need the help and will survive the same hit from reasonably to straight up comfortably, it's already a problem and depending on the direction these changes take it's gonna be worse

On top of that the actual numbers and mechanics won't matter if the split is player enforced the same way many parties enforce having two melees to this day when it's a well known fact you not only don't gain anything from having a second one but you might be depriving the party from a better dps that just happens to have more gear / enjoy playing something like BLM more

In addition, if the differences are truly notable we might end up having a disproportionate amount of tanks playing one or the other making PFs hard to fill, it's never fun to wait for over an hour trying to fill a TOP party waiting for a shield healer

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Originally Posted by AnotherPerson

If people don't like the unique gimmick and prefer a more homogenized form of tanking, they can always switch back to the Reborn style which is still nice for the time being so I think this will let the devs experiment a lot more on job toolkits than usual.

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While that's true for now there's a fair chance that this won't always be the case considering they told us the new jobs wouldn't have those, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect those kits to end up being phased out for the expansion after the next one when they realize maintaining and trying to keep 40+ effective jobs is taking a ton of time that they would probably rather spend elsewhere

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Originally Posted by AnotherPerson

If people don't like the unique gimmick and prefer a more homogenized form of tanking, they can always switch back to the Reborn style which is still nice for the time being so I think this will let the devs experiment a lot more on job toolkits than usual.

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The issue is with new jobs not getting a Reborn playstyle at all, and the admission that they will be making the Evolved style the more effective one going forward it implies that Reborn combat is likely to be left without meaningful development in the future and will probably be dropped at a later date to simplify development.

I seriously hope they reconsider. I don't want to be stuck playing an old combat mode just because I want to continue playing Warrior MT like I always have.

I don't see any actual disadvantage to an "off-tank" being the main tank, except that Paladins will lose damage due to not counterattacking as much, although they could work around it by Covering a lot.

I'm not thrilled about this personally as a PLD Main I like being able to both MT and OT not being forced into one role.

Opposite issue i had with SHB where pld was forced into OT due to being a awful MT. I really don't like this.

I really do think people are taking their own meaning of Main and Off tank and using that to make their own mental image of what the dev team mean.

However, we know things don't necessarily translate well, so we should use what we do know. The first thing is, all tanks will be able to tank everything, you aren't going to drop dead at a tank buster just because you are an off tank.

the next is to point out what it says on the slide.

Main Tank, 'Skilled at taking direct damage' and 'Actions to counter enemy attacks'.

The second on is pretty clear, we have seen that with Paladin already. So, the main thing to look at is 'Skilled at taking direct damage'. To me, this means Paladin and the new tank will just have a better mitigation kit than the off tanks, so they take less damage overall as a unit. Paladin can spread that with Intervention and use Cover to also redirect damage, but the main goal is reducing the damage to themselves or an individual player.

Off Tank, 'Skilled at lowering damage taken by allies' and 'Actions to lower enemy damage'.

Starting with the first, I suspect this is more akin to having more actions that behave like Intervention, think The Blackest Night and Oblation on Dark Knight or even more effective raid wide mitigation. The second, lowering enemy damage, comes across more as a debuff to the enemies to reduce their damage, think Reprisal. Whether it means they have more of this, or, part of their job could be to keep this debuff up at all times. I also suspect part of the jobs kit is going to be based around these ideas, whether it be rewarded for mitigating damage, or, the damage mitigation is itself the reward.

This is then why in most content, it doesn't matter what you bring, it isn't going to be threatening enough to matter, however, once you get to Savage and Ultimate, having that mix of more focused mitigation and party mitigation between the 2 tanks becomes more vital.

How this plays out in reality, we do not know and there is also the big issue of, if you want to do Savage or Ultimate as, say, Warrior and Gunbreaker, you will necessarily be hindering yourself if one of you does not change.

Warr has an ability that damage enemies who attack it
- Puts them as off tank.

I mean, one of the highlights for the Paladin (Evolved Mode) was executing Intervene+Cover on an ally, and that's clearly an off-tank maneuver. So it's safe to say that this thing about some jobs being slightly better or worse for main/off-tank won't be that restrictive in practice. And Warrior (reborn mode, at least) as far as we know performs better as a main tank thanks to the Vengeance ability which punishes the enemy for attacking the Warrior, and this never made it a much better MT than the others to the point of forcing the others to be OTs.

So... it's too early to complain about anything, since we haven't seen how the jobs work yet. Let's give the development team some credit this time... for a change.

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Originally Posted by MayuAmakura

Warr has an ability that damage enemies who attack it

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"In Dawntrail/Reborn Mode".

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

"In Dawntrail/Reborn Mode".

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Indeed, we havent seen their new evolved skills. If Warrior is off-tank, then defensive skills that damage enemies will probably be removed.

Bet the difference between a MT and OT with evolved combat is going to be so utterly insignificant and meaningless that it'll be perfectly possible to run two OTs in savage.

Unless there is something else they haven't shown yet, PLD's shield counter just means they want to be auto-attacked or TB'd for extra damage, doesn't exactly showcase how much better they are at taking damage compared to the other jobs.

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Originally Posted by Ignatyus

I mean, one of the highlights for the Paladin (Evolved Mode) was executing Intervene+Cover on an ally, and that's clearly an off-tank maneuver.

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Hopefully it means they'll finally start having busters that target random people instead of just the tanks.

instead of giving the different tanks names that give the impression of designating which job should be the main tank and which should be the off tank, maybe they could call paladin and the 8.0 tank shield tanks as they focus on shielding their allies while warrior, dark knight, and gunbreaker could be something like blade tanks as they focus on "wounding" the enemy and making their attacks less effective