Please remove FF14 from my frontline roulette

I am so tired of people grinding frontline for things like mount or whatever, not interested in pvping.

Please remove the rest ff14 so i can play a game that i like without being subjected to rouletters.

Thanks

So long as FFXIV is regarded, typically with utmost fervour, that it is "a PvE centric game"; to the point the xp grindhounds will argue the PvP component -- that they have willingly signed up for -- "does not exist", and with so much undue contempt, the situation is inescapable. It's the same kind of sourness that would come out of someone scorned by another by parsing a regular 4-man instance. "Chill bro it's just trash content". It triggers that same sort of reaction, yet the circumstances are hardly comparable beyond that. It's not a leg that can be stood on in this debate; this isn't the Fall Guys collab with no buttons to press. Yet here we are.

But I'm not convinced FL would survive at the moment without the temptation of regular xp. The game doesn't have a refined enough progress track to encourage someone who's not inherently there for fun to consider refining their game just a little bit, than be content with being ultra dead weight. Series is super easy to get and doesn't require winning. For the xp temptation to go, the rewards have to be attractive enough but also not too lax to attain. Win achievement mounts are too ephemeral.

Without introducing a totally separate rated FL queue, as that would hurt the current population too much, how about a second layer to the series track be slipped in instead? Like a prestige line, existing in parallel. One that requires wins. And if you miss it, then you can use the bajillion trophy crystals we get to attain those; to exchange against a comm crystal like item. With an additional caveat that to access the NPC that sells older rewards (or the section of an existing NPC thereof) you need a certain (smaller) amount of wins within any current series to be able to see it, and that this resets each time, and with it the item pool. Maybe that last line may be a bit too harsh, I don't know. I think it'd help with discouraging lazy hoarding from the regular track, but it might not be necessary. Ultimately, none of this should be necessary.

I'd rather there not be more rewards to incentivize players to treat the content with more respect, but one can't deny how the typical player works in this game... and many others. I know that I'm tired of seeing the clap-back from some smarmy git telling me to calm down for breathing a word about any cowardice mid-match. What I'd like to see is more players genuinely curious about what the buttons do, rather than show up with an entitled slant while putting out AFK numbers.

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Originally Posted by TofuLove

I am so tired of people grinding frontline for things like mount or whatever, not interested in pvping.

Please remove the rest ff14 so i can play a game that i like without being subjected to rouletters.

Thanks

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Please remove new players from my leveling roulettes. I’m tired of people doing dungeons for XP and making runs take longer. Please remove the rest of ff14 players so I can play only the parts I like without being matched with anyone else who doesn't align with my preferences.

See how ridiculous you sound?

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Originally Posted by TofuLove

I am so tired of people grinding frontline for things like mount or whatever, not interested in pvping.

Please remove the rest ff14 so i can play a game that i like without being subjected to rouletters.

Thanks

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They should just remove any bonus and exp gain (even outside roulette) from any map or roulettes of Frontline.
If afterwards, there are not enough players to make a game pop in days, then so be it. It's better than the current situation.
If Frontline becomes a dead content and is removed, then so be it. It'd mean FFXIV population is not ready and interested enough in this potentially fun PvP mode (as much as any PvE content).

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Originally Posted by Ankhira

Please remove new players from my leveling roulettes. I’m tired of people doing dungeons for XP and making runs take longer. Please remove the rest of ff14 players so I can play only the parts I like without being matched with anyone else who doesn't align with my preferences.

See how ridiculous you sound?

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Whoooooosh

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Originally Posted by Ankhira

Please remove new players from my leveling roulettes. I’m tired of people doing dungeons for XP and making runs take longer. Please remove the rest of ff14 players so I can play only the parts I like without being matched with anyone else who doesn't align with my preferences.

See how ridiculous you sound?

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All we ask is for unmotivated players hindering teams and killing the fun much more than any premade to either stop queueing for Frontline, or try to to contribute harder.
You'd not love seeing the same waves of players invading your Party Finders and Duty Finders, grief your clear and act like they don't give a single mind to try more than a mere body presence (I also met them, in PvE, though fortunately rarer).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ankhira

Please remove new players from my leveling roulettes. I’m tired of people doing dungeons for XP and making runs take longer. Please remove the rest of ff14 players so I can play only the parts I like without being matched with anyone else who doesn't align with my preferences.

See how ridiculous you sound?

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I don't particularly PvP (haven't enjoyed it much since it went from adding atop the PvP kit to distilling it instead), but this is not quite matched to what the OP was referring to.

Because the PvP experience gives PvE rewards, you end up with people sandbagging or near-afking through PvP content because they only enjoy PvE and excuse their ruining things for others on that (despite the PvP being exactly what they, in this case, signed up for, happily or not).

A fix to this, though it wouldn't feel great, might be anything among...

• Rewards only for the winning team or scaling (more significantly) with victory,
• Harsher punishments for sandbagging (How would we even really enforce that, let alone reliably report it?),
• The more unique rewards, at least, coming only from wins,
• (If there were a larger consistent PvP population) Perhaps allowing for a second, more serious mode of each PvP content type, open to just those past a certain... whatever threshold that seems reasonable, and allowing one to simultaneously queue for each so serious PvPers could opt for something more exclusive,
• Etc., etc.

When Hunts give far more reward efficiency than any other means of grinding tomes, they at least only reduce the population of other tome-grind activities. When something is distinct from all other content and yet gets used generally, though, that extra population can actually be for the worse.

Imagine, for instance, if people tried to do Savage simply for Bonus/rested EXP to use on alt-leveling (perhaps with, like PvP, newly auto-adjustive/merely-comparative difficulty). And now someone wanted to leave Savage for those who actually want to, y'know, do the gameplay unique to Savage so it had a chance to function nearer to its full potential. That'd be a closer analogy.

Or, if people did Expert Roulette only for the lore tidbits... when they could have just used Explorer Mode for that (equivalent to any means of EXP other than PvP Daily Challenges/Roulettes), thereby slowing down people's more typical and specific use of that content type.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I don't particularly PvP (haven't enjoyed it much since it went from adding atop the PvP kit to distilling it instead), but this is not quite matched to what the OP was referring to.

Because the PvP experience gives PvE rewards, you end up with people sandbagging or near-afking through PvP content because they only enjoy PvE and excuse their ruining things for others on that (despite the PvP being exactly what they, in this case, signed up for, happily or not).

A fix to this, though it wouldn't feel great, might be anything among...

• Rewards only for the winning team or scaling (more significantly) with victory,
• Harsher punishments for sandbagging (How would we even really enforce that, let alone reliably report it?),
• The more unique rewards, at least, coming only from wins,
• (If there were a larger consistent PvP population) Perhaps allowing for a second, more serious mode of each PvP content type, open to just those past a certain... whatever threshold that seems reasonable, and allowing one to simultaneously queue for each so serious PvPers could opt for something more exclusive,
• Etc., etc.

When Hunts give far more reward efficiency than any other means of grinding tomes, they at least only reduce the population of other tome-grind activities. When something is distinct from all other content and yet gets used generally, though, that extra population can actually be for the worse.

Imagine, for instance, if people tried to do Savage simply for Bonus/rested EXP to use on alt-leveling (perhaps with, like PvP, newly auto-adjustive/merely-comparative difficulty). And now someone wanted to leave Savage for those who actually want to, y'know, do the gameplay unique to Savage so it had a chance to function nearer to its full potential. That'd be a closer analogy.

Or, if people did Expert Roulette only for the lore tidbits... when they could have just used Explorer Mode for that (equivalent to any means of EXP other than PvP Daily Challenges/Roulettes), thereby slowing down people's more typical and specific use of that content type.

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Good ideas. It'd be interesting to try those fixes and see the impact at first, if they could be enough.
Hopefully, the players won't surprisingly be motivated enough to wait/spam until they get freely carried by strong teams or premades.
Those idea may also keep some appeal for fresh new motivated players to join.

Sorry to say, but without those rewards/PVE players being filler, Frontlines likely wouldn't pop at all.

Case in point; Rival Wings. It is literally a dead mode outside of mogtomes events, and what are mogtome events for? Right, to farm rewards. And if you want to know what Frontline queues look like when there's not enough people to make it pop, go try and jump into a match on Dynamis. I played there for 3 years and I can count the number of matches I got into on one hand. If someone considers that "healthy and acceptable" PVP times, I have to question if they actually like PVP and aren't just trying to secretly kill it off.

Perhaps a better question would be to ask why FF14's PVP is considered so unfun by the majority that they don't participate with it seriously, or ignore it completely. Or why Square-Enix keeps trying to yank Frontline maps into being "PVE-lite" because they realize that a 72 player mode isn't sustainable unless there's something to coax non-PVPers into touching it (including the Series rewards).

But if anyone is adamant about wanting "real PVP" then go hit up Ranked Crystalline Conflict instead, because I don't think Frontlines is what you're looking for. It's always been an over-glorified mini-game where people just hoard and roam trying to make funny numbers go up while RPing that they're PVPing (including "commanders" who think they're actually leading an army of some kind or know what they're doing), and between leechers, premades, and one team always being full of idiots ("let's bully 3rd place, let's fight over 2nd place, let's ignore 1st place") it's never going to be a legitimate PVP mode when it has this much large-scale RNG working within it (including node spawns). Hell, jobs aren't even balanced around Frontlines, they're changed for Crystalline Conflict, regardless of what consequences that causes for Frontlines in turn (for years at a time no less). Even Role Actions weren't properly vetted before being added, that's why some are objectively better than others and you're griefing yourself by picking the bad ones.

The sooner you take the mode less seriously (not to the extend of not trying anymore, but not getting steamed at the results you didn't have any real control of anyway), the more tolerable the mode becomes, and probably even the more fun you'll have once you realize this is the Mario Party of the PVP modes compared to the deathmatch/king of the hill that is Crystalline Conflict, or the MOBA of Rival Wings.

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Originally Posted by Aidorouge

Sorry to say, but without those rewards/PVE players being filler, Frontlines likely wouldn't pop at all.

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Then so be it. Be it Frontline or other PvP modes, if it must be a dead or removed content by lack of players, then so be it than being so boringly unbalanced 95% of the time.
The results in question don't matter to me. Only the unfairness of having Frontline treated as an holiday center by people "who are just here for EXP/bonuses", compared to PvE fun contents. Or at the very least, make so that each team consistently gets balanced proportions of these players.

Frontline actually used to pop before the daily roulette. Mostly the 8v8v8 variant (more skill based), but at peek times you saw quite a few 24v24v24 like today. It rewarded xp, but it wasn't the daily xp amount.

It's only once they added the daily and noticed that it popped all the time that Yoshi showed up on a live letter and told us they were happy that there was enough people now so they could remove the 8v8v8... Like why

Guys, this isn't "remove frontline" thread. This is "remove ff14" thread. Please stay on topic.

After the removal of the rest of the game, I propose SE rename the game to Final Fantasy Rivals, or... Final Fantasy Battlefields...or Call of Frontline (or Call of Triumph as it's the only thing that's popping ffs)
I am open to suggestions.

p.s.
My latest addition to how to make pvp great again was the personal pvp achievements suggestion. Something out of kirby air riders cookbook. (it's peak)

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Originally Posted by aereniil

Then so be it. Be it Frontline or other PvP modes, if it must be a dead or removed content by lack of players, then so be it than being so boringly unbalanced 95% of the time.
The results in question don't matter to me. Only the unfairness of having Frontline treated as an holiday center by people "who are just here for EXP/bonuses", compared to PvE fun contents. Or at the very least, make so that each team consistently gets balanced proportions of these players.

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Nah, if you have such a problem with Frontlines or PVP in general you're free to stop queuing up for it instead of asking for it to become worse/unplayble for the rest of us.
+++

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Originally Posted by Valence

Frontline actually used to pop before the daily roulette. Mostly the 8v8v8 variant (more skill based), but at peek times you saw quite a few 24v24v24 like today. It rewarded xp, but it wasn't the daily xp amount.

It's only once they added the daily and noticed that it popped all the time that Yoshi showed up on a live letter and told us they were happy that there was enough people now so they could remove the 8v8v8... Like why

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I think that's just further proof that the developers don't take the mode THAT seriously and don't really care if players themselves try to, lol.

I've had my own history of criticism with Frontlines, from leechers or premades and of course balance, but Borderland Ruins and especially Worqor Chirteh made me realize I've been playing the mode wrong this whole time and I've accepted that this is not the mode I should be taking seriously due to all the things completely outside of my control.

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Originally Posted by Aidorouge

Nah, if you have such a problem with Frontlines or PVP in general you're free to stop queuing up for it instead of asking for it to become worse/unplayble for the rest of us.
+++



I think that's just further proof that the developers don't take the mode THAT seriously and don't really care if players themselves try to, lol.

I've had my own history of criticism with Frontlines, from leechers or premades and of course balance, but Borderland Ruins and especially Worqor Chirteh made me realize I've been playing the mode wrong this whole time and I've accepted that this is not the mode I should be taking seriously due to all the things completely outside of my control.

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Sigh... If that's what the developers aim for this mode, then so be it. I'll keep spamming and playing thousands of games, hundreds per month, to get the 2-5% of the most addictively fun games and content I got from FFXIV until now (not the games won, the fun ones). At the end, only I will be able to get my own fun from the best video game I've ever played, in the best (meaning most fun) PvP content I've ever tried. Even if those "leechers" or unmotivated players must spoil our efforts.

Moreover, I kinda like the idea of adapting the rewards to only winning teams, or scaled with rank and results.

Oh my god imagine how good 8v8v8 frontline will be. Q in the middle of the night when rouletters are sleeping to get regulars in. That would be so fun.
I don't even need rewards. In fact if it cost me EXP it would actually force me to play PVE content (ew).

If anyone has game suggestions that would scratch that itch for me - i would be grateful.

I personally really enjoy the pvp especially dueling at the Den, I like that it gives incentives to play the modes and wish Crystal Conflict was a Roulette. I find it nice that wait times for these modes aren't that bad

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Originally Posted by Aidorouge

I've had my own history of criticism with Frontlines, from leechers or premades and of course balance, but Borderland Ruins and especially Worqor Chirteh made me realize I've been playing the mode wrong this whole time and I've accepted that this is not the mode I should be taking seriously due to all the things completely outside of my control.

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Finally, after one of those boring one-sided victories (not all victories are boring) and ~5 games with those "bots" of "leechers" (at least, some of these games ended quickly), I had one of those thrilling most fun games : dying, killing, assists, resistance between every teams, mass fights, moving around to surprise and make the enemy panic, saving mates and being saved by heroes, using jump points to bomb with some aoes in the rear guard, Auroras making LBs rain all over the battlefield, the climax of Frontline fun !!!

That's why I keep playing Frontline on this game. And you're right on 1 point : instead of reducing the chances of popping a boring game unbalanced by unmotivated players, I should instead accept the situation and just keep repetitively playing thousands of games until my soul and body can't keep up.

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Originally Posted by aereniil

Finally, after one of those boring one-sided victories (not all victories are boring) and ~5 games with those "bots" of "leechers" (at least, some of these games ended quickly), I had one of those thrilling most fun games : dying, killing, assists, resistance between every teams, mass fights, moving around to surprise and make the enemy panic, saving mates and being saved by heroes, using jump points to bomb with some aoes in the rear guard, Auroras making LBs rain all over the battlefield, the climax of Frontline fun !!!

That's why I keep playing Frontline on this game. And you're right on 1 point : instead of reducing the chances of popping a boring game unbalanced by unmotivated players, I should instead accept the situation and just keep repetitively playing thousands of games until my soul and body can't keep up.

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Compared to Crystalline Conflict (or hell even Rival Wings), Frontlines certainly feels like it's meant to be the more chaotic "party game" PVP mode because RNG rules everything. You never know which nodes are going to pop, what rank they'll be, what Role Actions somebody brought (of if they're even using them right), what jobs people will be (and can change at spawn at any time), you can't always predict which teams (if any) have premades or slackers, shots may or may not be called (and its 50/50 if they're good calls) and all the while 72 people are running around all willy-nilly while flashy attacks are firing off all over the place. (This is pretty much THE mode they made "limited animations" for.) And again, there's no job balance in the slightest where meta comps are allowed to trivialize the mode for literally years.

One is rolling multiple dice at once, sometimes repeatedly, to the point its almost comical that others try to force it into some kind of ordered rigidness. I honestly don't think the mode was designed to be some kind of "army simulator" and for the few times where people are working in true tandem, that's a freak accident, not the intended way because it requires alignment even more perfect and synchronized then the hardest PVE content.

I think they really need to look into Frontline from the ground up, because part of the reason nobody cares or bothers to try is because the overall balance of it just absolutely sucks.

I don't think they should remove it from the roulette, but they do need to add some proper incentive for actually trying to win, as many people will also engage with Frontline (outside of the roulette) for the series rewards alone

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

...but they do need to add some proper incentive for actually trying to win, as many people will also engage with Frontline (outside of the roulette) for the series rewards alone

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I think the rewards should be based on participation. The number of tomes, XP, and crystals are determined by the number of kills, assists and claims you have.

First place, triple reward bonus. Second place, double reward bonus. Third place, normal reward bonus.

The more participation, the more rewards. The less participation, the less rewards. No participation, no rewards.

I’ve always this thought that XIV pvp enjoyers are the worst PvP players on all others PvP based-games.

It’s just a thought, so don’t get me wrong.
There’s LoL/Dota which is a PvP game with a similar structure to an MMo.
There’s Overwatch, Battlefield, Destiny which are shooter competitive.
There’s Where Winds Meet, Elden Ring/Souls which are Action RPG and have a competitive PvP mode one can enjoy.
There are FIFA and all EA sports games that has a competitive mode.
Quake, Unreal, Doom which are arena PvP.
There are many others genre that have a focused PvP modes.

So, why forcing yourselves to play XIV for its PvP when it is not designed to be a focused competitive game?
If one enjoy a particular mode, what they do is simply playing the game that can deliver to them the best experience they are looking for.

XIV’s PvP is not bad…it’s just doesn’t work well within a tab-targeting system…especially on a mode where there are 24vs48.

So back to my starting statement, although I can understand there are players who love the game AND the PvP mode, the ones who instead are whining like OP makes me think they are not quite good at PvP and just find XIV be their playground, like an older man who think they are the best at playing soccer just cus they are playing against kids.

Well XIV is amazing in the way that you can pvp without even doing actually fighting the other 'P' bit.

Anyway, I vote the mode be renamed Final Fantasia because I often witness the alliance having 4-8 bards playing music while one person sings tearfully about how bad our team is and how we won't win.

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Originally Posted by Jokerz_93

I’ve always this thought that XIV pvp enjoyers are the worst PvP players on all others PvP based-games.

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While this is the case for some, it's not in all. Yes XIV's PvP could be regarded as the "idle game" of PvP offerings, but sometimes you might want that no? Something low key on the side, but still dealing with the area one is interested in. Personally I enjoy fighting others directly no matter the format rather than beat a high score e.g. parses in PvE. And right now the main part of the game is pretty boring, yet I don't quite want to pull out the sub yet, and PvP gives me a means to justify the sub a bit more beyond house upkeep lol.

But I guess what I am tired of is... something that is pretty prevalent across the rest of the game as well; aversion to any negative press, even when valid. Even when it's delivered mostly neutrally. Even when it's a mere status update that so and so is winning sometimes. Then when there's any answer back, usually something extra bemusing or heated, nowadays I just shrug and revert to treating the mode as a quasi OW playground (ngl that's my preference).

Too much conflict of interest to bother between the ones who apparently want to win but won't invest the individual effort and bitterly hate their time there, and the ones that are "just let me have my xp faster wth is wrong with you guys stop trying to push buttons and resist!" The mode being seen as an obstacle rather than something fun to engage with, and it's not wholly the mode's fault imo. I'm just there to hit buttons in a not so random order for some entertainment while the core game sucks, and it's disappointing to not see that many in that camp.

ED: I did not fully take in your last sentence there sry I'm eepy so this post kinda pointless, but I ain't gonna delete.

It's quite funny when people are taking a non-serious thread seriously.

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Originally Posted by Jokerz_93

XIV’s PvP is not bad…it’s just doesn’t work well within a tab-targeting system…especially on a mode where there are 24vs48.

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Have you tried using controller? It's much easier.

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Originally Posted by Jokerz_93

whining like OP makes me think they are not quite good at PvP and just find XIV be their playground, like an older man who think they are the best at playing soccer just cus they are playing against kids.

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I am not into FIFA sorry...

edit:
(also it's football, not soccer)

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Originally Posted by Sunhwapark

Anyway, I vote the mode be renamed Final Fantasia because I often witness the alliance having 4-8 bards playing music while one person sings tearfully about how bad our team is and how we won't win.

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What about renaming Final Fantasy 14 to FiFa 14?
Make it more stealth...and we can add some balls...

You have to combat not only the enemy teams, but also every single member of your party! Who are all running in opposite directions! You can’t tell them what to do, you don’t pay their sub. Clearly this the supreme form of PvP

(Not a serious reply just a joke lol)

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Originally Posted by aereniil

All we ask is for unmotivated players hindering teams and killing the fun much more than any premade to either stop queueing for Frontline, or try to to contribute harder.
You'd not love seeing the same waves of players invading your Party Finders and Duty Finders, grief your clear and act like they don't give a single mind to try more than a mere body presence (I also met them, in PvE, though fortunately rarer).

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this 100% - its okay to be serious and insult and ridicule someone in a raid context for messing up. It's also normalized to feel guilt and feel horrible if you grief. Yet those same people would join a FL and then act like their take on it is the one that matters - and that its ridiculous that there are people in the game mode they chose to queue into that actually want to play it. Often I'm told to stop crying - its not that serious - or any multitude of insults for pointing out that our team has plenty of AFK people.

Moreover, forget WANTING to play. Those AFKers are the most selfish kinds of gamers. Their needs (getting exp) stand above all. They don't care about your fun, they don't care about the player next to them who is farming achievements, they willfully participate in a game mode that requires their cooperation with their team only to AFK and then yell and insult you when you express any semblance of passion towards the game mode you enjoy.

Imagine if I say "it aint that serious stop crying" in a savage PF...


Frontline is effectively the only game in human history where bad play and intentional throwing is encouraged.

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Originally Posted by spoo

Frontline is effectively the only game in human history where bad play and intentional throwing is encouraged.

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Frontline roulette is kind of like mario kart (especially worqor with it's travel times lol), if you ever had people in a house party trying to play it.

One guy is pretending to play whilst chatting up a hot girl who is pretending to play.
Another guy is drunk and doesn't know his left from right and still has motion controls turned on unknowingly.
Last guy is tryharding trying to become the king of mario kart.

I am definitely tryharding, cause we all know that hot girls like mario kart kings.

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Originally Posted by spoo

Snip

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I mean, that depends on how you define what a game is.
There are in fact many ways to define what games are. What are the necessary conditions and sufficient conditions of a game? What does it mean to play it?

One such definition by Bernard Suits states that a game is "the voluntary attempt to overcome unnecessary obstacles." This definition in and of itself is quite interesting. What are the obstacles we choose to overcome? Do the obstacles being overcome define the winning of a game? A game certainly can be won and a game can be lost. But is the act of winning and losing a necessary condition for a game to be a game?

If we consider cops and robbers a game, you can't really win at cops and robbers, therefor if we determine cops and robbers or other similar games of pretend to be games, then winning can't be a necessary condition to be playing a game.

Therefore now we must compare this "Frontline" to our current working definition of a game, and the combatants as players. If we consider our working definition of games to be similar to Suits' definition, while all players are inside "Frontlines" are they all in fact playing the same game? Must one be a willing participant in order to be considered playing? We must assume that if one chooses to "queue" into frontlines that they are in fact choosing to be a willing participant and while we can not say for sure if one must be exercising free will in order to be considered a player, we can certainly assume that one has chosen to "play" frontlines.

However, is the "Frontlines" they've queued into the same game that others queued into the game they have chosen to play? Or are they in fact playing a different game?

If we assume that the "unnecessary obstacles" must be similar that we can also assume that if they consider different obstacles unnecessary then they are in fact playing a different game. To many players the other players on the opposing team are the unnecessary obstacle in their way in order to win. But what if we surmise that for other players, the act of "participating" in frontlines is in fact, an unnecessary obstacle to them obtaining currency to earn some sort of reward. Therefore we can say that for them Frontlines is in fact not the game they are playing, but an obstacle in the true game they are playing. If we surmise this, then they are in fact playing the game correctly, at least the game they are playing. While they are acting as a hindrance in the game of others, they are still in fact playing a game. The game is of their own choosing even if the obstacles are not.

It is then possible to finally surmise that, while frontlines may be some sort of game that many play, the obstacles within frontlines does not change often, "other players" be them opposing or on the same team, act as unnecessary obstacles to "winning", and whatever "winning" may be, is not for this text to surmise. However, we can certainly say that though some may "queue" into frontlines and choose it as an activity to participate in, the game they are playing through that participation is not necessarily the act of Player vs Player that Frontlines is. But in fact they are playing their own game.

We can of course choose this "non-play" and change the "game" we have defined here, if in fact someone decides to play Frontlines simply to "kill the most players" they are not advancing the "game state" or the state of play to a winning state in all instances. Would these people be defined as not playing? Not by our definition of course. In fact these "players" are simply playing a different game, one where the "goal" may often align with winning Frontlines but sometimes may not.

Therefore finally, this text can say, that "playing" Frontlines "correctly" may have a small scope, but "participating" in frontlines in order to play some other game or achieve some other goal means that non play, is in fact still participation in the "voluntary attempt to over come unnecessary obstacles" as per Suits' definition of playing a game. Is this bad play? No certainly not, is in fact play of a different kind.

Chill on the AI...

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Originally Posted by Cynric

We can of course choose this "non-play" and change the "game" we have defined here, if in fact someone decides to play Frontlines simply to "kill the most players" they are not advancing the "game state" or the state of play to a winning state in all instances. Would these people be defined as not playing? Not by our definition of course. In fact these "players" are simply playing a different game, one where the "goal" may often align with winning Frontlines but sometimes may not.

Therefore finally, this text can say, that "playing" Frontlines "correctly" may have a small scope, but "participating" in frontlines in order to play some other game or achieve some other goal means that non play, is in fact still participation in the "voluntary attempt to over come unnecessary obstacles" as per Suits' definition of playing a game. Is this bad play? No certainly not, is in fact play of a different kind.

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If somebody is padding for kills or damage - that to me is advancing the game state. You can even pad node capping - anything is useful. "Non-play" is non participation.
I don't think anyone who queues into frontline and wants to not participate is thinking "i am participating in pvp of a different kind - i want to be an obstance to my team winning that they need to overcome". This is some crazy rationalisation.

The point of a lot of these messages in this thread is arguing that non participation should be combatted and discouraged. The key word in the definition "the voluntary attempt to overcome unnecessary obstacles." is "attempt".

[edit]
It's like if you are playing cops and robbers and a person just stands there not willing to "attempt". The hell is wrong with them... You can then use your logic and rationalise that it's because they are playing their own game, which in real world could result in person getting sectioned.

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Originally Posted by TofuLove

Chill on the AI...

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It's hilarious you thought this post was Ai. I'm not sure whether to be insulted or proud.
Also what did you say?

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Originally Posted by TofuLove

It's quite funny when people are taking a non-serious thread seriously.

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I think you missed the point of my post altogether.

But let's step further into the pit right?


Who is the one deciding the obstacles? Is it you? Square, the player? Who decides what good play is and what bad play is? You say killing advances the game state, but does that extend to players who have say... 10 kills and 25 deaths because they over extend and only care about killing? Maybe they just aren't very good at the act of killing but that's what they want to do. I would argue that by your definition this does in fact count as advancing the game state, but in fact it sends the winning state more towards losing.


I never argued that someone purposefully queues into Frontline intending to be a nuisance. I simply said, Perhaps they are there for some other reason. Maybe... Experience? Tomes? Maybe for some subjective fun that doesn't necessarily involve winning? Perhaps playing with a cohort of friends. Well, as much as Frontlines allows.

But since we are on the topic of purposefully queueing to be a nuisance... Is it 100% without a doubt likely that this is a fact? No one has ever queued into Frontlines with the goal of being a nuisance to their team? With absolute certainty, that no one, at all has ever gone in just intending to "troll" the game, or to be a chaotic nuisance to anyone. I will absolutely disagree with that statement. As there are all types of people in the world, and the likelihood of that happening is a non-zero percent.

But that aside, I was never arguing that.

I was just poking fun at you all trying to quantify people trying or not trying in Frontlines, the for fun game mode.

You can sum my entire post up into one point.
People are playing for their own reasons. You play for your own reasons. A lot of people hate frontline / pvp in this game but queue into it because they want some kind of reward. But some people just aren't playing the game the way you want them to. You can argue about it all day, try to figure out something to fix it, but you'll be doing that for eternity.

Unless you just accept the simple answer. They care about different things than you do.

Again though it was mostly a joke to kill the time until I decide to actually do some work.

Your post was a joke and so was mine.


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I am curious though. What on earth made you think my post was Ai lol. It has only ok grammar and some spelling mistakes that I just left in there.

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Originally Posted by Cynric

It's hilarious you thought this post was Ai. I'm not sure whether to be insulted or proud.

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...it's was joke about long wordy posts.

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Originally Posted by Cynric

You can argue about it all day, try to figure out something to fix it, but you'll be doing that for eternity.

Unless you just accept the simple answer. They care about different things than you do.

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I am glad you are happy with it!

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Originally Posted by TofuLove

...it's was joke about long wordy posts.



I am glad you are happy with it!

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Thanks ! Me too.

I hope someday it improves for you!

Also your joke was funny after you explained it!

Everyone says everything is Ai these days so its hard to tell if people are serious or not. But as a long post joke that makes me giggle.

I have never had a problem with people being bad in Frontline. It's an unranked, chaotic mode, and 'herding cats' is an appropriate description more often than not.

But the fact that players are allowed to openly talk about throwing, go 0-14-0 feeding, and ridicule their teammates for trying and clearly not suffer penalties for this behavior is ludicrous. The refusal to address it puts the lie to anything the developers say about improving/expanding the game mode.

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

I think they really need to look into Frontline from the ground up, because part of the reason nobody cares or bothers to try is because the overall balance of it just absolutely sucks.

I don't think they should remove it from the roulette, but they do need to add some proper incentive for actually trying to win, as many people will also engage with Frontline (outside of the roulette) for the series rewards alone

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You're totally right. But is it only possible and most importantly, would it only be worth the efforts, time, and money that need to be invested by SE ? How would the people queueing to it react in terms of participation ? (because THAT is the first concern of SE, and they're right to consider it, in a sense).

Until then, battle junkies like me need to cope and spam FL while facing premades or much stronger/skillful players/jobs and playing along with PvP slackers and bots (while training and getting experience [not the rewards]) + sometimes wonderful mates.

But indeed, overall balance is a mess on this mode.

excellent thread

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Originally Posted by aereniil

You're totally right. But is it only possible and most importantly, would it only be worth the efforts, time, and money that need to be invested by SE ? How would the people queueing to it react in terms of participation ? (because THAT is the first concern of SE, and they're right to consider it, in a sense).

Until then, battle junkies like me need to cope and spam FL while facing premades or much stronger/skillful players/jobs and playing along with PvP slackers and bots (while training and getting experience [not the rewards]) + sometimes wonderful mates.

But indeed, overall balance is a mess on this mode.

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I think it would be worth the effort... Especially if they can turn it into content that realistically a lot of players only queue up for, to get daily roulette... Into something that people are more inclined to find fun... I think even just down-scaling from 72 (24 per GC) into something smaller would be a great stride..

For the most part you get serious players grouped in with non-serious players at all, and then chaos ensues... How people react to it is mostly dependent on the team or the match than it is the content itself... You can get put in a team when you absolutely wipe the floor with the competition, and absolutely love it... On the flip side, you can get put on a team where you spend most of the time getting mopped up... How often does a player complain about something when they are on the 'giving end', versus when they are on the receiving end of it.... Not saying everyone is like this, but I feel like due to the size more of the content hinges on the outcome rather than it does the actual content itself.

Plus relating to balancing, this content will always get the hard-end of the stick, as the balancing decisions are made around much, much smaller PvP game modes.

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

I think it would be worth the effort... Especially if they can turn it into content that realistically a lot of players only queue up for, to get daily roulette... Into something that people are more inclined to find fun... I think even just down-scaling from 72 (24 per GC) into something smaller would be a great stride..

For the most part you get serious players grouped in with non-serious players at all, and then chaos ensues... How people react to it is mostly dependent on the team or the match than it is the content itself... You can get put in a team when you absolutely wipe the floor with the competition, and absolutely love it... On the flip side, you can get put on a team where you spend most of the time getting mopped up... How often does a player complain about something when they are on the 'giving end', versus when they are on the receiving end of it.... Not saying everyone is like this, but I feel like due to the size more of the content hinges on the outcome rather than it does the actual content itself.

Plus relating to balancing, this content will always get the hard-end of the stick, as the balancing decisions are made around much, much smaller PvP game modes.

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It's true that there is no hope for improvement on either balance (since Frontline is not the baseline to adjust jobs) or matchmaking.

Also, I'm tired of trying harder when I notice my team having a majority of slackers who just await the end of the game or a huge strike of luck (running around while unsuccessfully avoiding the other aggressive teams, not trying at all to listen to any order asking to contest/ambush other teams, even from "captains", or seeing in the final report some people at 0 damage done but 3 mins or more of occupation time).
So when I see that a majority of those in the team doesn't want to win, then I accept their decision and "ok, no problem, I'll just focus on my own fun and play solo". We won't likely win, so I might try to harass the other teams or experiment some fun bold (or desperate) odd moves xD
I am part of the problem, but at this stage, it doesn't matter anymore.

That's the only way to still enjoy until epic fun (and balanced) fights come in xD.

Hi everyone, this is Nyaoki Yoshida,
We here at Square Enix think that OP makes some great points.
As such we have scheduled for the removal of FF14.
No more glamour dresser problems, no more housing problems, no more hardcore raids problems!

Please look forward to it, nya

Yo OP I'm curious if the 3 teams part of front line is good. I feel like its the main reason i could never take it seriously from a competitive standpoint. Two teams just gang up on the weakest till they're hopelessly behind and try to one up eachother very last second.

It might also be that i hate the number 3 or something. I hated to forced 3v3 they put in dissidia NT while the previous mainline dissidia final fantasies were strictly 1v1. I felt like it just encourages degenerate behavior like ratting.