Are we reneging on the commitment to have more difficult normal content already?

All the fights this patch feel much more like Endwalker fights than Dawntrail fights. Especially the MSQ dungeon. Are we back to the good ol winning formula of boring fights boring rotations then?

I think the normal trial was pretty fun, but the dungeon and normal raids series were very bleh.

Only one that stood out to me was the trial really.

I can see the normal raids have saved a lot of stuff for Savage because you can tell how all these mechs will be combined or have responsibility applied, but it's clearly left the normal versions as barebones. As usual, the music will save them.

Agreed that the Raid was good stuff, not hard persay but interesting at least. The dungeon was "meh" but let's be fair here, it's normal content. It's not supposed to be too difficult for people to get by, it's intended so that majority of people out there can enjoy it even if they aren't particularly good at the game in general. I'm actually fine with this formula of making normal content reasonable while the side-content and extreme/savage content is meant to be for the real challenge

I haven’t done MSQ but the first fight of the heavyweight raid we wiped multiple times to the first Grinding wheel. I suspect it will get easier as more people get geared up but close to minimum iLevel was pretty challenging dps check.

Normal Trial was W I loved the raids also

Dungeon? eh there were some fun mechs on the mid boss I really liked but in general it was very lackluster.

I dunno I think i just wanna move away from dungeon hallways more then anything but that's very unlikely.

Difficulty probably did go down, but I feel like they're at least actually doing damage.Medica 3 no longer outheals the normal Raid bosses.

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Originally Posted by DarkOmegaGod

All the fights this patch feel much more like Endwalker fights than Dawntrail fights. Especially the MSQ dungeon. Are we back to the good ol winning formula of boring fights boring rotations then?

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I would agree. The dungeon was a snoozefest, the trial was... also a snoozefest. Raids were mid, but the music negates any criticism I'll ever have.

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Originally Posted by DarkOmegaGod

All the fights this patch feel much more like Endwalker fights than Dawntrail fights. Especially the MSQ dungeon. Are we back to the good ol winning formula of boring fights boring rotations then?

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I get what you mean with the MSQ dungeon this patch it feels less difficult than the previous Dawntrail ones. But I think that may be intentional. SE added fail‑safes to Duty Support, which suggests a lot of players were struggling with the harder dungeons. If that’s the case, it makes sense they’d dial things back a bit.

Trials and raids feel the same with what we usually get, we wiped on the first one and almost on fourth one so I don’t think difficulty has disappeared. Personally, I’m a little tired of this same debate every time something is easier than before. If you’re craving difficult content, that’s what Extreme, Savage, and Ultimates are for... normal dungeons have never really been the place for that.

It’s fair to say you’re bored or not engaged with 'easier' content, but I don’t think turning every aspect of the game into a constant ‘gotcha’ mechanic checklist is the right direction either. If anything, it showcases a deeper problem where SE either pivots completely one way or the other. In my opinion the Jeuno Alliance raid, San d'oria is the perfect example of what most difficulty should be like outside of extreme/savage/ultimate. I did that yesterday and we almost wiped on the boss with the crystals and it was really fun.

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Originally Posted by DarkOmegaGod

All the fights this patch feel much more like Endwalker fights than Dawntrail fights. Especially the MSQ dungeon. Are we back to the good ol winning formula of boring fights boring rotations then?

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Try doing some real content.

I liked the dungeon and trail content this patch so far. Difficulty is really hard to tune, but I don't see any reason normal content needed to be more difficult. I also think it's a stretch to say that they made a commitment for more difficult normal content -- where did they say this?

If you are talking about the much reported on Famitsu article it's important to note that Yoshi-P explicitly said he did not want to "simply increase the game's difficulty." He wanted to increase the variety of mechanics and the sense of accomplishment. It was never about an increase in difficult and they certainly didn't promise that.

It's about finding a balance, but I hope SE avoids the pitfall of tuning normal content for the loudest voices. Increasing the floor usually just serves as a tool for gatekeeping. A healthy MMO needs to stay accessible to everyone, not just those looking to filter out players they deem "bad."

I like the difficulty they have set for the story mode content; it's a good balance. I am hoping that this will represent quantum level 1 in their content design and then add levels up from there. If you want it harder in 8.0, you can dial it up, but they need a baseline, and I believe they have found a good start.

My guildhests are too easy as someone with 10 000+ hours in this game. They really should make them more difficult.

No, I will not do extreme.

I got the impression they are trying something new with the combat. It did feel easier to me over all, but it also seemed like I had to spend a lot more time watching for boss tells and doing things that involved more personal responsibility. Seemed a bit more chaotic and free-form.

I never demanded more mechanically intensive fights. I was always perfectly happy to whack on glorified training dummies when jobs were engaging. Then when that was taken away we were told to wait a mere 1068 days until this alleged job rework and in the meantime the new fight design would make up for it. That was the compromise. Now in the same patch they've reduced both the encounter difficulty and took two more violent stabs at job identity. What are we supposed to make of this??? The people demand answers Yoshida!

The game has been hemorrhaging subs, maybe they have data that shows the people who complain about things not being hard enough aren't quitting as much as the people wiping multiple times to the MSQ content.

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Originally Posted by Miradelle

My guildhests are too easy as someone with 10 000+ hours in this game. They really should make them more difficult.

No, I will not do extreme.

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Not everyone wants to strictly look at a guide to do content, they want some level of challenge without it being trial and error, Theirs a difference in having some challenge in level 100 content then very early guildhests as well.

The "go do ext, savage, ultimate" crowd really think it's a catch all for anyone complaining about anything for easier content, frankly even if your a ultimate raider your still going to put a lot of times into the newest dungeons for tome grinding, it's essential to you gearing

Though frankly I don't even think its a content problem more of a class design issue with Jobs generally being boring and the only fun that people expect you to have is in hardcore content these days, which lose replay value because of the poor job design system, that was caused by raiders who whined that "x job isn't as good in this raid" and people locking out jobs despite them being able to clear.

How about no we make dungeons not corridors that bar you at two mob packs? how about we make the jobs themselves actually fun and enjoyable so that playing dungeons and casual content can be good learning practice for the harder content and the simple fact it makes the holy grail of raider content savage and ultimate more replayable? how about we not say you have to play hardcore content to have fun, people are valid for saying they want more interesting dungeon design.

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Originally Posted by Fawkes

The game has been hemorrhaging subs, maybe they have data that shows the people who complain about things not being hard enough aren't quitting as much as the people wiping multiple times to the MSQ content.

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If that was the case there would be an extremely noticeable uptick in the proportion of the playerbase who does savage as the casual end would drop off leaving a more top heavy playerbase

But that hasn’t happened which seems to indicate that the loss of subs is fairly uniform across all competency levels

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Originally Posted by Astronis

I got the impression they are trying something new with the combat. It did feel easier to me over all, but it also seemed like I had to spend a lot more time watching for boss tells and doing things that involved more personal responsibility. Seemed a bit more chaotic and free-form.

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Same. The mechanics themselves are not difficult, but they demand attention which is nice. I think it's not a terrible direction overall, but I also enjoy the more "puzzle"-like mechanics! A healthy mix between the two would be more my preference.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

If that was the case there would be an extremely noticeable uptick in the proportion of the playerbase who does savage as the casual end would drop off leaving a more top heavy playerbase

But that hasn’t happened which seems to indicate that the loss of subs is fairly uniform across all competency levels

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There would not be an uptick of anything. I don't know how you would gauge the proportion of the playerbase, are you surveying everyone who logs in? Not everyone AFKs in Limsa.

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Originally Posted by Fawkes

There would not be an uptick of anything. I don't know how you would gauge the proportion of the playerbase, are you surveying everyone who logs in? Not everyone AFKs in Limsa.

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Using surveys and achievement for clearance rates of savage

Lucky releases the census every patch

DT savage has basically the same proportion clearance as the other expansions, which means the playerbase hasn’t gotten noticeably more or less top heavy

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Originally Posted by Astronis

I got the impression they are trying something new with the combat. It did feel easier to me over all, but it also seemed like I had to spend a lot more time watching for boss tells and doing things that involved more personal responsibility. Seemed a bit more chaotic and free-form.

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I definitely feel like this patch has "Pay Attention To Your Surroundings" flashing in neon. Maybe not as hard-hitting but you need to use your eyes.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Using surveys and achievement for clearance rates of savage

Lucky releases the census every patch

DT savage has basically the same proportion clearance as the other expansions, which means the playerbase hasn’t gotten noticeably more or less top heavy

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So if people are leaving uniformly, and ~70% of the playerbase doesn't do savage, then 70% of the people quitting don't do savage.


Also, he says in the 7.3 report that fewer players are doing savage than usual.

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Originally Posted by Lucky Bancho

ただ奇数パッチになるとRE装備やアライアンスレイド装備などで装備ILの底上げができるので踏破者数は普段は増えていく傾向にあるのだが、今回は新しく挑戦しようという人が増えない傾向にあるようだ。
「だから緩和するべき」と言いたいわけではない。高難易度をやる人とやらない人が分かれる傾向はここでも読み取れるということだ。

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Originally Posted by Google Translate

While the number of players who clear the content usually increases with odd-numbered patches due to the availability of upgraded gear from RE equipment and Alliance Raids, this time, there seems to be a trend of fewer new players attempting the content.
This doesn't mean I'm saying "they should make it easier." It simply shows that the tendency for players to be divided into those who attempt high-difficulty content and those who don't is evident here as well.

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Originally Posted by Fawkes

So if people are leaving uniformly, and ~70% of the playerbase doesn't do savage, then 70% of the people quitting don't do savage.


Also, he says in the 7.3 report that fewer players are doing savage than usual.

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The first point doesn’t make a point either way

If people are leaving uniformly it’s unlikely to be about job design or difficulty, since less people already do savage than people that do do it saying “if people leave evenly that means more people who are leaving don’t do it” doesn’t affect the statement at all

If the 7.3 quote is accurate that less people are doing savage then it’s an argument against your point because it means people leaving are disproportionately people who do savage which would indicate it’s possible the average playerbase still thinks the game is too easy

Well, going against the grain here.... but I really enjoyed the dungeon and the Trial.

Did the dungeon with Trust (as a side-note, Sphene was a great healer) the first time I played it and found the balance about right personally. And I found the Trial somewhat 'spicy' but got through it.

Unpopular an opinion as this may be, I'm going to express it anyway: I'm hoping they continue to balance fights in this manner; I don't see why every boss has to be a DDR-attack fest - let those of us who prefer some balance have some fun.
I know I did.

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Originally Posted by Shistar

Same. The mechanics themselves are not difficult, but they demand attention which is nice. I think it's not a terrible direction overall, but I also enjoy the more "puzzle"-like mechanics! A healthy mix between the two would be more my preference.

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I'd just like to use my eyes less and use my brain more, which means using my job toolkit in meaningful ways beyond reciting a music sheet on a script to deal uniform damage.

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Originally Posted by Valence

I'd just like to use my eyes less and use my brain more, which means using my job toolkit in meaningful ways beyond reciting a music sheet on a script to deal uniform damage.

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But would you rather not dodge the AoE and keep hammering your GCD? /s
Honestly though, I had hoped that this new and improved encounter design we were promised would be things like that, having to make decisions as a player. Instead, it looks like we got ShB/EW with smaller hitboxes and different tells.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

The first point doesn’t make a point either way

If people are leaving uniformly it’s unlikely to be about job design or difficulty, since less people already do savage than people that do do it saying “if people leave evenly that means more people who are leaving don’t do it” doesn’t affect the statement at all

If the 7.3 quote is accurate that less people are doing savage then it’s an argument against your point because it means people leaving are disproportionately people who do savage which would indicate it’s possible the average playerbase still thinks the game is too easy

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The point is, if SE is looking at numbers and sees 70% of the people quitting are MSQ Andys, they might make the MSQ easier to reduce friction and try to stem the tide of subscription losses. This thread is about the MSQ content being easier this patch.

You seem to have erroneously equated "people who do savage" with "people who think the game is too easy". There could be people who cleared that thought it was too hard. But if people are getting hardstuck on Yan and quitting the game then that goes along with my point perfectly. Although there's not an achievement for that so we don't know from Lucky Bancho if they are quitting or not, maybe they all have houses they don't want to lose. Maybe if the upcoming tier of savage fights is easier that could potentially point to that being the case, and SE reacting to those people quitting by making it easier.

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Originally Posted by Fawkes

The point is, if SE is looking at numbers and sees 70% of the people quitting are MSQ Andys, they might make the MSQ easier to reduce friction and try to stem the tide of subscription losses. This thread is about the MSQ content being easier this patch.

You seem to have erroneously equated "people who do savage" with "people who think the game is too easy". There could be people who cleared that thought it was too hard. But if people are getting hardstuck on Yan and quitting the game then that goes along with my point perfectly. Although there's not an achievement for that so we don't know from Lucky Bancho if they are quitting or not, maybe they all have houses they don't want to lose. Maybe if the upcoming tier of savage fights is easier that could potentially point to that being the case, and SE reacting to those people quitting by making it easier.

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If square sees a proportion of people roughly equal to the wider proportion of casual/hardcore people leaving there is zero reason to believe that those people are leaving due to difficulty problems because they are equal to the wider proportion of the games playerbase. If the playerbase is split 70/30 and 70/30 leave and your response is “70% are casuals we must make the game easier” then you both misunderstand how proportions works and have obviously gathered no actual data about why these people are leaving (general you)

I’m not equating them, I’m using a negative space, just because you do savage doesn’t mean you think the game is too easy, however if you think current casual content is too hard you DONT do savage, ergo if the proportion of people doing savage noticeably changes across the wider playerbase as the population as a whole changes then one of the possible reasons is a change in the proportion of people not doing savage leaving. So since proportion of people doing savage went down in DT it’s actually more likely that people who are more predisposed to thinking casual content is too easy (savage raiders) left than people who are less predisposed to thinking casual content is too easy (non savage raiders)

Of course this can also be savage raiders simply dropping back to casual or leaving because they don’t like savage at the moment, but it’s likely a combination of many factors

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Originally Posted by Fawkes

The point is, if SE is looking at numbers and sees 70% of the people quitting are MSQ Andys, they might make the MSQ easier to reduce friction and try to stem the tide of subscription losses. This thread is about the MSQ content being easier this patch.

You seem to have erroneously equated "people who do savage" with "people who think the game is too easy". There could be people who cleared that thought it was too hard. But if people are getting hardstuck on Yan and quitting the game then that goes along with my point perfectly. Although there's not an achievement for that so we don't know from Lucky Bancho if they are quitting or not, maybe they all have houses they don't want to lose. Maybe if the upcoming tier of savage fights is easier that could potentially point to that being the case, and SE reacting to those people quitting by making it easier.

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Regardless of the exact percentages, a whole bunch of casuals and hardcores alike have been dropping off in large chunks, and with the current trend of "easier" jobs and "harder" content, it's understandable to assume that one side is leaving out of boredom and the other frustration.

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Originally Posted by DarkOmegaGod

All the fights this patch feel much more like Endwalker fights than Dawntrail fights. Especially the MSQ dungeon. Are we back to the good ol winning formula of boring fights boring rotations then?

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I said it many times, the only reason fight seemed harder in early wa because everyone started with basic ilvl. Someone that has gottzn his gear from the previous patch without savage has between 755 and 760 ilvl gear, while content is done so people with the previous content dungeon gear (ilvl 735) can run it. Someone that rushed to get crafted gear is one patch in advance. Do acclaimed 'more difficult' early dungeons with ilvl 720-730 gear, and it's awalk in the park.

I dunno I think they should keep normals easy. People who want hard content have three more difficulty tiers of content to do.