Ran a few of these this morning and I have to say, I enjoy this map. It feels a lot like Onsal except the way you cap the points is different, and you can get buffs. Was interested to see what other people think about the map.
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Ran a few of these this morning and I have to say, I enjoy this map. It feels a lot like Onsal except the way you cap the points is different, and you can get buffs. Was interested to see what other people think about the map.
Has it been added to the roulette or is it just a standalone? Was gonna play later today. Is it still a seal rock day or did they adjust roulette to put worqor in there for today?
The developers stated that a primary goal of Worqor Chirteh is to promote actual PvP play—i.e., getting kills, not just objectives. Unfortunately, this map fails to achieve that goal. The problem is simple: objectives induce conflict. But the Worqor nodes—despite an apparent intention to make claiming them a challenge—are overwhelmingly claimed too quickly for other teams to contest them. What I am seeing repeatedly is that a team moves toward a node with the intention of fighting for it, only to learn that the node is already claimed. They can't get there in time. The team then backs off, confused about where to go. The actual PvP is minimal, limited to a handful of isolated scraps.
Contrast this with Onsal Hakair, where it is always possible for a full team to reach a node before it is claimable, and thus fairly contest it. This produces prolonged conflicts, which in turn produce battle high, which in turn produces a more enjoyable experience for Frontline enthusiasts. With Worqor, on the other hand, prolonged conflicts are vanishingly rare. It simply takes too long to get from Point A to Point B. And by the time you get to Point B, the node is already gone, and the reason for players to battle disappears.
The fundamental issue is the mismatch between (1) lengthy travel times around and across the map, due to its design; and (2) the short length of time required to claim a node.
I assume it is too late to redesign the map, so the only obvious solutions to me are: (a) increasing mount speed significantly; and/or (b) increasing the amount of time between a node spawning and the node becoming claimable.
Short of one of those two solutions (or something else that achieves a similar effect), this map will not promote enjoyable PvP play; nor will it become a favorite in the Frontline community.
All of what KBK said is pretty much it. When you have a late game engagement on one side, 3 A nodes spawn on the other side (yay rng bs), good luck getting there in time. we already have seal rock and onsal. did we really need a 3rd rng map?
Yeah, this is what I expected out of Onsal 2.0...
Like literally the worst iteration you could ask for even. As if the problems with Onsal weren't bad enough, I think the dev team is lacking when it comes to actually understanding how bad their maps are. As KBK said, the distance is an issue and reflects a lot of my gripes with Seal Rock - RNG determining whether you win or lose.
Generally, I'd be in favor of the latter since increasing the claiming time would go quite a ways towards fixing the issue. Mostly though I figured they went about the claiming system this way as a response to PLD Cover being busted, even with the Guard reduction abilities they had to specifically COUNTER Guard - which actually worked against them to the point PLD could do it too. It makes no sense with how they've balanced CC and made Onsal 2.0 just Onsal with another coat of paint, except taking the Worst of both worlds.
I haven't tried this mode yet, but you're telling me the nodes don't preload and show up before turning actionable like they do on Onsal? Is this a joke?
"When a triumph begins activating, a symbol will appear above it indicating the time remaining before it becomes unclaimed. The symbol will gradually take shape until it becomes complete, rendering the triumph unclaimed."
They're sitting there all the time, then pop up on your map as they begin their countdown to activation. People are just blind as usual and if there's not a full-blown battle already going on at the site, it'll be automatically claimed by whoever is currently standing on it, judging by the information on the site.
If teams are not getting to nodes fast enough to contest them, that's a paying attention issue, not a design issue. Just like in onsal, the nodes advertise themselves for a good while before they become claimable. If you are playing with your map open, which you should be, seeing nodes and getting there in time should not pose a problem.
Biggest issue with this map is how long it takes to get to a node. You're basically doing marathons back and forth with the nodes so by the time you get there the node is already claimed or you are being zerged by a fully assembled team that happened to be closer. I keep wishing I had some method of fast travel (e.g. teleporters) between the nodes in order to get to fights faster. I still feel Onsal is the better map of this type.
I have no trouble getting to nodes on time. Of course, i pay attention and keep map open.
The map feels too big with too much travel time from all of the terrain obstructions. I'm also not a fan of the status effects on the map, it would be better off without them. Overall it feels like a worse version of Onsal.
I agree - I think the map has potential, but it's too big. I'd like less time running around on mounts and more time fighting. If the map were about 75% of its current size I think it would feel more organic to play in.
Made an account just to bring my feedback to the pile
The map has a lot of potential but suffer from critical flaws that have somehow been missed entirely during the QA phase.
First thing : size
The map is way to big and absolutely not mobile, its form in a cavity with one way pathways could be interesting, but it feels it was designed with giants in mind and boosted movement speed
You take more than 80 seconds to make a direct beeline between a spawn and opposing nodes on the sides, the time to engagement is way too long.
This is supposed to be PVP, yet, we need to travel ages for every engagement, and if you overstay your welcome even a few seconds, you get actively punished by node spawns being missed
Second : the nodes :
The concept behind the nodes is good, i appreciate the thought of preventing the fast node steals that can be a thing in Onsal, even though i'd claim this is a skill to steal a node efficiently and have battle awareness to spot nodes and defend them amidst the chaos
Yet here, you are clustered in very, VERY long capture with at minimum, 3 players being stuck for something north of 10 seconds. Even if you have a quick skirmish of 3 players versus 1 it means the capture can drag on to 30 seconds or up to a minute which is way to long considering the pace pvp has been taking
Furthermore, the small clustered system favors one class only : tanks
While it can be understandable that small nodes favors AOE mostly, tanks all have their own very extensive AOE package and survivability package which are mandatory to even hope to survive any time not under your own shield in one of these spots.
Thus, we have a situation where you have to spent extremely long times in a small cluster of points to capture an objective, but the vulnerability is absolutely not worth the tradeoff if your team is absent, killing an entire gameplay loop of backdooring strategies
Part 1/3 (i never knew we had a 3000 items limits)
Third : pathing
The map suffers from mobility issues already pointed in point 1, but also the pathing is quite horrendous. One way cliffs can work if everyone have them (see Shatter) but the map suffers from basically not having many avenues to engage opposing to Onsal which is extremely open. Even at game start, if your team wants to cap a node and then take a flank, its going to take so long that you need to tradeoff : take your node, or hope you move fast enough to even try to engage but put your team at extreme risk itself for a very limited payout.
Middle is a terrible case especially in snowstoms where the only shortcut is well... cut by a gigantic snowman. The idea is good, but its basically the only shortcut in the map and it's not available for a good third of the match, the design decision is questionnable at best.
The map shows the idea was studied, as emphasized by the small ledges corridors, we need more of these, create small tunnels, more precarious ledges or ways to jump from mid up to sides (being blasted off by a geyser with a tradeoff of movement for taking a fall damage as an example would work great and add interesting choices)
Fourth : the map events :
Two of them exist : snowstorms and auroras
Auroras are self explanatory, they provide LB gauge boost and are, mostly, a non issue and quite entertaining to see absurd gameplay loops go out. There are some problematic lbs that should be adressed, but this is less map and more "general pvp issues"
Snowstorms are an issue on two aspects:
1/ They block key corridors and mobility in a map already plagued by mobility issues, which needs to be adressed
2/ The aoe shields are way too powerful because of the multiplicative effect of Damage Reduction (DR)
By default, they give half the player's class hp as a shield and BH does not affect them (thankfully)
But its an unequal tool, as tanks and melee (like viper) tend to have already extremely good DR and defensive suite at their disposal
For a healer, that shield is applied with an average DR of 25%, meaning 30 000 hp means in average 37 500 effective hit points (eHP)
For a melee like reaper, it is applied with an average DR of 50%, meaning 30 000 hp means in average 60 000 eHP
But when tanks enter the equation, the maths comes to its head very quickly as DR is multiplicative in PVP from tests
Lets take a very cautious approach, a gunbreaker with heart of corundum : 60% base DR and 10% extra DR
That makes for an effective 64% of damage (60% base and 10% of the 40% incoming damage remaining)
In that case, 30 000 hp will be equivalent to 84 000 (rounded up) eHP
In itself, it means that the tankier the job is you are facing in a snowstorm, the more you are striking in the absolute wind.
Then the glaring issue reveals themselves in this logic :
a/ multiple fields can appear at the same time, with no cooldown
b/ they are very wide, and hard to miss, meaning you cannot have any counterplay of preventing an opponent from getting in them and staying in them. Stuns do nothing against the debuff, knockbacks would imply you are at the center to push the opponent away, which seem easy in theory but horrid in practice if you are not tanky (as such, i challenge bards and brave machinist to try, they will meet unfortunate demises)
There is also the dopamine issue, hitting for zeros is frustrating, especially when 3/4/5 players wail on a target that takes for 10 seconds nearly nothing, depurates, rush to another ice patch and rinse/repeat. The gameplay loop doesn't work unless you bring a monk that needs to lb to hold in place the target for 4 seconds, but doesn't solve the rest of its mana pool and toolkit. Whilst experienced players will realize the engagement is pointless, this will not be common nor easy to communicate about in chat with your teammates
For many players, this map will be their first and the feeling of being cheated against a tank or a good viper will be extreme, meaning those players will decice to simply leave content after a few matches and never touch it again. An option could be to change the ice defense to be a depurate or something else, but players need to have a bit of feedback on their hits.
The ice phase can be entirely kept, but a system of either degressive value of shields need to be put in place or simply an immunity once you used a shield for 30 seconds, meaning you can permanently upkeep a shield if you are skilled, but avoid the feeling of facing invulnerable foes when they can just do "ice hopping"
To summarize : (TL DR)
1/ Map needs to be shrunk down and pathing between nodes need a full review, less dead ends, more mobility is required to actually be able to engage in PVP
2.A/ Capture time might need a review as it only favors a "blob" logic and less of a skirmish logic, killing what tends to make for interesting multi front engagement in favor of a simple minded blob you either follow or die alone pointlessly
2.B/The amount of nodes present at the same time needs to be reduced, its current state favors an "uber and go" playstyle and not flanking/fighting unless at mid
3/ Ice shields need a review as they create a negative feedback loop for players which will most likely lead to boredom and dismissal of the gamemode
Wishing you all a happy carnage, if you manage to find your opponents in less than 5 business days
If you read all of that, cheers, see you in the frontlines
Enriel's points are astute and fall in line with what I hear other Frontline players saying.
Lest there be any doubt about the current problems, all you need to do is look at the match statistics. Damage totals in many matches are startlingly low. Players who I've never seen register below 1 million damage (and usually much higher) are suddenly closer to 500K at Worqor.
There are seeds of good ideas here, but the execution is lacking. In its present form, this is a PvP map that, sadly, discourages PvP.
This pretty much mirrors my experience. My matches have been a constant repeat of "well, we would have liked to fight over this node, but it took a minute to run over here and nodes are captured ~50 seconds after appearing, so...". I think it also doesn't help that IMO the map throws too many nodes at you. How the hell are you expecting people to fight if the map is spawning more A-rank nodes than there are teams available to capture them? I've only seen a couple of prolonged node fights and generally people are just running around like headless chickens because nodes are constantly appearing and being captured and no one can keep up
I finally got to play with this map to make up my own mind over it. My opinion isn't that negative of it, actually pretty positive overall. I think the map could become instantly great with a couple of adjustments.
The map is not too big. I could get to any node spawn fast enough. The problem comes more from other points of grievance that people have mentioned above, namely:
- The nodes start ticking down a little too fast, but more important get captured fast as well. Overall though this doesn't seem to be a big problem when there is only one or two nodes to go for, you get there on time and you fight over it and it works as intended.
- The problems start arising when there is way too many nodes that appear at once. We're not playing with coordinated teams on voice, this is a casual mode where everybody just blobs over to whatever is closest to them. This is I feel what is the main cause of people feeling that they're getting overwhelmed and having to run everywhere at once.
- I don't think having multiple points of friction cropping up at once is necessarily bad but it becomes problematic when 3 or 4 of them pop on the edges where it's a lot harder for the 3 teams to contest, and this can swing massively in favor of the team that gets them. I think the middle points are better suited for them to have multiple spawning at once because it attracts the three whole teams there at once where they can fight over those.
On the points I actually found to be big strengths of the mode so far:
- The capture system is a lot more interesting than a game of clicking. Only downside is that the circles are small, which really, really snowballs into AoE kitchen sinks (as if FL wasn't already plagued by this...). Also tends to favor tanks way too much in a mode where tanks are already gods.
- The map layout is really interesting with cliffs and ledges to play around. Jumping down from heights right onto the teams capturing the middle points feels great. I can't speak about balance so far or if the map is truly symmetrical or not I'd need more games for this, but the layout is really more interesting than the bland, flatlands of onsal. This offers a lot more strategic opportunities for flanking, etc.
Whether or not it’s ’too big’, it is a bit annoying when all the spawns are in the other side of the map and you have to very, very, very slowly make your way over there, but then the point is captured and the other teams are all running away by the time you get there so you can’t even get some sneaky kills or whatever.
I feel like there’s maybe a bit too much distance between each team and it really discourages people from actually engaging in PvP*; they just assume they won’t make it so they spend the entire match capping points right outside spawn until another team literally walks into them.
That’s the only issues I’ve had with the map so far. I thought the snowmen locking off paths on the map was an interesting idea, but it feels like they spawn in such random positions that they never actually serve any purpose beyond decoration lol. Maybe I’m missing some purpose to them?
* Regardless of what the
‘optimal point-scoring method’ is
I swear I’ve seen it spawn in the center of those bridges which did block them off, though it was a big one in the middle rather than small ones at the bridges.
I didn't even consider LOS with them but I can see the purpose now, though it still feels like they end up in such random places that there’s not really many ways to actually take advantage of them. I mean, they could be entirely fixed-position objects but they still feel random lol
Honestly, even when people are getting a pulse on it, it is too big. I have ideas for how they could add one way teleportation or whatever, but just a fundamental level of fight spaces and topography, it's too big. Shrink it by like 20%.
Other than that, yeah, I rather have fewer objectives that are worth more points. It's almost like Onsal Hakair, but not quite. You need more people to capture a node, so you can't just leave one person to secure it quickly. You really need as many people as the shape dictates to get it done quickly. This is fine, but you could easily have a quarter of the people on the map capturing something that's not being contested, nothing going on, and it's just not good gameplay. We need to increase the likelihood people are running into enemies after the same resource.
God I hate this map.
The map is insanely large and the design is convoluted.
On JP there's alot of hording because they tend to be more organised. If you commit to an objective against another GC, you're actively punished for overstaying which happens all the time because of tanks contesting objectives. Now you have to double down on the objective which means that the 3rd GC is going to snowball by going around and capturing every objective. Eventually you'll either get it or lose it and now you're still behind.
I doubt there was any legitimate playtesting for this map because if there was, they'd fall asleep by the sheer boredom of slowly and constantly having to move around.
And don't get me started on the last objectives of the match spawning on opposite sides of the map. Good god man.
This is coming from someone who has around 14000 matches on EU and JP combined and still plays Frontline only. I know some people might not like FL and I understand that but I do. This, however, is not fun. I can shit on the previous maps and their reworks but they'll never be this bad in comparison.
Worqor is a terrible map. The weather gimmick is dumb, the map is way too big and the nodes spawn too frequently. We spend most of the time running around instead of fighting like its secure. Do the devs know this is supposed to be PVP? Are they intentionally trying to make frontlines as unfun as possible? Another map to dilute the map pool so we get to play the fun maps (seal rock, onsal) even less. Makes me miss 7.1 FL even more. Redesigned secure and now this map feels like proof they don't actually want people to have fun playing frontlines anymore. Or the devs are just incompetent at designing maps.
Please just give us a seal rock/onsal queue.
Also hey devs, I have a zero effort PVP map that you could make! Just take the middle of onsal and make it a team deathmatch map. Would be much better.
Has always been the case for every other map with random objectives, namely Onsal and Seal Rock.
If they had a system that was able to reduce edge node spawns to mostly B rank nodes and made them spawn there with a weighted rate for the losing teams this could in my opinion help balance out games vs teams that steamroll everything. Ideally you'd want all the biggest nodes spawn closer to the central clusters on all those maps to encourage big 3 way engagements.
Yes, this is true but it's not as punishing as it is on this map. You can at least get to the objective if it spawns on the opposite side...at least a few of us and contest it. Now it's just pointless. You got to choose your poison now. The real issue is the distance, it's just wild.
Increase mount speed, add jumping pads like on Secure, remove objectives on outer parts of the map late game, reduce the size (they won't) and so on. If they playtested it, we'd get a better map for sure.
Also, on JP you get into more 1v1 than a three way fights. if someone is commanding with countdowns and disengaging in one team, you'll suffer real good.
The main trouble with this mode is the speed.
I really love the idea of controlling the point to capture it, but there's those two issues with speed:
1. The points spawn very quickly.
2. The points are captured and come online very quickly.
I think the first issue is a non-issue, having many points online is good. Like there is some cases for not every point being a bloobath like in Onsal and making the matches not one-sided. But I think the second point is more troublesome- if your team wants to contest a point because it's behind, it might just take too long to get there since the time between the point showing up and becoming capturing is so short, and the time to capture it also being so short. On that note; during the end of the match, there should be more S rank points.
Overall though, I really like the mode, I appreciate the map not being symmetrical and being pretty interesting to navigate especially. I was worried after that Shatter remake, but it's a nice map for the rotation.
I'll have to run it more but from what I've seen the map was the exact same size than the other ones. It's definitely more a problem of pace than a problem of distance.
Random idea but what if they stuck some of those jump platforms from Borderland Ruins: Secure* around the map? Have them randomly activate or whatever and let us catapult ourselves around the map to get to nodes / action faster lol. Plus it’d be kinda funny watching people shoot across the map
* whichever one the first PvP map was lol
I ran another one today. Didn't have longer travel times than on other similarly layered maps like Seal Rock or Fields of Glory. They all have a similar amount of walls/cliffs and blockers.
I'm firmly into the camp that the main issue is the pace of node spawn and capture, this is way, way too fast and does only allow for very short bursts of actual pvp until next node(s) arrive, sometimes 2 or 3 A-ranks at once, and sometimes all on the same side. It's unhinged.
It is new and it is fine... just gotta get used to it is all ^^
I like it it plays well.
I don't like this map. Everyone is too busy trying to lick nodes than actually do PvP. The amount of times my team abandoned me just to turn tail and go lick a node is ridiculous. This might as well be Shatter 2.0.
Take away the nodes and let it be full on nothing but a slaughterfest.
https://i.imgur.com/BwMT48J.jpeg
Initial impressions: Map is too big which makes natural 2v1s uncommon due to people simply not being in position. That's why clown fiesta scores like this are possible - where one alliance keeps losing all their fights 1v1, and there's no 3rd party to break things up and maintain equilibrium because they're on the other side of the map.
Weather effects aren't fun or random enough. I'd like to see at least, like, 3 more types of weather effects because currently matches feel very samey. Stuff like,
Heat waves: Self explanatory
Rain: Turns the outer map into impassable rivers so you're forced to use the middle to get around - the opposite of snow.
Thunderstorms: Periodic circle aoes
Wind: Movement speed increased
1. One thing I've noticed in this map is that a lot of A ranks can spawn at the same time (and sometimes on the same side), which I feel cheapens their value (compared to A ranks in Onsal). Worqor made them feel like a commodity rather than a rarity which you must fight over. Couple that with the pathing others have mentioned here, and it makes fighting for them fairly difficult.
2. The ice shields for me (50% for 30 seconds) feel a bit too OP. Either make the amount smaller or the duration shorter?
3. Also we need more weather conditions (like what Myon suggested), but make their sequence random. Right now it's predictable that snow will come first before auroras. I think adding wind would be nice for the movement speed as well.
Did more of this, this strengthens my view that there is way too many nodes spawning at once. I understand that this was probably made so that teams would split more but in reality when splits happen you end up having a team split vs 2 teams that are not resulting in a crushing defeat on both ends. This also is a regular issue on Onsal by the way and one of the few weaknesses of the map, where you see in the opener nodes spawn on two sides for one team only, which usually results in said team to split between both and face both teams on two fronts, which results in a total rout and have said team eventually sandwiched to death.
Imagining that peppering the area with too many nodes to overwhelm blobbing only plays more into blobbing imo because you'll always have blobs of different sizes steamrolling the smaller ones: in reality this doesn't split teams fairly at all.
Yeah, it's not enjoyable to play. I'd say I'm about 100 matches in and struggle to find anything positive to say.
It's exhausting and stressful. Even when you win, there's no joy. It doesn't feel deserved.
https://iili.io/f1Gqq7e.jpg
I did not have time to contest it LOL