Classes too similar and some have useless extra buttons. Needs big rework.

I was looking at Sage and Scholar abilities to decide which one I wanted to play. I noticed they had mostly the same exact skills. Feels like class choice is more about aesthetic than actual gameplay style.
The same issue exists with other classes in the same role. It makes them feel bland.

Another problem is that some classes have a lot of pointless buttons. Dragoon has 7 skills for its 2 single target combos that mostly do the same thing. All of them are a single target hit. They can be compressed into 2 buttons. One button to apply the debuff+bleed and the other one changes to the next action each time you click it, the same way it works in pvp. These are fake choices and fake skills. Each skill should bring a unique purpose to the table. When I play Astrologian, every single button is useful and has a unique purpose and I choose which to use based on the situation. Red mage's air/stone and thunder/fire spells are also duplicates of each other and the black/white mana bar is just flavor.

All the classes need to have a big rework done on them. Make them unique and very different from each other and streamline their abilities instead of having lots of useless buttons that do the same thing.


Here are some examples of what each class can be:
Melee DPS:
Dragoon could have many mobility abilities with low cooldown that also build momentum for big burst and help engage/evade and minimize down time and make greedy plays. It can have longer melee reach because lance is long.
Reaper can be a durable and self-sustaining dps with shields and some life-steal.
Ninja can be versatile and adaptable with various effects based on seal combinations, like gaining damage mitigation, damage buff, debuffing the enemy, or teleporting, or boosting, saving teammate from death with clone replacement, etc.
Monk can be the one that rewards you for doing combos and positionals and gives team buffs
Samurai can be a glass cannon with little utility and evasion but extra damage output.

Healers:
Astro a proactive burst healer with buffs and lots of regen like it is now.
White mage can be basic, straight forward reactive healing. Big flat heals and minor regen. Can build up for an extra large heal by charging meter with dps. Just basic straight forward gameplay.
Sage can be a reactive shielder like the shield equivalent of white mage. Shield when needed, and build up big shields and passive healing by doing damage.
Scholar can be the proactive planner type shielder with less of a focus on dealing damage and more focus on preparing triggers and mitigation.

Tanks:
Dark knight: Barrier based tank. Can shield self or allies. Has minor lifesteal. Mechanics to help upkeep barrier, split agro with shadow to buy time for small heals and stay healthy.
Warrior: Selfish straight forward lifesteal tanking. Do damage, get healed, cling to life.
Paladin: Damage mitigation to self and team with occasional shield blocking and health regen.
Gunbreaker: Attack enemies to charge aether magic shells. Mix different combinations of shells to produce different effects like small shields, small heals, mitigation, enemy debuff, etc. Versatile all-rounder.

it became that way because players were saying it was too complicated for jobs like scholars, astros, and other jobs. so they started the homogenization of classes. alot of those job you have down for examples is what they use to do so to speak.

Yeah, even a very simple job like PCT has redundant buttons.

> wow has the equivalent of 40 classes and even the worst among them is more engaging than the best ffxiv job

how does blizzard keep getting away with it

I will never agree with the idea of SCH ceding the damage healer archetype to an underbaked as hell mechanic like kardia when SCH had been the damage healer for 4 expansions longer than SGE has even been in the game

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hydralus

Yeah, even a very simple job like PCT has redundant buttons.

---

PCT's big sin is having two sets of buttons that do the exact same thing but under mutually exclusive conditions. Instead of one set that only works under buffs and another set that only works without buffs, there should just be one set that upgrades automatically during buffs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NegativeS

> wow has the equivalent of 40 classes and even the worst among them is more engaging than the best ffxiv job

how does blizzard keep getting away with it

---

I am not sure, but even Devastation Evokers have just a single hotbar they use at best - They literally just need to keep a beam channeling going.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MsMisato

it became that way because players were saying it was too complicated for jobs like scholars, astros, and other jobs. so they started the homogenization of classes. alot of those job you have down for examples is what they use to do so to speak.

---

what's the logic? Does every class have to appeal to everyone? If those players prefer simple classes, was there none of those for them to play?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I will never agree with the idea of SCH ceding the damage healer archetype to an underbaked as hell mechanic like kardia when SCH had been the damage healer for 4 expansions longer than SGE has even been in the game

---

That's fine. SCH can dps to heal and Sage can be whatever else. Just need some difference between them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NegativeS

> wow has the equivalent of 40 classes and even the worst among them is more engaging than the best ffxiv job

how does blizzard keep getting away with it

---

I played WoW and every single button was useful and had a distinct purpose. I had a spec with maybe 20-30 different buttons and all had their place. I had another spec with maybe 15 buttons and a bunch of passives which was fine. There was no bloat and fake options. Everything about the current classes and their abilities feel like fake choice.
I contemplate playing it again because it has such a nice combat system and movement and freedom and complexity with high skill ceiling, but the company sucks and the game design does not respect your time at all, and the mythic key down-grade system is toxic and time wasting af. You just can't play how you want to play. Gotta keep it up like a part-time job or you fall behind and can't do anything anymore because everyone wants top scores to minimize suffering the toxic systems that for some reason Blizzard refuses to fix. People already pay monthly sub but they still have to farm gold like a part time job to afford raid buffs and legendary gear crafting and all that. Do it all again for each alt you have too.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zered

what's the logic? Does every class have to appeal to everyone? If those players prefer simple classes, was there none of those for them to play?

---

The logic was to take difficulty and identity away from jobs to make them easier and increase the difficulty of high end content to compensate. The idea was this would be a middle-ground that would make everyone happy. The players saying the jobs were too hard would now have an easier time and the harder fights would keep the savage raiders happy despite the easier jobs.

This however was a massive mistake and only now are we really seeing the consequences. The end result is we have very difficult hardcore content most of the players aren't prepared for due to lack of midcore content to act as a bridge and all of the jobs are brainless boring reskins. They listened to a loud minority and it is now destroying the game. They should have told them "git gud" but instead tried to make everyone happy with a short-sighted change in design direction which obviously bit them in the ass. Here's hoping they can still fix it, but I'll believe it when I see it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aidorouge

It's either simple jobs/complex fights or complex jobs/simple fights. Pick your poison.

---

This has ultimatum hasn't proven anything but false across the whole of WoW, GW2, or XIV, just to name even just a (nonetheless representative) few.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aidorouge

Considering there's been people who quit in large swathes over the last year because they either:

A. Got bored of the simple jobs.

Or

B. Got frustrated by the complex fights.

I can rightly guess that "got bored of the simple fights" and "got frustrated by the complex jobs" is equally likely to happen, and that "simple jobs/simple fights" and "complex jobs/complex fights" probably won't go over well either.

---

It doesn't have to be so extreme. There isn't only "braindead" and "bull$%#@". We can have jobs with fair complexity and fights with fair complexity to match if the devs actually gave a damn.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zered

I played WoW and every single button was useful and had a distinct purpose. I had a spec with maybe 20-30 different buttons and all had their place. I had another spec with maybe 15 buttons and a bunch of passives which was fine. There was no bloat and fake options. Everything about the current classes and their abilities feel like fake choice.

---

There will be button pruning coming the next expansion to combat ability bloat and detangle some classes and their unnecessary high complexity - Especially on the healers, since need to manage a lot of buttons to perform decently on their role.

So yeah, they get heavily downsized as well. And put more responsibility to the DPS as nearly all healers now lose their interrupt/kick.

And I think that's fine.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zered

Dragoon has 7 skills for its 2 single target combos that mostly do the same thing. All of them are a single target hit. They can be compressed into 2 buttons. One button to apply the debuff+bleed and the other one changes to the next action each time you click it, the same way it works in pvp.

---

As a DRG main this would be an absolutely horrendous change. The looping combo is one of the defining aspects of the job. DRG already got lobotomized this expansion, they don't need to remove even more from it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arrius

There will be button pruning coming the next expansion to combat ability bloat and detangle some classes and their unnecessary high complexity

---

So they've come full circle to another ability prune era. That worked out so well the first time I'm sure it'll be great! :rolleyes:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zered

I contemplate playing it again because it has such a nice combat system and movement and freedom and complexity with high skill ceiling, but the company sucks and the game design does not respect your time at all, and the mythic key down-grade system is toxic and time wasting af. You just can't play how you want to play. Gotta keep it up like a part-time job or you fall behind and can't do anything anymore because everyone wants top scores to minimize suffering the toxic systems that for some reason Blizzard refuses to fix. People already pay monthly sub but they still have to farm gold like a part time job to afford raid buffs and legendary gear crafting and all that. Do it all again for each alt you have too.

---

i've long been saying that all you'd need to make the perfect MMO is to mash the best parts of WoW and FFXIV together, both games are the best in the industry at exactly half of what they do. from WoW, the content diversity, engaging combat and class design, and gameplay customizability from races, specializations, talent trees, gear, etc. from XIV, the player expression, character-focused story, and casual prog. get a competent CS team from somewhere else and an artstyle to bridge the gap between WoW's timeless cartooniness and FFXIV's anime-realism, and you have the ingredients for an actual forever MMO

it seems like WoW has actually been making moves to fill in the gaps recently with the addition of player housing, a reasonable start to advanced emotes, and the introduction of higher level rewards through things like crafting and world activity... though still nobody at blizzard knows how to write a compelling story, apparently you have to be japanese or french to pull that off these days. regardless, i'm still honestly excited to see what comes of the IP after the end of the Worldsoul Saga, if anything

FFXIV is very much set in its ways though, and it will be the game's downfall. at this point they need to oust whoever is hiding in the corporate hierarchy yanking all the strings that keep the devs from implementing fun or interesting content in favor of max profit. despite how much i hate on him, i know it isn't yoshi, he's just the mouthpiece...

When it comes to button bloat and combo condensing discussions, it's always fascinating to watch both sides harping at each other without being unable to understand each other. One side sees button bloat as a problem of redundancy and a lack of mechanical purpose - pvp combos would work the same with less buttons because they're all used in the same scenario anyway. The other side sees the amount of buttons as part of tactile feel and memorization not too dissimilar to playing an instrument.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CidHeiral

As a DRG main this would be an absolutely horrendous change. The looping combo is one of the defining aspects of the job. DRG already got lobotomized this expansion, they don't need to remove even more from it. :

---

No it wouldn't be horrible. They can add different abilities that actual do stuff instead of Single target attack #1, #2, #3, #4,#5,#6. Are we really going to pretend this is engaging gameplay?

In WoW you have an aoe that does slow, an aoe that does pure damage, a quick single target shot, a slow single target shot, a slower but bigger single target shot, mechanics to proc instant casting or mobile casting, crowd control abilities, defensive abilities, debuffs, buffs, utilities like evasion or cleanse or buff steal, etc. You use them all as appropriate as the combat situation changes and as enemies take certain actions.

In ff14 you have 10 buttons that do the same exact thing and we want to pretend we 'defining aspects' or actual gameplay? I doze off running dungeons because all you do is walk forward and then spam 3-6 buttons in rotation and throw in a few oGCD in between every few seconds that generally do the same thing the GCD is doing. Rinse and repeat until you get to the boss and hopefully that boss is in later expansions and has interesting mechanics instead of the usual aoe/cone/tank buster that all the early game bosses do.

You know what's funny? Pvp only has 6 class skills and 6 pvp actions and it is more engaging and dynamic than regular gameplay. Each button does a unique thing. You decide to go in or dip out, block damage, heal up, stall, LB, regular damage, burst damage, etc. So few buttons but so much strategy and engagement. You can dive into a crowd and kill someone and somehow make it out alive by playing your cards right.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zered

No it wouldn't be horrible. They can add different abilities that actual do stuff instead of Single target attack #1, #2, #3, #4,#5,#6. Are we really going to pretend this is engaging gameplay?

In WoW you have an aoe that does slow, an aoe that does pure damage, a quick single target shot, a slow single target shot, a slower but bigger single target shot, mechanics to proc instant casting or mobile casting, crowd control abilities, defensive abilities, debuffs, buffs, utilities like evasion or cleanse or buff steal, etc. You use them all as appropriate as the combat situation changes and as enemies take certain actions.

In ff14 you have 10 buttons that do the same exact thing and we want to pretend we 'defining aspects' or actual gameplay? I doze off running dungeons because all you do is walk forward and then spam 3-6 buttons in rotation and throw in a few oGCD in between every few seconds that generally do the same thing the GCD is doing. Rinse and repeat until you get to the boss and hopefully that boss is in later expansions and has interesting mechanics instead of the usual aoe/cone/tank buster that all the early game bosses do.

You know what's funny? Pvp only has 6 class skills and 6 pvp actions and it is more engaging and dynamic than regular gameplay. Each button does a unique thing. You decide to go in or dip out, block damage, heal up, stall, LB, regular damage, burst damage, etc. So few buttons but so much strategy and engagement. You can dive into a crowd and kill someone and somehow make it out alive by playing your cards right.

---

Believe me when I say that I've been advocating for exactly the same paradigm that you describe. But at this point I think that's not the game FF14 wants to be anymore.

See my reply just above. We want to be challenged intellectually, but the current audience of the game wants to be challenged on rote memorization.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zered

No it wouldn't be horrible. They can add different abilities that actual do stuff instead of Single target attack #1, #2, #3, #4,#5,#6. Are we really going to pretend this is engaging gameplay?

In WoW you have an aoe that does slow, an aoe that does pure damage, a quick single target shot, a slow single target shot, a slower but bigger single target shot, mechanics to proc instant casting or mobile casting, crowd control abilities, defensive abilities, debuffs, buffs, utilities like evasion or cleanse or buff steal, etc. You use them all as appropriate as the combat situation changes and as enemies take certain actions.

---

WoW's closest analogue to DRG are the Arms/Fury Warrior specs, both of which center around hitting the equivalent of Lance Charge then spamming 2-3 single target attacks on cooldown until it's time to do step one again. The "combat situation" changes that very little. Of course there are classes with more going on than that, but the game isn't the universal paragon of deep class design that you're making it out to be.

I totally agree that FFXIV's job design is currently in an awful state, but FFXIV jobs don't need to become WoW classes, they need to return to their own roots. Feedback demanding jobs turn into totally different jobs is a significant factor in what got us here to begin with.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zered

You know what's funny? Pvp only has 6 class skills and 6 pvp actions and it is more engaging and dynamic than regular gameplay. Each button does a unique thing. You decide to go in or dip out, block damage, heal up, stall, LB, regular damage, burst damage, etc. So few buttons but so much strategy and engagement. You can dive into a crowd and kill someone and somehow make it out alive by playing your cards right.

---

That is because you're fighting real people. Those same kits immediately become incredibly boring when you're playing Shatter and hammering 1111111211111111 on a block of ice.

The lesson SE should learn from the success of the PvP kits isn't that jobs should all have four buttons, it's that giving each job unique and engaging gameplay unlike all the other jobs is very fun. That used to be the case in PvE as well.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NegativeS

> wow has the equivalent of 40 classes and even the worst among them is more engaging than the best ffxiv job

how does blizzard keep getting away with it

---

Just looking at Wow Vanilla and it's already more fun and engaging than ffxiv ever will be.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zered

No it wouldn't be horrible. They can add different abilities that actual do stuff instead of Single target attack #1, #2, #3, #4,#5,#6. Are we really going to pretend this is engaging gameplay?

In WoW you have an aoe that does slow, an aoe that does pure damage, a quick single target shot, a slow single target shot, a slower but bigger single target shot, mechanics to proc instant casting or mobile casting, crowd control abilities, defensive abilities, debuffs, buffs, utilities like evasion or cleanse or buff steal, etc. You use them all as appropriate as the combat situation changes and as enemies take certain actions.

In ff14 you have 10 buttons that do the same exact thing and we want to pretend we 'defining aspects' or actual gameplay? I doze off running dungeons because all you do is walk forward and then spam 3-6 buttons in rotation and throw in a few oGCD in between every few seconds that generally do the same thing the GCD is doing. Rinse and repeat until you get to the boss and hopefully that boss is in later expansions and has interesting mechanics instead of the usual aoe/cone/tank buster that all the early game bosses do.

You know what's funny? Pvp only has 6 class skills and 6 pvp actions and it is more engaging and dynamic than regular gameplay. Each button does a unique thing. You decide to go in or dip out, block damage, heal up, stall, LB, regular damage, burst damage, etc. So few buttons but so much strategy and engagement. You can dive into a crowd and kill someone and somehow make it out alive by playing your cards right.

---

Ye but pvp has also turned into a big mess with recent changes and making certain classes stronger than others. Scholar is just dominating now and it's super easy to play it. Even with mega bad players, you can consistently shield them forever and they will do the job. Try doing same with whm and you will fail every single time because scholar outheals you by a mile. Same with Astro and sage, can do wonders with recent changes. This all makes many games stall and very boring to play with insane amount of heals + shields. It used to be better. Purify changes also that nobody asked for kek.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zered

Pvp only has 6 class skills and 6 pvp actions and it is more engaging and dynamic than regular gameplay.

---

Go to the Wolves' Den, and try your favorite PvP kit against one of the striking dummies. You'll be bored to tears.

It's not the kits that make PvP engaging and dynamic. It's the encounter design -- namely, the other players. The kits merely exist in service of that design.

The same is true of PvE. For example: why does BLM today have no timers, shortened cast times, and a million tools to avoid standing in one spot? Because modern encounter design demands it.

Quote:

---

In WoW you have an aoe that does slow, an aoe that does pure damage, a quick single target shot, a slow single target shot, a slower but bigger single target shot, mechanics to proc instant casting or mobile casting, crowd control abilities, defensive abilities, debuffs, buffs, utilities like evasion or cleanse or buff steal, etc. You use them all as appropriate as the combat situation changes and as enemies take certain actions.

---

The key observation here is, "as the combat situation changes." Until FFXIV encounters become more dynamic and variable (the combat situation is always: stand in the correct spot), there's little reason for PvE kits to have anything other than 53 variations on "deal damage to target."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CidHeiral

That is because you're fighting real people. Those same kits immediately become incredibly boring when you're playing Shatter and hammering 1111111211111111 on a block of ice.

---

Okay but... is pve supposed to be like hitting a block of ice? Because if so that actually explains so much... and raises even more questions about the playerbase.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valence

Believe me when I say that I've been advocating for exactly the same paradigm that you describe. But at this point I think that's not the game FF14 wants to be anymore.

See my reply just above. We want to be challenged intellectually, but the current audience of the game wants to be challenged on rote memorization.

---

do they though? So many people complain about homogenized classes and all that. A repetitive similar pattern of rote memorization is part of the complaint of homogenized classes because at that point, you are doing the same thing with the only difference being the animations that come out of your clicks.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AmiableApkallu

Go to the Wolves' Den, and try your favorite PvP kit against one of the striking dummies. You'll be bored to tears.

It's not the kits that make PvP engaging and dynamic. It's the encounter design -- namely, the other players. The kits merely exist in service of that design.

The same is true of PvE. For example: why does BLM today have no timers, shortened cast times, and a million tools to avoid standing in one spot? Because modern encounter design demands it.

The key observation here is, "as the combat situation changes." Until FFXIV encounters become more dynamic and variable (the combat situation is always: stand in the correct spot), there's little reason for PvE kits to have anything other than 53 variations on "deal damage to target."

---

I agree. My point in bringing up those facts about pvp was more to point out that getting rid of all the fake extra buttons does not make the job worse. They can be replaced with ones that do something interesting. It's true that encounters should be improved too, idk if anything can be done for the older bosses that we have to keep fighting in roulette but maybe it is worth touching them up. The dungeon adds are another issue. Always the same "gather them up then stand around and spam aoe button" no matter at what level. One interesting change might be to let people keep all their abilities that they unlocked even in lower level dungeons but apply a down-scale of potency. That way people can still play their class as normal instead of being reduced to only having 5 buttons to use and having their muscle memory from a full setup messed with.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zered

do they though? So many people complain about homogenized classes and all that. A repetitive similar pattern of rote memorization is part of the complaint of homogenized classes because at that point, you are doing the same thing with the only difference being the animations that come out of your clicks.

---

I think I've seen enough comments even on those forums to know that yes, a lot of people absolutely refuse for the model to change, even if they're complaining about job identity and homogenization.

And I think they're fooling themselves if they think this can be magically solved without addressing the core issue which is encounter model and the battle system as a whole.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valence

I think I've seen enough comments even on those forums to know that yes, a lot of people absolutely refuse for the model to change, even if they're complaining about job identity and homogenization.

And I think they're fooling themselves if they think this can be magically solved without addressing the core issue which is encounter model and the battle system as a whole.

---

Perhaps it is better for devs to ignore such people. They only complain either way and prevent anything from ever getting fixed

I'm ready to bet that the 8.0 job shake up we'll see is going to be 100% focused on tactile feeling and class customization between different rotational sequence types. They're not going to suddenly change their current direction because that's what their current audience wants. They may have done it in the past when it came to their older audience but back then they had the benefit of still riding the wave if their game's success so it probably felt ok to butcher everything and bring up their new direction that started in SB for encounters and in ShB for job systems that's stayed since then.

That and older content would get in the way of major reworks anyway.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CidHeiral

WoW's closest analogue to DRG are the Arms/Fury Warrior specs, both of which center around hitting the equivalent of Lance Charge then spamming 2-3 single target attacks on cooldown until it's time to do step one again. The "combat situation" changes that very little. Of course there are classes with more going on than that, but the game isn't the universal paragon of deep class design that you're making it out to be.

---

They're literally not, though?

Maybe come Midnight, but at present? Not remotely.

Even if we limit discussion to PvE -- or further to, say, M+ -- there is significant difference between an IcyVeins recommended APL (action priority list) and actual optimal play because of the timings of when new mobs will be pulled into the fray, when they'll die off, the focus damage required to avoid a shield being (re)cast or a hard hit going out, etc., etc.

And while Arms was massively simplified compared to DF (where it had Cleave as a situational ST skill in Fatality builds, Whirlwind as a nuke even for in ST that needed enough banked Rage to support atop a potentially immediately following Execute or Mortal Strike, Thunder Clap separately from Rend since the latter still had a decent enough direct damage efficiency bonus while TC had more Rage expenditure, Ignore Pain's oGCD defensive as a potential generator for Tactician procs due to its Rage cost that hadn't yet been excluded, and your execute rotation depended on how much you wanted to accelerate or delay your main CDs vs. getting slightly more damage-efficiency out), it still has...

• Bankable procced nukes (Sudden Death Executes) that can align multiplicative damage bonuses (Executioner's Precision) with 3 to 5 other sources (Martial Prowess, Follow-through, Avatar, Colossus Smash, and Brutal Finish or Demolish) on your rotational nuke, for which there is a huge amount foresight required in
• Said rotational nuke (Mortal Strike). Applies a DoT at least twice its cooldown in length, allowing one to maintain it across multiple enemies. Buffable (some additive, some multiplicative, therefore branching between quick and all in strats in a given rotational string with upcoming affecting CDs) via a variety of sources.
• Rotational AoE [optional] (Cleave). Also applies the above DoT, but at a loss at under 4 enemies except in certain builds or under certain conditions.
• An AoE filler [optional] (Whirlwind). Now mutually exclusive with Cleave, above.
• A second 2-charge rotational CD whose refresh chance scales with resource spent and the priority of which vs. Mortal Strike varies with resource scarcity, CD alignment (especially between Colossus Smash and Demolish or CS and Bladestorm), other multiplicatively synergetic stacks, etc.
• A filler.
• An empowered filler usable against enemies under 20/35% and stacks a buff to itself a la old Greased Lightning (but rising to 15 stacks) and usable early via procs (two sets thereof for the Execute-centric hero spec).
• A separate DoT, single-target, to be maintained.
• A backup AoE for resource excess before 35% and which applies Rend to up to 5 enemies though at lesser efficiency at 2 or fewer enemies.
• A GCD-CD blow that amps damage for 10 seconds that is accelerated by resource-spending and therefore cannot naturally sync to other CDs.
• An oGCD-CD that amps damage for 20 seconds and can opt into further rotation-affecting buffs.
• A channeled AoE CD that can amp Cleave and Whirlwind damage and next Mortal Strike. Accelerated by resource-spending and therefore cannot naturally sync to other CDs.
• A second 45s or 90s AoE CD that amplifies bleeds or critical strike damage, favoring certain other rotationals in its brief amp window thereafter.
• A gap-closer weavable for resource efficiency or saveable for actual gap-closing needs. Two charges.
• A second long-CD gap-closer that can be used to make the first more efficient in gap-closing.
• Active trinket.
• A 15s window of single-target attacks cleaving a second enemy and buffing the next cast of your rotational/filler AoE thereafter, allowing for exceedingly elaborate setup and CD-sync considerations.
• And I'm still skipping several aspects.

That is, I have to worry about several overlapping layers of sync, likely tank pull timings and pathing, where I'd have to be for interrupts and at what spreads/gathers, who else is going to burst at that time to guess at TTKs, when I'd have to bait shit out, etc., etc., all with rotational significance on optimal (even if not average) play and therefore requiring one to be able to quickly benchmark branching options across the string, up to the completion of the next CD, the next moderate burst, the next full burst, etc., and even on how to break up those bursts for max effect given the dungeon route.

And Fury has scarcely any less going on.

You can argue that such is cognitively bloated, with too large an effort gap between having learned well enough to do most things decently and having actually mastered a given spec, or perhaps even that the complexity should be less or even more hidden from players so they don't overcomplicate the basics for themselves or can better move up from said basics without either among a guide or actually playing the game in real content for any reasonable duration. And that's probably why WoW's seeing most specs' skill ceilings get gutted in Midnight, for better or worse. But alas...

I'd still generally take that over merely button-bloated.

And XIV IS button-bloated -- or better put imo, XIV fails to significantly leverage its variety of skills. It's not merely lacking interesting contexts for interesting play, though that is a huge part. The foundation of how most jobs are built up, especially via combos, does not lend itself to skills being individually or synergetically of interest, only pieces each of singular rote decisions.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

They're literally not, though?

---

I played an Arms Warrior in a server first raiding guild for many years and on my own as recently as Dragonflight. Calling the class "cognitively bloated" might be the funniest sentence I've read all year. Writing long-winded over-explanations for simple things like Sweeping Strikes doesn't make them deep. You may fool some of the people here that don't know any better but we both know it's an incredibly simple class. :p

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

And XIV IS button-bloated -- or, better put imo, failing to significantly leveraging its variety of skills. It's not merely lacking interesting contexts for interesting play, though that is a huge part. The foundation of how most jobs are built up, especially via combos, does not lend itself to skills being individually or synergetically of interest, only pieces each of singular rote decisions.

---

I totally agree that FFXIV jobs are very boring right now and could use more interesting skills and decision making. I disagree that DRG's looping combo would need to be turned into two buttons to accomplish that, or that FFXIV jobs should emulate WoW class design.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CidHeiral

I played an Arms Warrior in a server first raiding guild for many years and on my own as recently as Dragonflight. Calling the class "cognitively bloated" might be the funniest sentence I've read all year. Writing long-winded over-explanations for simple things like Sweeping Strikes doesn't make them deep. You may fool some of the people here that don't know any better but we both know it's an incredibly simple class. :p

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CidHeiral

raiding

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

M+

---

And there's half your Shatter vs. Crystalline Conflict difference in a nutshell, just in PvE.

Nor did I call the "class" (which Arms is not) cognitively bloated. I (with notable sarcasm) said that one could call those minitial optimizations cognitive bloat (despite their being pretty much exactly the goal of mantras like "easy to learn, difficult to master") simply because their relative reward is poor.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CidHeiral

I disagree that DRG's looping combo would need to be turned into two buttons to accomplish that, or that FFXIV jobs should emulate WoW class design.

---

Cool. Literally not a thing I said to do. Even the latter isn't something I even hinted at beyond the likes of 'maybe these 7 buttons (True-Vorpal-Full-Fang/Drake-Bowel-Chaos-Wheeling) should be more than just seven rote parts of what amounts to the same action in 96+% of content'.

Which, yes, is a problem above and beyond a game's encounters themselves being dull; that failure to leverage those skills limits the actual design space available to us not to the dozen+ attacks we ostensibly have but the ~4-7 actions (ST-direct, ST-CD/DoT, AoE, 5-gcd bankable, stacked-CD-1+2+3, gap-closing attack, etc.) they actually amount to.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valence

When it comes to button bloat and combo condensing discussions, it's always fascinating to watch both sides harping at each other without being unable to understand each other. One side sees button bloat as a problem of redundancy and a lack of mechanical purpose - pvp combos would work the same with less buttons because they're all used in the same scenario anyway. The other side sees the amount of buttons as part of tactile feel and memorization not too dissimilar to playing an instrument.

---

Pretty sure that's been well understood for plenty of people on each side. The problem is in the cohabitation. If players who prefer skill-expression to come more from foresight and ingenuity than accuracy of rote button-presses get the high value-per-button they want without penalty, then one can only be punished for playing with a full key-set. And if there were any compensation for that extra skill requirement, such as by decreasing output by some faint % when playing with compressed keys, then those who don't think the "button bloat" should be part of the game at all would complain.

There's a skill expressor that some want and others don't but no one wants to accept some sort of compensatory punishment for not interacting with what they don't think should be part of the game anyways nor does anyone want to be punished for partaking in optional skill expression.

The only way we can really meet both requirements is something that uses about as many keys but far less wastefully (e.g., replacing strict "combos" with actual varied and situationally-valued skill synergies), but half of each side then calls that "too Action-game-y".

When I play AST, I hardly ever use the cards. It's like a lesser WHM with a Pokemon deck.