Paladin: Reworking Niche Skills

In almost every discussion related to Paladin, Niche skills like (Shield Bash) and (Cover) are talked about with varied opinions, some are even viewing them as useless and calls for their removal.

i believe these skills can be reworked to be fun and engaging, and to some extent contributes to the (Shield Tank) fantasy, here are my suggestions:

1. Shield Bash: change it to an ability with a 20 Sec. cooldown, and in addition to the CD, to activate you will need 5 "Block" stacks, which are gained with every successful block.

2. Shield Smite (From PVP): an upgrade to Shield bash, stuns the main target only but damages all nearby targets in a cone aoe, similarly, it will require 5 "Block" stacks.

now my suggestion above will only work if you are MTing, but what happens when you are not? that's where (Covers) comes in:

1. Cover: acts similar to the SGE Kardia, you place "Cover" Status on a party member, blocking 10% of their received damage, block is not guaranteed and is affected by PLD Block rate.

2. Full Cover: same as the current "Cover" that we have, take all damage intended for the party member, lasts for 10 Sec. and is on 120 Sec. CD.

now i know that PLD has enough button bloat as discussed many times, but i believe there are many useful suggestions that were raised by others, to name some:

1. make the (123) combo a single combo button, and the (Atonement) combo on another button.

2. remove "intervention" and make "Sheltron/holy sheltron" targetable.

3. make "Holy Circle" a direct upgrade to "Holy Spirit", either a full upgrade or let "Divine Might" Transforms "H.Spirit" to "H.Circle".

let me know what you think?

Agree with the 123 combo merge.

I've tried PLD for the 1st time leveling it all the way and found really weird that the 123 combo is separate, but the Atonement combo, which serves exactly to the same purpose is a merged button.

It's a bit controversial, but I think 123 combos that don't interact anything else, like creating branching paths, should probably be merged.

I'd definitely like to see the shield be used for more than just passive blocks. I'd also like the identity of PLD to shift away from being this unlimited bladeworks caster thing. The Atonement combo is a good foundation for what the class should be. Shield bash and smite could absolutely be weaved in.

I... kinda like these, actually. Here my take on the implementations if you don't mind.

Shield Bash & Shield Smite - Essentially you turned them into usable oGCD actions that extend beyond "press for Stun on demand but is awful for damage". The requirement of block stacks (amount can be adjusted/balanced) prevents excessive spamming (it should still have a bit of an internal cooldown like 5-10 seconds due to Bulwark + AOE packs) but is overall fitting well into the shield focus. Usually the "you have to block" means this would cement Paladin into Main Tank, but...

Cover & Full Cover - Cover being a "here is a chance this target receives a weaker version of my block, which I can guarantee with Bulwark" is an interesting spin without having to risk Full Cover i.e. taking their debuffs + full damage, which you still kept around (hopefully without Oath cost), so bravo on that! I REALLY like this.

Royal Authority/Rage of Halone combo merge - where do I sign that this happens YESTERDAY? Yes please. Same for Prominence (AOE) combo and all other basic combos. (or at least give me the OPTION to).

Merging Sheltron + Intervention - Hard pass. Intervention actually has a mechanic that creates synergy with you using Rampart or Sentinel/Guardian and I'd rather not that flavour go away. Furthermore, a merge of these two will inevitably lead to an internal cooldown of 1-2 seconds being added (see Oblation) to prevent rapid represses triggering multiple times by accident. This change *only* benefits players that do not macro their target mitigation to save hotbar space.

Holy Spirit -> Holy Circle - "I guess" but admittedly I prefer the split. Holy Circle is easier to use on a group of mobs as it its around you, but Holy Spirit is a ranged attack. You could make it a ranged AOE attack like Confiteor, but not sure how much I'd like this since you essentially "combo" it from Prominence.

I’m not really seeing the point in cover vs full cover when basic cover is basically just intervene (unless you mean it lasts permanently like kardia which is just way too powerful because outside of recovery you basically have just given the shield healer permanent mitigation)

So I see that solution as either too powerful or just a weak equivalent to intervene

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I’m not really seeing the point in cover vs full cover when basic cover is basically just intervene (unless you mean it lasts permanently like kardia which is just way too powerful because outside of recovery you basically have just given the shield healer permanent mitigation)

So I see that solution as either too powerful or just a weak equivalent to intervene

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Their Kardia-Cover is a 20%-ish chance to mitigate for 10% - its basically just adding passive fluff mitigation similar to how Paladin has it and the main function here is to facilitate blocks for the block stacks without hard-forcing Paladin to always have aggro to get those stacks reliably. It also gives the option to turn Bulwark into a mitigation that can be used for your target as it will guarantee the 10% block mitigation.

20% chance of 10% mitigation is a 2% net mitigation over an extended period, so hardly broken.

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Originally Posted by Atreus

I'd definitely like to see the shield be used for more than just passive blocks. I'd also like the identity of PLD to shift away from being this unlimited bladeworks caster thing. The Atonement combo is a good foundation for what the class should be. Shield bash and smite could absolutely be weaved in.

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Yes indeed, my suggestions aimed at focusing on the Shield identity if the PLD, and to some extent add some interesting gameplay mechanics at lower levels, before the bladworks.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

I... kinda like these, actually. Here my take on the implementations if you don't mind.

Shield Bash & Shield Smite - Essentially you turned them into usable oGCD actions that extend beyond "press for Stun on demand but is awful for damage". The requirement of block stacks (amount can be adjusted/balanced) prevents excessive spamming (it should still have a bit of an internal cooldown like 5-10 seconds due to Bulwark + AOE packs) but is overall fitting well into the shield focus. Usually the "you have to block" means this would cement Paladin into Main Tank, but...

Cover & Full Cover - Cover being a "here is a chance this target receives a weaker version of my block, which I can guarantee with Bulwark" is an interesting spin without having to risk Full Cover i.e. taking their debuffs + full damage, which you still kept around (hopefully without Oath cost), so bravo on that! I REALLY like this.

Royal Authority/Rage of Halone combo merge - where do I sign that this happens YESTERDAY? Yes please. Same for Prominence (AOE) combo and all other basic combos. (or at least give me the OPTION to).

Merging Sheltron + Intervention - Hard pass. Intervention actually has a mechanic that creates synergy with you using Rampart or Sentinel/Guardian and I'd rather not that flavour go away. Furthermore, a merge of these two will inevitably lead to an internal cooldown of 1-2 seconds being added (see Oblation) to prevent rapid represses triggering multiple times by accident. This change *only* benefits players that do not macro their target mitigation to save hotbar space.

Holy Spirit -> Holy Circle - "I guess" but admittedly I prefer the split. Holy Circle is easier to use on a group of mobs as it its around you, but Holy Spirit is a ranged attack. You could make it a ranged AOE attack like Confiteor, but not sure how much I'd like this since you essentially "combo" it from Prominence.

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Appreciate you input, your suggestions are great, I forgot about (intervention) synergy with other defensive abilities.

Replace Cover by pvp Guardian - with the pvp behavior as in, your mitigation/invuln blocks the damage. I know this would cause some exploits in pve, but what you call exploits, I call clever use of the kit and identity of the job. Design around it.

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Originally Posted by Valence

Replace Cover by pvp Guardian - with the pvp behavior as in, your mitigation/invuln blocks the damage. I know this would cause some exploits in pve, but what you call exploits, I call clever use of the kit and identity of the job. Design around it.

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I think it will be interesting to see that, but referencing my suggestions i believe it will be a better fit to replace (Full Cover) with (PVP Guardian), since my reworked (Cover) is mainly for accumulating block stacks while providing passive mitigation to others.

Okay lets go over the changes
Shield Bash - Assuming this is a damage gain or ogcd I'm all for this.
Shield smite/Cover/Full Cover - I dont really think PLD needs a passive Mitigation on a target like sage kardia, I think current cover just needs way more utility and reason to be used (also take it off gauge)
1, 2, 3 Changes - I disagree unless we add more combo finishers (like old goring blade was) It just makes PLD's rotation more bland, The only time I will agree with making a 1, 2, 3 auto combo is if it actually is to advanced the complexity of the job and is still optional.
Intervention/Holy Sheltron Merge - I 100% agree with this, Intervention is pretty much "holy sheltron for a friend" with a way more lame animation, Theirs also still ways we can make it so pld can holy sheltron self and a ally which is the only current reason to keep intervention as it is.
Holy circle - making it a upgrade for holy spirit would be nice if it was still at ranged and did cleave damage as a upgrade, saves space aswell.

I think I'd want to add more to a paladin rework personally but I agree with somewhat changing up some of the niche skills like Cover and shield bash even if I don't 100% agree with the direction.

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Originally Posted by Valence

Replace Cover by pvp Guardian - with the pvp behavior as in, your mitigation/invuln blocks the damage. I know this would cause some exploits in pve, but what you call exploits, I call clever use of the kit and identity of the job. Design around it.

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Sunie, idk how to tell you this, but... with the exception of hard-coded Hallowed Ground exceptions, Cover "already" works like PvP guardian aside the "rush to side". It fully redirects damage to the Paladin and uses the Paladin's mitigation to reduce the damage.

That's literally what PvP Guardian is based on.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

Sunie, idk how to tell you this, but... with the exception of hard-coded Hallowed Ground exceptions, Cover "already" works like PvP guardian aside the "rush to side". It fully redirects damage to the Paladin and uses the Paladin's mitigation to reduce the damage.

That's literally what PvP Guardian is based on.

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I was literally alluding to Hallowed and the range yes. But to be fair no range means limitations to play around which is also good in my book. I don't think cover right now is bad though, I've seen it used a lot in prog (or even fucky reclears) by PLDs to keep important people alive.

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Originally Posted by Valence

I was literally alluding to Hallowed and the range yes. But to be fair no range means limitations to play around which is also good in my book. I don't think cover right now is bad though, I've seen it used a lot in prog (or even fucky reclears) by PLDs to keep important people alive.

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Fair enough on the Hallowed bit. Range though, it has the same 20y activation range without the forced movement and the tether goes to a maximum of 20y as well, longer than PvP.

That said, Cover "really" should get rid of the Oath cost or re-institute the 20% mitigation from Lv66 Enhanced Cover they removed in Shadowbringers to warrant the Oath cost. The 2min cooldown is a hefty restriction as is and a lot of modern mechanics can screw you over for covering too.

Honestly the 123 beign merged would free up a lot of hot bar space, but right now my hotbar i like how it is. Barely ahve to touch it but once an expansion or so. Which kudos to SE for not trying to make every job have the same amount o fbuttons. The shield i wish you could block during cover. Or if they go this route. "Hitting enemies with shield smite reduces cover cooldown by x amount of seconds" Which would make you want to use shield smite more and actually rewrds PLDs who use it smartly

No to no.1. I like being able to stunlock thing full 10 sec.

Other suggestions are ok.

IMO, button merge should be a thing for all jobs and as a tool for all classes and for every skill, not only combos, and the player should be able what they want to merge and/or unmerge.

As for the other suggestions, I don't like them at all.
I don't agree with the "button bloat" argument, and I say this as a playstation and joystick player. I think we have enough (cross)hotbars to use.

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Originally Posted by Brandr

IMO, button merge should be a thing for all jobs and as a tool for all classes and for every skill, not only combos, and the player should be able what they want to merge and/or unmerge.

As for the other suggestions, I don't like them at all.
I don't agree with the "button bloat" argument, and I say this as a playstation and joystick player. I think we have enough (cross)hotbars to use.

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Yeah the way they did the stuff in Dawntrail makes me hopeful there. Lots of auto-comboing follow-ups, but it's up to the player whether they want to use that or not.

That really ought to be the way most things are done. 1-2-3 combos, all that kind of stuff, you can have them on the same button if you want that, or not if you prefer them separate.

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Originally Posted by Brandr

IMO, button merge should be a thing for all jobs and as a tool for all classes and for every skill, not only combos, and the player should be able what they want to merge and/or unmerge.

As for the other suggestions, I don't like them at all.
I don't agree with the "button bloat" argument, and I say this as a playstation and joystick player. I think we have enough (cross)hotbars to use.

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The main reason why people bring up button bloat is because instead of having skills like Shield bash that you almost never use you could have skills that actually get used if you did some pruning or merging

Lets say, HS/Intervention become one ability, 2s recast so you can still double mit, Holy circle became a upgrade and AOE cleave for holy spirit, Low blow and interject were merged to Stun but if the Stun failed it was cause a interrupt, Shield bash was either removed or a actual part of the kit you use. (I personally think cover just needs to be off gauge and maybe have something tied to it, clemency should stay)

You save a lot of skill space without fundamentally ruining a job, where you can add interesting rotational or even utility skills, my issue isn't bloat it's more that this Bloat is used as a way to hold back jobs, if the devs only want to give us upgrades its likely because they think we already have too much skills, so the best ideal is that we make space without removing anything core.

Yeah there's a lot of that. Given how FFXIV doesn't really have mezz-type CC and even the single one we have is not ever used except to abort explosions, there's no reason to have dedicated AoE vs single-target abilities, anyways. A huge amount of hotbar space could be cleared up by mostly getting, well, rid of single-target abilities and instead making everything an AoE for some percentage or even all of its damage. On most jobs this should give an easy 6-10 buttons of free space to use for actually cool abilities, at 0 loss of gameplay functionality as like I said, we are never in a situation where we don't want to hit targets. There's no mezzes here.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

Lets say, HS/Intervention become one ability, 2s recast so you can still double mit, Holy circle became a upgrade and AOE cleave for holy spirit, Low blow and interject were merged to Stun but if the Stun failed it was cause a interrupt

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I've heard the Low Blow/Interject idea before but I don't like it at all. Stun being something that can be resisted means you don't want to throw it out needlessly (though it's not like the game punishes you much for it) and that alone warrants keeping the two abilities separate. It gives more control to the player and a small opportunity to workout optimized usage for each.

Making everything AoE is also something I'd like to avoid. It kills 2 target rotations, the latest of which is M10 where depending on how the enemies are positioned, you have to think about whether you want to use a 1 target or 2 target rotation. There are also a handful of situations where you'd want to avoid hitting things, especially as tank. A few alliance raid adds and some dual raid bosses require separation. Those are interesting mechanics that need to be included more instead of thrown out.

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Originally Posted by PyurBlue

Stun being something that can be resisted means you don't want to throw it out needlessly (though it's not like the game punishes you much for it) and that alone warrants keeping the two abilities separate.

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So quick, check the last month how often you had to interrupt one target and then with in 25 seconds stun another one that you could actually stun. I'll give you for ease of checking that only a single Dawntrail dungeon has a pack of enemies where one wants to use an ability you can stun them out of while another uses an interruptible cast. And speaking as a healer for most of those runs, not a single tank bothers to interrupt the interruptible cast since it only deals like 40% HP to DPS and is only used once, and you can also count the number of non-Paladin tanks that ever use a stun on a single hand for the entire data center.

In the last month? Very often in Pilgrim Traverse actually.

LOL, fair enough. Forgot that sad fart of a content place still exists.

Not gonna pretend that everything is great in there, but the actual need or help for crowd control and the unexpected has been incredibly refreshing comparatively to any other piece of pve in the game right now.

Yeah but I'd rather have a single "interrupt" skill that stuns when possible and interrupts otherwise, and play with CD/charges. Saves hotbar space, and allows better identity modification (maybe only Paladins have Shield Bash instead of Interject, which is the only one that stuns in the first place, stuff like that).

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Originally Posted by Carighan

So quick, check the last month how often you had to interrupt one target and then with in 25 seconds stun another one that you could actually stun

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Tam Tara would be the most recent. Not sure if it counts with that dungeon amounting to a tutorial at this point, and it's also the same enemy. Dohn Mheg would be just over a month. There is also The Twinning, but I can't even remember when it last came up.

You're very right in pointing out that this isn't common, but like I said I'd rather fix the frequency and implementation instead of throwing away good ideas.

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Originally Posted by Valence

Not gonna pretend that everything is great in there, but the actual need or help for crowd control and the unexpected has been incredibly refreshing comparatively to any other piece of pve in the game right now.

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This is another reason why I'd rather see aggro on defensive abilities instead of offensive ones. It's a way to bring meaningful crowd control back into the game and dehomogenize tanks.