7.4 Criterion feedback

Today's live letter has shown the new system they put forward for V&C dungeons. While I welcome the changes and am excited to try them out, there are some things that I'd like to provide feedback on, particularly Criterion dungeons:

1. Trash mobs should remain in Criterion dungeons. The PLL alluded that they'd be removed but I think they should stay, as they were essentially mini-bosses and felt like a challenge compared to the trash we encounter in any normal dungeon.

2. A deathless run achievement with a title should be added to keep the spirit of the old Savage mode. Since Criterion (Savage) is removed, this would be a nice challenge to tackle at least once.

3. Include the sub and secret bosses in Criterion. I wish these two bosses that we only see in the normal Variant version were turned into harder versions for Criterion. This could allow them to make two routes for a Criterion dungeon in which the first boss is shared and the other two are different while providing different rewards and achievements per route.

To anyone reading, is there any other feedback that you'd like to provide when it comes to V&C dungeons?

More modes are always welcome, and i like the idea that you can practice bosses with 1-3 friends completely free form. Thats a good change, and who knows if that shapes things for the future.
At the same time, the ability to do the bosses with less than a full group could mean that the mechanics are fully role agnostic. Whether that is good or bad, thats in the eye of the beholder.

I have no opinion on your points 2 and 3, as I never got a group together for Criterion, but as for the other thing:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aco505

1. Trash mobs should remain in Criterion dungeons. The PLL alluded that they'd be removed but I think they should stay, as they were essentially mini-bosses and felt like a challenge compared to the trash we encounter in any normal dungeon.

---

Its a bit... sad to see that the game seemingly focuses more and more on "room with boss" encounters for meaningful endgame combat activities. The only exception i can think of at the moment is Deep Dungeon, and even that culminates in a room with boss as a capstone. (and before someone says Occult Crescent, most encounters lock you in an arena, too.)
Personally, I'd enjoy to have more walkways and corridors, interesting trash and more things that make me feel like an "adventurer".

Please, keep the mobs. They're so spicy. I love them.
I love the idea of having the secret boss be part of Criterion. Although I don't remember seeing if Advanced and Criterion would have the same bosses, having one different boss would be great. Possibly last one, since they also get the epic special arena and all?
Huge agree on the deathless run. It's worthy of a reward!

God i am so tired of this Rez Limit nonsense.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yodada

God i am so tired of this Rez Limit nonsense.

---

Die less, then.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BokoToloko

Die less, then.

---

I like to play Healer and rezzing People *shruge*

It'd be less an issue if they back off on body checks and instant death gimmicks a bit and actually go on the idea that a healer can help a party recover from mistakes.

I hope the rewards are worth it this time around; that was one of the biggest issues people complained about. If Criterion dungeons are as difficult as Savage raids, then they should offer Savage-level rewards, even if it means putting a weekly limit. Variant and Criterion dungeons come on during the x.x5 patches so the gear wouldn't help those doing day-one Savage raids.

I do hate the removal of trash mob sections. We need to remember that criterion trash sections were the only time this game has shown it can actually be creative and offer interesting, engaging trash mobs, that aren't even that hard in comparison the boss of the same mode. Now, I'll admit that I'm done with raiding and therefore I'm done with Criterion, but they also announced the Advanced Variant mode that could potentially pique my interest, and yet what's the point without trash mobs? It's all big rooms with stupid DDR bosses again??? Criterion trash was easy enough that it could completely fit into the intermediate mode and everybody would be happy with it.

Bring back the trash please

I feel like removing the trash mobs kind of defeats the point of having a dungeon with more explorable and challenging elements? Not to compare apples to oranges but it reminds me of how between Heavensward and Stormblood they removed trash pulls from raids. Now I'm not saying trash mobs should be in raids, but it did give me more of a feeling that I was "raiding" an area. It just feels like more of a trial otherwise.

First they removed trash from 8-man raids, now from 4-man. Why even add it in the first place? Even Deep Dungeon is going through this, with trash HP being practically non-existent on the harder floors.

Everyone must to rush straight into boss fights. Well except for normal dungeons, where people are stuck doing the same dungeon for 10 months, hitting harmless sponges that SE never bothered to change in over 10 years. The interesting mobs are the ones being deleted.

a proper achievemen that isnt just finish this or that content? nah they dont do stuff like that xD

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Destati

I feel like removing the trash mobs kind of defeats the point of having a dungeon with more explorable and challenging elements? Not to compare apples to oranges but it reminds me of how between Heavensward and Stormblood they removed trash pulls from raids. Now I'm not saying trash mobs should be in raids, but it did give me more of a feeling that I was "raiding" an area. It just feels like more of a trial otherwise.

---

This is pretty much exactly how I've felt about raids and dungeons for like 7 years now.
Alexander still felt like an actual place in the world that you were "raiding".
But even back then dungeons were already going the way of "corridors with pretty wallpaper that end in an arena".
And it has only gotten worse with time.

Which is also what immediately killed my interest in Criterion.
When I think of harder dungeons I do not think of a boss gauntlet that is just more corridors to connect 3 trial bosses, with maybe a trash pack or two.

That's the only thing the devs know how to do those days, trial bosses. That's literally the only thing remaining in the pve game beyond perhaps deep dungeons. It's like they want their game to cater to the least amount of players, while doing everything else otherwise to satisfy everybody. It's quite maddening how schizophrenic it can feel at times.

After playing all three versions of the new Merchant's Tale V&C dungeon, I can say that there's several good aspects to it. First of all, the extra mini-boss was a welcome surprise, as having the same one for all three paths in previous variant dungeons was a bit stale. I also enjoy the aesthetics and music of the dungeon, even if it might've been nice to have one boss battle in the initial area we start in. The difficulty of the three modes seems well adjusted, with advanced in particular being tough but fair enough to clear even when dying a lot. The boss mechanics are fun in all modes but they're also a bit too healthy in the normal variant version, at least when playing solo as a DPS.

That said, there's also other elements that warrant criticism. The three initial points exposed in the OP are still true, especially the first one. Not having trash in Criterion is a missed opportunity since there's not a lot of content in the game with dangerous trash mobs.

Variant Advanced and Criterion feature the same three bosses, when it could've been interesting for one of them to include the other three or to add a second path in Criterion that featured them.

The lack of voice acting is also felt, as it would've added a lot of personality and charm to the characters and especially the bosses.

The rewards are adequate but player feedback has been clear: completing all the variant paths should reward a mount just like before and rewarding the ester from Another Alo Alo Island (Savage) in Advanced and Criterion devalues the old dungeon in the same way that the coffers in the Occult Crescent and the drone chests in Cosmic Exploration have devalued previous content.

We should have gotten a new ester to provide particle effects to existing weapons. For instance, any of the tome weapons available in Dawntrail such as the Quetzalli ones or even the Palaka weapons from Vanapasti due to its thematic link with the dungeon.

Additionally, Advanced and/or Criterion could've awarded a token each per week that could be exchanged for any of the tomestone augment items. This would've helped the gearing process of alt-jobs for raiders and main jobs for non-raiders, as well as provide an avenue to allow the use of the hypothetical new esters to upgrade the newest tomestone weapons into a glowy version.

The fact that there's been mixed reception about the rewards of the content should inspire the developers to do better next time, even though they already had 3 years of feedback from the previous V&C dungeons.

Please, keep these ideas in mind for the next releases. We want more V&C dungeons!

Something to add after clearing Another Merchant's Tale blind: great fights but the trash mobs are sorely missed, bring them back!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BokoToloko

Die less, then.

---

Death limits are an artificial crutch to make things harder, same thing as one mistake wipes and one hit kills (outside of tank busters as those are legit). It's a quick fix and a sign of lack of creativity or lack of resources.

I believe the Devs are very creative, so it's a lack of resources and they are doing what they can as fast as they can. Where the resources are going or where they went is a different discussion for a different topic.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hyperia

Death limits are an artificial crutch to make things harder, same thing as one mistake wipes and one hit kills (outside of tank busters as those are legit). It's a quick fix and a sign of lack of creativity or lack of resources.

I believe the Devs are very creative, so it's a lack of resources and they are doing what they can as fast as they can. Where the resources are going or where they went is a different discussion for a different topic.

---

I mean, 1 person dying is 25% of the team dps/mit gone. If its a tank dies good luck surviving autos, if the healer dies, good luck recovering before the next raid wide comes in as they have to heal themselves and the rest of the party.

Death limits in criterion are a way to remove cheese, to remove the ability of just using rez to skip mechanics. It allows a normal progression into the fight. My group has been blind progging AMT and the deaths offer a way for us to experience the fight without both dps being forced onto rez classes. Since everyone has access to rez, its not just the healers responsibility.

I'd rather have 'artificial crutch'(es) in AMT via limited rez options as they provide stakes into each fight than people getting dragged through the finish lime via unlimited rez.

Also, because the cadence of these mechanics play off of 4 players, I believe its intended to have limited rez as the mechanics through the fight lose out on their novelty if the intended 4 player mechanic is resolved by 3/only has 2 of the 4 assignments get deployed (ie chains during sword master).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hotdamjam

I mean, 1 person dying is 25% of the team dps/mit gone. If its a tank dies good luck surviving autos, if the healer dies, good luck recovering before the next raid wide comes in as they have to heal themselves and the rest of the party.

Death limits in criterion are a way to remove cheese, to remove the ability of just using rez to skip mechanics. It allows a normal progression into the fight. My group has been blind progging AMT and the deaths offer a way for us to experience the fight without both dps being forced onto rez classes. Since everyone has access to rez, its not just the healers responsibility.

I'd rather have 'artificial crutch'(es) in AMT via limited rez options as they provide stakes into each fight than people getting dragged through the finish lime via unlimited rez.

Also, because the cadence of these mechanics play off of 4 players, I believe its intended to have limited rez as the mechanics through the fight lose out on their novelty if the intended 4 player mechanic is resolved by 3/only has 2 of the 4 assignments get deployed (ie chains during sword master).

---

I would even say we need even more cheese (be it mechanic-wise or ilvl-wise). Cause it would help the longevity of content in the long run (my PoV)
cause you could drag lesser skilled (actual lesser skilled (for whatever reason) not the type i dont want to do harder stuff) through it so you still have
things to do with your friends between patches. Square could still offer special achievements like no death run ones (just like Deep Dungeons) etc.
for those who seek the special challenge. (thats not specifically tied to Criterion and Advanced Criterion, just in general)

Because right now its disheartening to see some peeps on my FL just leaving because they are actual not able to perform in quick DDR slop design fights
we are currently having instead of having fun with friends and dying from time to time.

So for me rez limits or body checks are just a symptom for CBU3's incompetence when it comes to job and combat design that this is the only thing
whats left for them to challenge us WoL. I am sure a lot of players (especially those from Savage onwards on) dont want to hear it but at this point i
rather take a few dead bodies through a fight and FF14 being an healthier game overall instead being like Yoshi "Want to have fun? Go play Ultimate".
He is still the captain of the ship so he has also the right to steer it into the Iceberg. So whatever.