Character Death in the MSQ

This is just my opinion, but the MSQ's kinda weird with killing off characters. When NPCs die they often (but not always) fall in one of five categories, or multiple at once. Also this has spoilers up to 7.3, so if you don't wanna see that, turn back now.

The Villain
This is pretty self-explanatory. Any villain who dies is The Villain. It'd be weirder if they didn't die. And because it's expected, it tends to be better or at least decently written.

The Guy Nobody Cared About
When the writers don't wanna kill a more popular character, or they just wanna trim down the cast, they pick an unpopular one. Usually it's very obvious when they're about to die because the story suddenly pretends they matter. Geode's the most recent example.

The Woman
Before someone accuses me of saying it's bad to kill off female characters, let me make something clear: Not every woman dying counts. She's The Woman when the main reason she dies is to make a man feel sad. Moenbryda's probably the most well known of these but she's far from the only one. I'd argue the only part that doesn't do it is Endwalker.

The Already Dead
These are characters who've already died by the time we meet or learn about them. Sometimes they haunt the narrative through another character's backstory. Sometimes they literally haunt the narrative as a ghost (hi Ardbert). The Endless technically count but they're treated more like living characters until they're shut down.

The Disney Death
You know that trope in Disney movies where a character dies only to be resurrected or end up being alive all along? It's not just Disney. The writers use it when they wanna tug at your heartstrings without having to deal with potential backlash. Sometimes it happens to the same character more than once, like G'raha and Y'shtola.

TV Tropes really does ruin your life I guess...

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Originally Posted by StormChase

Geode's the most recent example.

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Wrong! I cared about him. Because he was hot.

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

TV Tropes really does ruin your life I guess...

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It's not only kinda pointless categorization, it's also, on its face, kinda nonsense. Like, you know who doesn't do the 'Disney death' all that often? Disney. Their core canon is littered with characters that die horribly and stay dead. If anything, I'd call that category 'Soap Opera Death' or 'Super Hero Death' (which are actually the same thing), because they're infamous for it and it's frequently rooted in wanting to give a longstanding, beloved character an emotional sacrifice or loss, but to also keep that character around.

The OP kinda smacks of someone who wants to be able to say something, but for whatever reason feels the need to somehow convey it as Concrete, Citeable Facts instead of something more personal or emotional. Which is a shame, because I'm sure the OP actually does have a point they want to convey, but all I'm getting here is 'FFXIV kills villains, women, and minor characters I don't care about, there are no distinctions or exceptions, source: one example each and trust me there's totally more'.

If someone wants to actually make a point, I'm always happy to listen, but... well, they didn't.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

It's not only kinda pointless categorization, it's also, on its face, kinda nonsense. Like, you know who doesn't do the 'Disney death' all that often? Disney. Their core canon is littered with characters that die horribly and stay dead. If anything, I'd call that category 'Soap Opera Death' or 'Super Hero Death' (which are actually the same thing), because they're infamous for it and it's frequently rooted in wanting to give a longstanding, beloved character an emotional sacrifice or loss, but to also keep that character around.

The OP kinda smacks of someone who wants to be able to say something, but for whatever reason feels the need to somehow convey it as Concrete, Citeable Facts instead of something more personal or emotional. Which is a shame, because I'm sure the OP actually does have a point they want to convey, but all I'm getting here is 'FFXIV kills villains, women, and minor characters I don't care about, there are no distinctions or exceptions, source: one example each and trust me there's totally more'.

If someone wants to actually make a point, I'm always happy to listen, but... well, they didn't.

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Okay, I will admit: I did make it sound way too much like TV Tropes and also should've included more examples. My intention wasn't to make it seem like every death counts as these because there's definitely some that don't. And I should've clarified the Disney comparison's something that happens to main characters specifically. You're right about superhero comics and soap operas being a better comparison in general.

wait wait wait, i feel like someone needs to ask the big question here.

Does this make Haurchefant a "The woman"?

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Originally Posted by StormChase

Okay, I will admit: I did make it sound way too much like TV Tropes and also should've included more examples. My intention wasn't to make it seem like every death counts as these because there's definitely some that don't. And I should've clarified the Disney comparison's something that happens to main characters specifically. You're right about superhero comics and soap operas being a better comparison in general.

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I'll add some more examples so it's more clear why I think there's patterns. Also not all of these examples are necessarily bad writing, but I do think they show a reluctance to kill characters the players and writers are more attached to, for better or worse.

The Guy Nobody Cared About

• Papalymo debatably counts? AFAIK he was one of the less popular Scions, and for whatever reason it seems like the writers decided he and Yda were the weakest link. Unless I'm misremembering, Lyse only mentioned him, like, maybe twice in 4.0? Her family was a lot more relevant.
• Speaking of Stormblood, Conrad was a character who pretty much only existed to promote Lyse. At least that's how it felt when I played it. Half of 4.0 being in Othard didn't help.
• Until 7.3 Geode was just... there. The moment he said he was coming back I knew something was up, and him randomly saying his backstory further solidfied my suspicions. His death wasn't particularly relevant to the rest of the patch other than when we drank with Oblivion. But who knows? We still have his aether, so maybe they'll readdress it.

The Woman

• When Moenbryda comes up it almost always has to do with Urianger. I get why that is but he wasn't the only Scion she was close to. Weren't she and Yda like sisters?
• Ysayle had the misfortune of dying right after Haurchefant, and because of that she's often forgotten by comparison. Occasionally she's mentioned when Alphinaud or Estinien remember her, plus that one bit of fanservice in the Aitiascope. Ryne mentioned her but it was in passing. She didn't even get a portrait like the Heavensward guys.
• Yotsuyu's a villain but she also counts because of her connection to Gosetsu. I'm not gonna argue whether or not she should've died but they should've done more with the trafficking storyline afterwards. I don't understand why Endwalker's ranged quests just went back to "Yotsuyu scary" and didn't do something about the other women and girls being abused. As things are right now, her story and Doma's are unresolved without that.
• Minfilia was already heavily disliked (undeserved IMO) by the time the writers sealed her fate, which probably had something to do with the decision. I like Thancred and Ryne's arcs but I don't like how she was basically reduced to a plot device to make them happen. If she had more of a presence in Shadowbringers I might feel differently.

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Originally Posted by StormChase

I'll add some more examples so it's more clear why I think there's patterns. Also not all of these examples are necessarily bad writing, but I do think they show a reluctance to kill characters the players and writers are more attached to, for better or worse.

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The Fake Out

• 2.55 shocked me because they really made it look like Nanamo died. Heavensward revealed she just went to sleep, which kinda took away some of the impact. Maybe they were worried that would be too bleak.
• Y'shtola's had close calls multiple times. I don't think they should kill her off but I wish she had higher stakes as a character. She might have the most plot armor out of any Scion besides the WOL.
• The Crystal Exarch died at the end of 5.3 and his soul was transferred to the present G'raha Tia. IMO that was a more satisfying conclusion than him just dying.
• Most of the major Scions sacrificed themselves at Ultima Thule, and were then recreated with the last of Hydaelyn's magic. But their deaths were mostly symbolic, so I don't have much of an issue.

Some Exceptions

• Haurchefant was more of a joke character in A Realm Reborn, but he was genuinely loved by a lot of players, and the writers made sure his death stuck with them.
• Tesleen's death (well, the thing that might as well have been her death) left a big impact by being at the very beginning of Shadowbringers. And it played a big part in Alisaie's story by leading to her curing tempering.
• The only issue I have with Hydaelyn dying was her soul dissipating. Other than that it was emotionally resonant, made a lot of narrative sense, and helped close the main story arc.

You're still not really making any meaningful point here. You're just saying things and asserting there's some greater pattern to this, when... yeah, all I see here is you continuing to dismiss exceptions with things like 'well I don't care about Papalymo, ergo'.

I suggested that maybe you want to say something more personal and emotional, but I feel like you instead want to go quantitative on this: to be able to say 'all FFXIV deaths fit into these four and a half categories'. If that's what you want to say, then I suggest you do the legwork: prove that this is in fact true, by making a whole project of the categorization. Categorize every single death to show that you've actually come up with a worthwhile categorization system! I've got no idea what end that would serve, but you could do it!

If you're doing that, at least redefine 'the guy nobody cared about', because that's an extremely subjective category that kinda just acts as a bin for you to throw any character that you happen to personally dismiss. I don't think that's what you intend, I think what you're actually trying to do here is to declare these to be characters that primarily exist to die; whose entire purpose in the story is to, sooner or later, cark it. These are your Conrads, your Tesleens, and any number of literally nameless characters. It is not a box to throw in characters you personally don't care about, it's a recognizable habit (in a lot of stories, not just FFXIV) to make characters primarily for the purposes of dying for plot furtherance, stakes-raising or tone-setting.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

You're still not really making any meaningful point here. You're just saying things and asserting there's some greater pattern to this, when... yeah, all I see here is you continuing to dismiss exceptions with things like 'well I don't care about Papalymo, ergo'.

I suggested that maybe you want to say something more personal and emotional, but I feel like you instead want to go quantitative on this: to be able to say 'all FFXIV deaths fit into these four and a half categories'. If that's what you want to say, then I suggest you do the legwork: prove that this is in fact true, by making a whole project of the categorization. Categorize every single death to show that you've actually come up with a worthwhile categorization system! I've got no idea what end that would serve, but you could do it!

If you're doing that, at least redefine 'the guy nobody cared about', because that's an extremely subjective category that kinda just acts as a bin for you to throw any character that you happen to personally dismiss. I don't think that's what you intend, I think what you're actually trying to do here is to declare these to be characters that primarily exist to die; whose entire purpose in the story is to, sooner or later, cark it. These are your Conrads, your Tesleens, and any number of literally nameless characters. It is not a box to throw in characters you personally don't care about, it's a recognizable habit (in a lot of stories, not just FFXIV) to make characters primarily for the purposes of dying for plot furtherance, stakes-raising or tone-setting.

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Yeah, I know it's a personal observation because a lot of these are pretty subjective. I think, like you said, what I was trying to put into words was characters I'm guessing were made to die or killed to clear space. "The Guy Nobody Cared About" is more of a hyperbolic title. Also the quantitative route is doable but not really an option for the forums since there's a 3000-character limit.

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Originally Posted by StormChase

Also the quantitative route is doable but not really an option for the forums since there's a 3000-character limit.

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You can edit your posts to add more stuff, cutting down on the number of posts needed to make your entire point.

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Originally Posted by Shistar

You can edit your posts to add more stuff, cutting down on the number of posts needed to make your entire point.

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I'd also put forward that if you really want to do this, the optimal angle might be 'Google spreadsheet'. Chart every death by category and expansion, start graphing the results, you'll probably start to see patterns and conclusions you both will and won't expect, like an expansion having a higher or lower bodycount than expected, or like, an unnoticed spike in villain fake-out deaths.

This mode of thinking degrades your ability to examine texts critically. It's far more useful to identify the what and how of a piece of story in context instead of defaulting to mindless pattern recognition.

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Originally Posted by StormChase

This is just my opinion, but the MSQ's kinda weird with killing off characters.

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So writers kill off characters for narrative reasons? You've kind of described all of fiction.

As the others have stated, you're too busy trying to shoehorn everything into boxes that you neglect the context behind them and write off characters like Haurchefant and Papalymo as "people no one cared about" when people clearly do care about them to the point of ugly sobbing in public when talking about them. Colin Ryan, Alphinaud's voice actor, was at a complete loss for words when Haurchefant died despite having an understanding that Haurchefant was doomed from his past work on the game.

Even the writers argue over their usage of character deaths. Natsuko Ishikawa was peeved that three characters she created and wanted to develop, Moenbryda, Haurchefant, and Ysayle, all got killed off by Maehiro in ARR and HW before she could fully flesh them out. This seemed to make her take the opposite approach and become reluctant to kill off core members of the cast (which is honestly to the narrative's general benefit).

So what is your point exactly?

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

I'd also put forward that if you really want to do this, the optimal angle might be 'Google spreadsheet'. Chart every death by category and expansion, start graphing the results, you'll probably start to see patterns and conclusions you both will and won't expect, like an expansion having a higher or lower bodycount than expected, or like, an unnoticed spike in villain fake-out deaths.

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Off the top of my head I'm remembering there were at least four of those. A couple of them died for real later (Yotsuyu and Zenos) but a couple of them are still alive (Gaius and Calyx).

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Originally Posted by StormChase

Off the top of my head I'm remembering there were at least four of those. A couple of them died for real later (Yotsuyu and Zenos) but a couple of them are still alive (Gaius and Calyx).

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Also Sareel Ja, but you learn that in a sidequest.

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Originally Posted by StormChase

Also Sareel Ja, but you learn that in a sidequest.

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AND Solus. Okay damn, that's a lot.

You can just edit your posts rather than spamming posts on your own thread you know...

And what about them? What's your point that the writer did these things. Some actual analysis and reasoned opinion would be nice to foster discussion beyond "this happened".

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Originally Posted by Dikatis

You can just edit your posts rather than spamming posts on your own thread you know...

And what about them? What's your point that the writer did these things. Some actual analysis and reasoned opinion would be nice to foster discussion beyond "this happened".

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I'm noticing with the villain fake outs that several of them die for real later (Solus, Nidhogg, Yotsuyu, Zenos). So I think excluding Gaius, they're done to create a false sense of security before the fight continues.

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Originally Posted by Dikatis

So writers kill off characters for narrative reasons? You've kind of described all of fiction.

As the others have stated, you're too busy trying to shoehorn everything into boxes that you neglect the context behind them and write off characters like Haurchefant and Papalymo as "people no one cared about" when people clearly do care about them to the point of ugly sobbing in public when talking about them. Colin Ryan, Alphinaud's voice actor, was at a complete loss for words when Haurchefant died despite having an understanding that Haurchefant was doomed from his past work on the game.

Even the writers argue over their usage of character deaths. Natsuko Ishikawa was peeved that three characters she created and wanted to develop, Moenbryda, Haurchefant, and Ysayle, all got killed off by Maehiro in ARR and HW before she could fully flesh them out. This seemed to make her take the opposite approach and become reluctant to kill off core members of the cast (which is honestly to the narrative's general benefit).

So what is your point exactly?

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I actually did list Haurchefant as one of the more exceptional deaths in a different reply. Part of the reason I put Papalymo (who I said is debatable) where I did was because of how sparsely he was mentioned in 4.0.

Also we don't know for a fact that Moenbryda and Ysayle are Ishikawa's, but the way she talked about her characters dying, they probably were. I got an idea of why that might've happened but that's another can of worms.

What's funny is I noticed a few years ago that there are a few plot points I keep putting into my own works and realized that someone would absolutely consider it a "trope" of mine despite it simply being a thing I like exploring in fiction. Considering FFXIV has had the same few people overseeing it since at least 2.0, seeing similar ideas and stylistic choices is just that, the creative team's style.

Anyway. At this point, killing off a main Scion is pretty impossible. As self-sacrificing as G'raha is as a character, and the fact he keeps throwing himself in danger to save us, AND the fact he's had what? 4 fake-out deaths in the plot, he's one of the most popular characters. He has a ton of merch. He brings in players. We like using him in content. (Shoot, his English VA is a massive Hollywood actor now who got his break during ShB, but even HE adores the character so much that he wants to keep on as his voice as much as possible.) Killing G'raha off would damage the game.

That's why we get characters like Moenbryda or Geode. We get a minor character we get to explore a bit and get attached too that can still have some emotional impact and ripples in the plot. The writing behind that Geode section was such a massive shift and improvement in writing emotional beats in DT that I hate to say it, his sacrifice kind of saved the plot a bit for me. They made me care again. But if it had been G'raha? I'd probably log off and never come back, because he's my favorite.

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Originally Posted by RedLolly

What's funny is I noticed a few years ago that there are a few plot points I keep putting into my own works and realized that someone would absolutely consider it a "trope" of mine despite it simply being a thing I like exploring in fiction. Considering FFXIV has had the same few people overseeing it since at least 2.0, seeing similar ideas and stylistic choices is just that, the creative team's style.

Anyway. At this point, killing off a main Scion is pretty impossible. As self-sacrificing as G'raha is as a character, and the fact he keeps throwing himself in danger to save us, AND the fact he's had what? 4 fake-out deaths in the plot, he's one of the most popular characters. He has a ton of merch. He brings in players. We like using him in content. (Shoot, his English VA is a massive Hollywood actor now who got his break during ShB, but even HE adores the character so much that he wants to keep on as his voice as much as possible.) Killing G'raha off would damage the game.

That's why we get characters like Moenbryda or Geode. We get a minor character we get to explore a bit and get attached too that can still have some emotional impact and ripples in the plot. The writing behind that Geode section was such a massive shift and improvement in writing emotional beats in DT that I hate to say it, his sacrifice kind of saved the plot a bit for me. They made me care again. But if it had been G'raha? I'd probably log off and never come back, because he's my favorite.

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They shouldn't kill off main characters for the sake of it. The Crystal Exarch living on as G'raha Tia was a better conclusion than him dying and staying dead. I just think the deaths can be a little too predictable sometimes. Not Final Fantasy, but I remember Stranger Things facing similar criticisms about them introducing a new character each season who's made to die so they can play it safe with the main cast.

Papalymo might have been the most unpopular of the Scions, but he still was loved by a lot of players. I agree that it's not great that he was practically forgotten after 3.5, until lvl 87 dungeon.

Geode was a good side character. He was present for major events. He might have not beenthe most impactful character, but still a very solid one.

The only "trope" i can absolutely agree with is "fakeout". 2.55 and Heavensward did it the best way they could. At the end of ARR i genuinely felt the weight that Alphinaud and WoL were carrying, after that escape. We didn't know the fate of Scions, we did think Nanamo died, and we were pretty much a wanted criminals by the Uldah. The whole conspiracy thing was ok, Nanamo being asleep wasn't a terrible choice. And what's important, scions who used teleportation magic paid for it. Yshtola went blind, Thancred lost the ability to control aether, Minfilia practically died. I guess Papalymo and Yda didn't really suffer much consequences, but it's alright too.

What's bad is that after Heavensward SE constantly, constantly killing off characters and bringing them back. All the damn time. And they make it as if the characters gonna die for real, but bringing them back literal couple cutscenes later, because they have no balls to kill a marketable character. The most egregious example of this was Endwalker. I liked the scenes of their sacrifices, especially the twins. And the part where you walk alone is amazing. But then the very next cutscene we just summon Emet and then return everyone. For me, it didn't ruin the story, but still left a bitter taste. Like what even was the point of the zone if we can just use a mcguffin immediately?

There are two bad ways to deal with deaths in stories : the one is this one above, where you constantly bring back the dead characters (Marvel also very infamous for doing this), and the other where you kill everyone all the time (Jujutsu Kaisen is the most shiny example of this), to the point where you just stop caring when someone dies, no matter how important the character was.

Deaths should be used in moderation, for important moments. Not as a cheap trick to get a tear out of a player.

I think a lot of MSQ deaths are purely a result of the writers not knowing what to do with the character anymore. Ysayle, I believe, was the first victim of this phenomenon. Her character arc was complete, so she had to die. It's apparently their favourite way of tying up loose ends (yes, I'm immensely salty they did this with the Twelve). This is actually also what happens to a lot of major villains. I thought it would be much more interesting to grab some of them by the scruff and drag them, kicking and screaming, towards atonement but the only case we got any hint of this was Gaius and in his case, it was more like "conveniently forget all the villainous things he's done uwu".

Actually, many deaths in the story are a result of lazy writing - upping the stakes by fridging a character (Haurchefant, the king of Tural) is another extremely common one. And yeah, there are also a bunch of red shirts like Geode but Dawntrail in general completely failed to spark any kind of interest in me, so my reaction to 95% of it was "meh" anyway.

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Originally Posted by PercibelTheren

I think a lot of MSQ deaths are purely a result of the writers not knowing what to do with the character anymore. Ysayle, I believe, was the first victim of this phenomenon. Her character arc was complete, so she had to die. It's apparently their favourite way of tying up loose ends (yes, I'm immensely salty they did this with the Twelve). This is actually also what happens to a lot of major villains. I thought it would be much more interesting to grab some of them by the scruff and drag them, kicking and screaming, towards atonement but the only case we got any hint of this was Gaius and in his case, it was more like "conveniently forget all the villainous things he's done uwu".

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Ysayle was written for Heavensward. The work on the expansion was well underway when she was introduced and she died in 3.0. The character's whole purpose was to have an arc and then die and the decision probably came before we even met her.

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Originally Posted by PercibelTheren

Actually, many deaths in the story are a result of lazy writing - upping the stakes by fridging a character (Haurchefant, the king of Tural) is another extremely common one. And yeah, there are also a bunch of red shirts like Geode but Dawntrail in general completely failed to spark any kind of interest in me, so my reaction to 95% of it was "meh" anyway.

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I think you should probably lay off the tv tropes for a while.

For the record, that poster wasn't just broadly wrong about 'fridging' there, but they were wrong in a very specifically bad way that defeats the very real purpose of the term. 'Fridging' is specifically when a female character is killed anticlimactically and abruptly for no reason but to emotionally motivate a male character. Gender is important here, because it is very specifically a misogynist cliche; the woman is reduced to a shallow plot beat, a thing to motivate a man. Even if you do theoretically disregard gender, Haurchefant and Gulool Ja Ja don't really scan for it, because their deaths are quite significant story moments for all involved, act as the culmination of the characters' own arcs, and affect a lot more than just a single character's feelings.

There aren't really examples of fridging in FFXIV, but I can't necessarily say that as a positive, because there's a few deaths that don't even reach that bar. Minfilia and debatably Ysayle would plausibly be fridging if anybody in the story even cared, but in both cases the overwhelming response was 'damn, that sucked, let's keep going'. It took until Shadowbringers for either one to have any meaningful impact on others.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

There aren't really examples of fridging in FFXIV, but I can't necessarily say that as a positive, because there's a few deaths that don't even reach that bar. Minfilia and debatably Ysayle would plausibly be fridging if anybody in the story even cared, but in both cases the overwhelming response was 'damn, that sucked, let's keep going'. It took until Shadowbringers for either one to have any meaningful impact on others.

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I found it incredibly insulting that Ysayle dies in front of us, Alphinaud says a generic "Nooooo, my friend. Anyways" dialogue and we just move on. What was that!? Where's her grave or memorial, where's the people she led, what happened to anything related to her? At least Minfilia makes some sort of comeback, but Ysayle's case was just depressing...

I would absolutely put Ysayle in that camp for Estinien, even if only on a very minor level.


Honestly didn't like Ysayle. She was a prime reason why Heavensward did little for me personally despite the popular opinion. I just kept thinking she was an idiot and kinda freaky for turning the image of a gentle saint that loved dragons to her death into that ice themed, amazonian warrior goddess, and then being shocked when Hreasvelgr, the real Shiva's lover who Ysayle knew was her lover all along, was deeply offended by how Ysayle twisted her image. I understand that Shiva, the FF summon, is designed like that in every game she's appeared, but in the context of FFXIV, it felt REALLY gross that Ysayle did that to Shiva and her legacy. She has her breakdown and when we go back to get her to help with the rebels that she abandoned post-breakdown, she's still in Hreasvelgr's home despite how unwelcome she clearly was to him. But the game just... doesn't acknowledge it and I am apparently the only person that took her story that way. "Yeah, Ysayle was a little confused but she meant well!"

She only got away with much of it because Hreasvelgr is so nice.

I genuinely don't know if the read is Estinien regretting he couldn't "fix her" (thus very much being a fridged character as she's only brought up wistfully around him) or if I'm supposed to be mad at Hydaelyn for letting Ysayle go that far off the rails after a bad Echo trip since that was the era of the story Hydaelyn seemed to be evil and not just really struggling at her job.

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Originally Posted by RedLolly

Honestly didn't like Ysayle. She was a prime reason why Heavensward did little for me personally despite the popular opinion. I just kept thinking she was an idiot and kinda freaky for turning the image of a gentle saint that loved dragons to her death into that ice themed, amazonian warrior goddess, and then being shocked when Hreasvelgr, the real Shiva's lover who Ysayle knew was her lover all along, was deeply offended by how Ysayle twisted her image.

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While largely unrelated, when you put it like that, I do think it's really interesting that Ysayle essentially did the same thing with Shiva that Ishgard did with Halone, who wasn't a goddess of war until Ishgard decided to wage one.

Which, as unfortunate as that is to phrase, is kinda just how real-world pantheons and sainthoods work. Domains just sorta get tacked on by social necessity; 'we need a god/patron saint of X now that it's a present part of our life, so let's staple that to Athena/tangentially link that to Saint Jimothy the Younger'. If anything Ysayle is kinda doing better than most; she is correctly identifying with Shiva's overall ideal, she's just picked a sword instead of an olive branch. ...and has some unhealthy associations that would've really served her to unpack with someone, but therapy's not exactly a thing a lot of people get to do in grand adventures.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

While largely unrelated, when you put it like that, I do think it's really interesting that Ysayle essentially did the same thing with Shiva that Ishgard did with Halone, who wasn't a goddess of war until Ishgard decided to wage one.

Which, as unfortunate as that is to phrase, is kinda just how real-world pantheons and sainthoods work. Domains just sorta get tacked on by social necessity; 'we need a god/patron saint of X now that it's a present part of our life, so let's staple that to Athena/tangentially link that to Saint Jimothy the Younger'. If anything Ysayle is kinda doing better than most; she is correctly identifying with Shiva's overall ideal, she's just picked a sword instead of an olive branch. ...and has some unhealthy associations that would've really served her to unpack with someone, but therapy's not exactly a thing a lot of people get to do in grand adventures.

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I feel like someone's pointed this out in game before. Like Urianger, but I can't for the life of me remember if he actually said it or not.