Character Death in the MSQ

[StormChase]

This is just my opinion, but the MSQ's kinda weird with killing off characters. When NPCs die they often (but not always) fall in one of five categories, or multiple at once. Also this has spoilers up to 7.3, so if you don't wanna see that, turn back now.

The Villain
This is pretty self-explanatory. Any villain who dies is The Villain. It'd be weirder if they didn't die. And because it's expected, it tends to be better or at least decently written.

The Guy Nobody Cared About
When the writers don't wanna kill a more popular character, or they just wanna trim down the cast, they pick an unpopular one. Usually it's very obvious when they're about to die because the story suddenly pretends they matter. Geode's the most recent example.

The Woman
Before someone accuses me of saying it's bad to kill off female characters, let me make something clear: Not every woman dying counts. She's The Woman when the main reason she dies is to make a man feel sad. Moenbryda's probably the most well known of these but she's far from the only one. I'd argue the only part that doesn't do it is Endwalker.

The Already Dead
These are characters who've already died by the time we meet or learn about them. Sometimes they haunt the narrative through another character's backstory. Sometimes they literally haunt the narrative as a ghost (hi Ardbert). The Endless technically count but they're treated more like living characters until they're shut down.

The Disney Death
You know that trope in Disney movies where a character dies only to be resurrected or end up being alive all along? It's not just Disney. The writers use it when they wanna tug at your heartstrings without having to deal with potential backlash. Sometimes it happens to the same character more than once, like G'raha and Y'shtola.

[Enkidoh]

TV Tropes really does ruin your life I guess...

[Turnintino]

Geode's the most recent example.

Wrong! I cared about him. Because he was hot.

[Cleretic]

TV Tropes really does ruin your life I guess...

It's not only kinda pointless categorization, it's also, on its face, kinda nonsense. Like, you know who doesn't do the 'Disney death' all that often? Disney. Their core canon is littered with characters that die horribly and stay dead. If anything, I'd call that category 'Soap Opera Death' or 'Super Hero Death' (which are actually the same thing), because they're infamous for it and it's frequently rooted in wanting to give a longstanding, beloved character an emotional sacrifice or loss, but to also keep that character around.

The OP kinda smacks of someone who wants to be able to say something, but for whatever reason feels the need to somehow convey it as Concrete, Citeable Facts instead of something more personal or emotional. Which is a shame, because I'm sure the OP actually does have a point they want to convey, but all I'm getting here is 'FFXIV kills villains, women, and minor characters I don't care about, there are no distinctions or exceptions, source: one example each and trust me there's totally more'.

If someone wants to actually make a point, I'm always happy to listen, but... well, they didn't.

[StormChase]

It's not only kinda pointless categorization, it's also, on its face, kinda nonsense. Like, you know who doesn't do the 'Disney death' all that often? Disney. Their core canon is littered with characters that die horribly and stay dead. If anything, I'd call that category 'Soap Opera Death' or 'Super Hero Death' (which are actually the same thing), because they're infamous for it and it's frequently rooted in wanting to give a longstanding, beloved character an emotional sacrifice or loss, but to also keep that character around.

The OP kinda smacks of someone who wants to be able to say something, but for whatever reason feels the need to somehow convey it as Concrete, Citeable Facts instead of something more personal or emotional. Which is a shame, because I'm sure the OP actually does have a point they want to convey, but all I'm getting here is 'FFXIV kills villains, women, and minor characters I don't care about, there are no distinctions or exceptions, source: one example each and trust me there's totally more'.

If someone wants to actually make a point, I'm always happy to listen, but... well, they didn't.

Okay, I will admit: I did make it sound way too much like TV Tropes and also should've included more examples. My intention wasn't to make it seem like every death counts as these because there's definitely some that don't. And I should've clarified the Disney comparison's something that happens to main characters specifically. You're right about superhero comics and soap operas being a better comparison in general.

[Lunair]

wait wait wait, i feel like someone needs to ask the big question here.

Does this make Haurchefant a "The woman"?

[StormChase]

Okay, I will admit: I did make it sound way too much like TV Tropes and also should've included more examples. My intention wasn't to make it seem like every death counts as these because there's definitely some that don't. And I should've clarified the Disney comparison's something that happens to main characters specifically. You're right about superhero comics and soap operas being a better comparison in general.

I'll add some more examples so it's more clear why I think there's patterns. Also not all of these examples are necessarily bad writing, but I do think they show a reluctance to kill characters the players and writers are more attached to, for better or worse.

The Guy Nobody Cared About

• Papalymo debatably counts? AFAIK he was one of the less popular Scions, and for whatever reason it seems like the writers decided he and Yda were the weakest link. Unless I'm misremembering, Lyse only mentioned him, like, maybe twice in 4.0? Her family was a lot more relevant.
• Speaking of Stormblood, Conrad was a character who pretty much only existed to promote Lyse. At least that's how it felt when I played it. Half of 4.0 being in Othard didn't help.
• Until 7.3 Geode was just... there. The moment he said he was coming back I knew something was up, and him randomly saying his backstory further solidfied my suspicions. His death wasn't particularly relevant to the rest of the patch other than when we drank with Oblivion. But who knows? We still have his aether, so maybe they'll readdress it.

The Woman

• When Moenbryda comes up it almost always has to do with Urianger. I get why that is but he wasn't the only Scion she was close to. Weren't she and Yda like sisters?
• Ysayle had the misfortune of dying right after Haurchefant, and because of that she's often forgotten by comparison. Occasionally she's mentioned when Alphinaud or Estinien remember her, plus that one bit of fanservice in the Aitiascope. Ryne mentioned her but it was in passing. She didn't even get a portrait like the Heavensward guys.
• Yotsuyu's a villain but she also counts because of her connection to Gosetsu. I'm not gonna argue whether or not she should've died but they should've done more with the trafficking storyline afterwards. I don't understand why Endwalker's ranged quests just went back to "Yotsuyu scary" and didn't do something about the other women and girls being abused. As things are right now, her story and Doma's are unresolved without that.
• Minfilia was already heavily disliked (undeserved IMO) by the time the writers sealed her fate, which probably had something to do with the decision. I like Thancred and Ryne's arcs but I don't like how she was basically reduced to a plot device to make them happen. If she had more of a presence in Shadowbringers I might feel differently.

[StormChase]

I'll add some more examples so it's more clear why I think there's patterns. Also not all of these examples are necessarily bad writing, but I do think they show a reluctance to kill characters the players and writers are more attached to, for better or worse.

The Fake Out

• 2.55 shocked me because they really made it look like Nanamo died. Heavensward revealed she just went to sleep, which kinda took away some of the impact. Maybe they were worried that would be too bleak.
• Y'shtola's had close calls multiple times. I don't think they should kill her off but I wish she had higher stakes as a character. She might have the most plot armor out of any Scion besides the WOL.
• The Crystal Exarch died at the end of 5.3 and his soul was transferred to the present G'raha Tia. IMO that was a more satisfying conclusion than him just dying.
• Most of the major Scions sacrificed themselves at Ultima Thule, and were then recreated with the last of Hydaelyn's magic. But their deaths were mostly symbolic, so I don't have much of an issue.

Some Exceptions

• Haurchefant was more of a joke character in A Realm Reborn, but he was genuinely loved by a lot of players, and the writers made sure his death stuck with them.
• Tesleen's death (well, the thing that might as well have been her death) left a big impact by being at the very beginning of Shadowbringers. And it played a big part in Alisaie's story by leading to her curing tempering.
• The only issue I have with Hydaelyn dying was her soul dissipating. Other than that it was emotionally resonant, made a lot of narrative sense, and helped close the main story arc.

[Cleretic]

You're still not really making any meaningful point here. You're just saying things and asserting there's some greater pattern to this, when... yeah, all I see here is you continuing to dismiss exceptions with things like 'well I don't care about Papalymo, ergo'.

I suggested that maybe you want to say something more personal and emotional, but I feel like you instead want to go quantitative on this: to be able to say 'all FFXIV deaths fit into these four and a half categories'. If that's what you want to say, then I suggest you do the legwork: prove that this is in fact true, by making a whole project of the categorization. Categorize every single death to show that you've actually come up with a worthwhile categorization system! I've got no idea what end that would serve, but you could do it!

If you're doing that, at least redefine 'the guy nobody cared about', because that's an extremely subjective category that kinda just acts as a bin for you to throw any character that you happen to personally dismiss. I don't think that's what you intend, I think what you're actually trying to do here is to declare these to be characters that primarily exist to die; whose entire purpose in the story is to, sooner or later, cark it. These are your Conrads, your Tesleens, and any number of literally nameless characters. It is not a box to throw in characters you personally don't care about, it's a recognizable habit (in a lot of stories, not just FFXIV) to make characters primarily for the purposes of dying for plot furtherance, stakes-raising or tone-setting.

[StormChase]

You're still not really making any meaningful point here. You're just saying things and asserting there's some greater pattern to this, when... yeah, all I see here is you continuing to dismiss exceptions with things like 'well I don't care about Papalymo, ergo'.

I suggested that maybe you want to say something more personal and emotional, but I feel like you instead want to go quantitative on this: to be able to say 'all FFXIV deaths fit into these four and a half categories'. If that's what you want to say, then I suggest you do the legwork: prove that this is in fact true, by making a whole project of the categorization. Categorize every single death to show that you've actually come up with a worthwhile categorization system! I've got no idea what end that would serve, but you could do it!

If you're doing that, at least redefine 'the guy nobody cared about', because that's an extremely subjective category that kinda just acts as a bin for you to throw any character that you happen to personally dismiss. I don't think that's what you intend, I think what you're actually trying to do here is to declare these to be characters that primarily exist to die; whose entire purpose in the story is to, sooner or later, cark it. These are your Conrads, your Tesleens, and any number of literally nameless characters. It is not a box to throw in characters you personally don't care about, it's a recognizable habit (in a lot of stories, not just FFXIV) to make characters primarily for the purposes of dying for plot furtherance, stakes-raising or tone-setting.

Yeah, I know it's a personal observation because a lot of these are pretty subjective. I think, like you said, what I was trying to put into words was characters I'm guessing were made to die or killed to clear space. "The Guy Nobody Cared About" is more of a hyperbolic title. Also the quantitative route is doable but not really an option for the forums since there's a 3000-character limit.