Gaius and the two Ascian. Dawntrail/8.0 Spoiler

So with 8.0 is coming up. We need to ask what happen to Deudalaphon and Altima? We know that Gaius fought and defeated them, but we don't know how he did it since killing an ascian is easier said then done. I hope that in 8.0 or in 7.4 we finally learn what happen to the two of them and if they are still alive or not.

It is also a good reason for Gaius to join us in 8.0 with the remaining ascians.

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Originally Posted by Pimsan20

So with 8.0 is coming up. We need to ask what happen to Deudalaphon and Altima? We know that Gaius fought and defeated them, but we don't know how he did it since killing an ascian is easier said then done. I hope that in 8.0 or in 7.4 we finally learn what happen to the two of them and if they are still alive or not.

It is also a good reason for Gaius to join us in 8.0 with the remaining ascians.

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I wonder if Gaius is aware (or was, maybe he was updated offscreen) that Ascians aren't that simple to defeat.

Regardless, I'm glad they're exploring the remaining Ascians to an extent. It would be interesting to see them engaging in a personal agenda, plus I feel it would be a major plot hole if they went by completely forgotten.

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Originally Posted by Raikai

I wonder if Gaius is aware (or was, maybe he was updated offscreen) that Ascians aren't that simple to defeat.

Regardless, I'm glad they're exploring the remaining Ascians to an extent. It would be interesting to see them engaging in a personal agenda, plus I feel it would be a major plot hole if they went by completely forgotten.

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I think that a lot of people are bother by that fact. Even i wonder what really happen to them. And if Gaius would also come to find the remaining ascian to be sure that some of them have chance for the better or not.

Besides Deudalaphon and Altima, whose masks Gaius had, there's also Halmarut and Pashtarot.

And regarding those first two, Yoshi-P had this to say about them from a QA taken after 6.0:

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Originally Posted by Summarized Response from Letter from the Producer LIVE Part LXVIII (03/03/2022)

Perhaps a few of the sundered Ascians are still around, though it’s unclear whether they would be on the Source or one of the Reflections.

The masks Gaius carries around once belonged to Altima and Deudalaphon. However, Gaius simply had their masks, and whether or not he truly vanquished them has yet to be clarified. A point you may want to consider in your theories is what it takes to vanquish an Ascian.

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At the time, I thought they were just trying to rush two more Ascians off-stage. They seemed to be trying to hurry that along even before that. But then Yoshida put them back on the table. Maybe. Kind of.

It remains funny to me that we really have no idea how many are left.

Pashtarot and Halmarut unmentioned.
Altima and Deudalaphon maybe vanquished, maybe not.
Mitron speculates that they might have found another Mitron while he was Eden (but they don't appear to have risen another Loghrif so maybe not.)
Emmerololth, Nabriales, and Igeyorhm all could have been re-risen by the time Emet-Selch and Elidibus died, and Emmerololth appears in a scene that takes place after her retroactively specified time of death.
The number of Ascians in the 2.0/2.3 scenes still doesn't make sense.

SE probably thinks they're down to 2 ~ 4, but can we really be sure we're even half done?

I laugh about that a lot.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

SE probably thinks they're down to 2 ~ 4, but can we really be sure we're even half done?.

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And that's not even bringing up the black-masked Ascians of the lower orders with the tarot suit names.

I think the last time we saw them was HW.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

At the time, I thought they were just trying to rush two more Ascians off-stage. They seemed to be trying to hurry that along even before that. But then Yoshida put them back on the table. Maybe. Kind of.

It remains funny to me that we really have no idea how many are left.

Pashtarot and Halmarut unmentioned.
Altima and Deudalaphon maybe vanquished, maybe not.
Mitron speculates that they might have found another Mitron while he was Eden (but they don't appear to have risen another Loghrif so maybe not.)
Emmerololth, Nabriales, and Igeyorhm all could have been re-risen by the time Emet-Selch and Elidibus died, and Emmerololth appears in a scene that takes place after her retroactively specified time of death.
The number of Ascians in the 2.0/2.3 scenes still doesn't make sense.

SE probably thinks they're down to 2 ~ 4, but can we really be sure we're even half done?

I laugh about that a lot.

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Either way, it is nice to see what the remaining ascians are doing. Although i suspect that either one of them have a sponsor since Zodairk is gone now. Without him and the unsundered, it would be a perfect moment for a being not from Etheirys or from the XIV universe.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

Emmerololth, Nabriales, and Igeyorhm all could have been re-risen by the time Emet-Selch and Elidibus died, and Emmerololth appears in a scene that takes place after her retroactively specified time of death.

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There's also a scene after Nabriales dies when they act like him dying was unprecedented... despite Emmerololth dying, according to later canon, before he did.

I think we sorta have to call that one a wash, honestly. Especially because Emmerololth died in the events leading to Eureka, and if there's one part of the game's lore that the developers are weirdly attached to, it's Eureka; I genuinely feel like if they're picking one of these two to hold to, Eureka lore takes precedence over what was incidentally implied in Ascian cutscenes that the developers wrote while they were desperately throwing spaghetti at the wall to see what sticks.


As to whether or not Gaius successfully killed those Ascians, we're deliberately left inconclusive, so I think the intention was 'they're dead unless the writers eventually want two more Ascians in the wings'. I wouldn't expect the 7.3 Ascian to be either of those, simply because it makes sense to hit the two complete unknowns before the writers get so desperate to have to go back on what might be previously-established kills.

Personally, I hope we only have two left. The storytelling potential in Gaius successfully killing two Ascians is far more interesting to me than having to fight two more Ascians ourselves. Honestly, I'm disappointed we're already going back into 'pick off the spares' instead of letting newer villains establish themselves.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

The storytelling potential in Gaius successfully killing two Ascians is far more interesting to me than having to fight two more Ascians ourselves.

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This is where I'm at, as well. Seeing as the Garlean expansion was scrapped, Gaius's character arc was kneecapped (again) and then Endwalker was so condensed of a rush to the finish line that there wasn't even time to include Midgardsormr, never mind Gaius.

I fully envisioned him sacrificing himself taking out an overlord in the capstone arc to create a path for overthrowing the beings that pit us against each other and threatened our world in the first place, cementing his pseudo-atonement / vengeance.

It's cool to hear that he rallied the defense of Werlyt, at least, but maybe the story is better served just letting him keep those kills if we're gonna skip everything else.



[half-snarky] ...That or throw the "give an overlord a pyrrhic victory" scene onto my Second Capstone Wishlist with Midgardsormr and Ultima Prime somehow connected to the Presence of Silvertear Lake. I'll tell you what, we can claim Deudalaphon was taken out but Altima escaped him until then, just for the fun of linking Altima / Ultima somehow down the line...

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

This is where I'm at, as well. Seeing as the Garlean expansion was scrapped, Gaius's character arc was kneecapped (again) and then Endwalker was so condensed of a rush to the finish line that there wasn't even time to include Midgardsormr, never mind Gaius.

I fully envisioned him sacrificing himself taking out an overlord in the capstone arc to create a path for overthrowing the beings that pit us against each other and threatened our world in the first place, cementing his pseudo-atonement / vengeance.

It's cool to hear that he rallied the defense of Werlyt, at least, but maybe the story is better served just letting him keep those kills if we're gonna skip everything else.



[half-snarky] ...That or throw the "give an overlord a pyrrhic victory" scene onto my Second Capstone Wishlist with Midgardsormr and Ultima Prime somehow connected to the Presence of Silvertear Lake. I'll tell you what, we can claim Deudalaphon was taken out but Altima escaped him until then, just for the fun of linking Altima / Ultima somehow down the line...

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Would be cool if we got an Garlean Expansion. We still don't know what happen to the other legion, so if they will use them with ascians. It could help clear out some stuff that we're missing.

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Originally Posted by Pimsan20

Would be cool if we got an Garlean Expansion. We still don't know what happen to the other legion, so if they will use them with ascians. It could help clear out some stuff that we're missing.

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I actually think an Ilsabard expansion (I don't think it would rightly be a Garlean expansion, those guys fell apart and are no longer the major power they were) is the exact situation where we should find out he definitely did kill those Ascians. I'm picturing a big part of the expansion being finding out what those Ascians were actually doing, what their plan was, and what people are doing with the remains; seeing opportunists pick over the corpse of an Ascian apocalypse plan and trying to use it to their advantage. I'd findthat far more interesting than the two should-be-deads turning up and going 'now, where were we?'


All this said, I have been reminded of an idea that I've realized would be the genuine most interesting way to take the 7.3 reveal: what if it's Travanchet? It being the only black-masked Ascian worth a name would actually be a properly new and interesting idea, while still being a 'congratulations for remembering things'-level pull--and one that would have a weird connection to the Ninth, given he was involved in the Alexander story. And instead of descending into the same speculation about the same Ascians as always, with the same background and previous plan, we'd instead be forced to think about what the largely faceless black-maskers like Travanchet would've wanted or been promised out of that whole deal, and what they might want for themselves now that the doomsday cult has collapsed.

EDIT: Plus, if the thing people want is more new Ascian content, bringing in the black-maskers is an endless new supply! We're here arguing on if there are two, four or five red-maskers left, but we have no idea how many black-maskers there were!

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

I actually think an Ilsabard expansion (I don't think it would rightly be a Garlean expansion, those guys fell apart and are no longer the major power they were) is the exact situation where we should find out he definitely did kill those Ascians. I'm picturing a big part of the expansion being finding out what those Ascians were actually doing, what their plan was, and what people are doing with the remains; seeing opportunists pick over the corpse of an Ascian apocalypse plan and trying to use it to their advantage. I'd findthat far more interesting than the two should-be-deads turning up and going 'now, where were we?'


All this said, I have been reminded of an idea that I've realized would be the genuine most interesting way to take the 7.3 reveal: what if it's Travanchet? It being the only black-masked Ascian worth a name would actually be a properly new and interesting idea, while still being a 'congratulations for remembering things'-level pull--and one that would have a weird connection to the Ninth, given he was involved in the Alexander story. And instead of descending into the same speculation about the same Ascians as always, with the same background and previous plan, we'd instead be forced to think about what the largely faceless black-maskers like Travanchet would've wanted or been promised out of that whole deal, and what they might want for themselves now that the doomsday cult has collapsed.

EDIT: Plus, if the thing people want is more new Ascian content, bringing in the black-maskers is an endless new supply! We're here arguing on if there are two, four or five red-maskers left, but we have no idea how many black-maskers there were!

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There is some logic in your theory. Travanchet does seem a little sus, now that I think about it. He might be one of the Ascians you mentioned.

Gaius and the two Ascians... Two Ascians with red masks, Deudalaphon and Altima, male and female...
Gaius is fleeing the fire after our fight against Ultima and encounters two people: Valdeaulin Ganathain and Severa Souther. Coincidence?
I wouldn't be surprised if these two were Ascians and, like Gaia, simply wanted to live their new lives. So the three of them invent a nice story, Gaius gets their masks, and the world believes that two fewer Ascians exist.

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Originally Posted by Aneshda

Gaius and the two Ascians... Two Ascians with red masks, Deudalaphon and Altima, male and female...
Gaius is fleeing the fire after our fight against Ultima and encounters two people: Valdeaulin Ganathain and Severa Souther. Coincidence?
I wouldn't be surprised if these two were Ascians and, like Gaia, simply wanted to live their new lives. So the three of them invent a nice story, Gaius gets their masks, and the world believes that two fewer Ascians exist.

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This is the worst idea around this that I've heard.

First of all, we don't actually know the gender of Deudalaphon or Altima to my knowledge, since they've been barely present whatsoever, so it absolutely can't be brought in as evidence for anything, especially not without some sort of citation if you somehow have this information and we might not. Granted, going by Mitron the Ascians don't necessarily consider physical gender to be a strict criteria to hold to, so it might not matter. (Incidentally, the only 'still unused' Ascian we do have a gender for is Pashtarot, but he was in that tiny post-Praetorium Ascian stinger so that gives plenty of time to go get a new design.)

But also, Valdeaulin and Severa are actually characters of some pretty big understated importance, because they give us windows into cultures that we otherwise don't: Valdeaulin is a Duskwight Elezen who wasn't from a diaspora (and from a place we didn't think had them, too), and Severa is a half-Garlean from the occupied nations. Those are actually extremely important, have really good reasons to exist, and tell as a lot even just in their one cutscene of backstory each! They're good characters telling good story!

I dislike dragging in the Ascians because they essentially prevent potential new villains from getting the chance to be compelling in their own right, because those villains must either be Ascians or be controlled by Ascians. But making Valdeaulin and Severa into Ascians would do even worse than that: it would erase story we already have.

A comment I saw today made me check on that 2.3 cutscene again and how the number didn't make sense at all. There's 15 occupied seats. There should have only been 13 of them with Azem having left to be Meteor. Could that comment have been right that it's distinctly possible one of Azem's other shards is working as an Ascian? But that still doesn't answer the plot hole of there being a 15th. This is really bugging/sticking with me now.

And I also find it very interesting the idea that the two Ascians that Gaius killed are probably not gone for good, because even if he erased the current versions of them, they were sundered so they should have had shards to fill their shoes. So they're probably still in play.

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Originally Posted by MeteorMachinist

A comment I saw today made me check on that 2.3 cutscene again and how the number didn't make sense at all. There's 15 occupied seats. There should have only been 13 of them with Azem having left to be Meteor. Could that comment have been right that it's distinctly possible one of Azem's other shards is working as an Ascian? But that still doesn't answer the plot hole of there being a 15th. This is really bugging/sticking with me now.

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...oh my god, how have we never noticed that!? You're right--we never get a clear shot of the whole 'room', but if you count out all of the seats, there's very clearly seven on each side.

I very much doubt we can call this evidence of anything other than 'this scene was before they cemented the Ascian plan we know', because they've been enforcing the idea of there being thirteen Ascians for ages, but I do think it's absolutely hilarious how we've spent years dissecting that scene for clues and never even noticed there's an incorrect number of seats.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

...oh my god, how have we never noticed that!?

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Anytime you've seen me joke about how "it's ok to subtraction-retcon the 2.3 cutscene, just take chainsaw to it", this was the source of the joke.

It's not just 2.3, either. The 2.00 "HAIL ZODIARK" scene to this day shows fourteen shoulder-padded, black-robed overlords before Elidibus even shows up.

The 2.3 scene appears to be attempting to depict all fourteen of the 2.00 Ascians + the now-arrived Elidibus (except many of them are just copy-pasted black-masks - standing in for un-made red mask models - and someone forgot to reactivate their shoulderpads, so we snark that the extras must just be interns). Notice also that it includes a spoken line by Emmerololth, whose death was retconned by Eureka to predate that meeting. If they confirm Emm was re-risen .. why not any of the others who were extinguished in the applicable window? So ... maybe better to just change her nametag and delete the extra bodies, lol. (For that matter, would Emet-Selch have even attended the meeting, given the timing, do you think? Not impossible, surely, but...)



My theory is that there was originally one overlord for each world, with Lahabrea being the black-robed representative of the Source, and Elidibus also being of the Source, but some super special mystery somehow closer to Zodiark and keeping the others in line, and that the reincarnates were weaker as a result of being cast to a reflection and having to transmigrate back. That would also fit with there being no hint of a third Original or Emet-Selch at all until Gaius came to deliver that lore update, and with Emet-Selch's offhanded "there used to be one-per-world but stuff happens" comment. (Nabriales only mentions Lahabrea and Elidibus as exceptional, for example.)

I throw this in the "unintended oddity" bin with Lahabrea and Elidibus having what looks suspiciously like a "wow no one's ever killed an Ascian before" talk (that, yes, we have room to claim was just a "wow they killed an Ascian, which has happened many times before" talk) after Nabriales got ganked, hence Emet-Selch's offhanded "I've overseen many changes of the guard actually..." comment.

Most of these things have some wiggle room for reinterpretation and/or addition-retcons, but that 2.3 cutscene is rough.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

I throw this in the "unintended oddity" bin with Lahabrea and Elidibus having what looks suspiciously like a "wow no one's ever killed an Ascian before" talk (that, yes, we have room to claim was just a "wow they killed an Ascian, which has happened many times before" talk) after Nabriales got ganked, hence Emet-Selch's offhanded "I've overseen many changes of the guard actually..." comment.

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I think this one could be an easily squared circle if they wanted to just by confirming the emphasis wasn't 'wow, they killed an Ascian', it was 'wow, they killed an Ascian'. The Students of Baldesion had to nuke their entire island base into the Lifestream to kill Emmerololth, and here the Scions are managing to kill Nabriales using a broken stick with only one casualty! And if you take the Convocation titles to be relevant to anything (which I don't think anybody should), Nabriales was supposed to be the guy that's good at this!

But yeah, this really does just cement that basically every ARR Ascian scene is a goddamn trainwreck that shouldn't be studied too closely. Like, if the developers weren't even consistent about the number of chairs they should have, we shouldn't be expecting any other small details to be important either.


And incidentally, the shoulderpads are an inconsistency even after the Ascians 'got good'; the Winterer Ascian has a shoulderpad setup that isn't previously represented by anything, with no spikes but with the armored upper arm. Mitron couldn't even remain consistent about their shoulderpad status between consecutive cutscenes in the same patch! That element we've gotta throw out completely, it's too inconsistent to mean anything.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

That element we've gotta throw out completely, it's too inconsistent to mean anything.

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So then, when Alphinaud highlighted Lahabrea's "garb" as marking him as (using cross-language terms here) "of the highest-ranking among the Ascians" ... with his garb differing from black-masked mooks only by virtue of the shoulder ornaments and red mask ... in retrospect we should interpret this not as him delivering a helpful tip that players could count on ... but just yappin' like he's right about everything. Typical 2.x Alphie... :p At least he was still right about the mask...


I remember we also noticed this trend manifesting with the MTG cards - Dark Confidant variants feature the black-masked Ascian with the generic Zodiark glyph, one with pads, one without.


EDIT

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

the Winterer Ascian has a shoulderpad setup that isn't previously represented by anything

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I had just assumed based on the cloth shoulder that it was the usual black-mask get-up with the new material reflections, but that does appear to be the lower half of the "overlord shoulder" divorced from its upper half. Weird.

I keep seeing a theory that posits that Altima's shard on the source is actually Alisaie (warrior maiden and healer that's behind the miracle of curing tempering giving FFT "Saint Altima" vibes). I keep going back and forth on whether or not it's worth exploring, especially since we've already got an ally that's an Ascian (Gaia) and we're literally sundered Azem. But it *barely* makes sense unless we assume that the Altima Gaius fought was from another shard.

But considering the amount of players asking for a storyline that properly puts us against an ally after DT blueballed us in that regard, maybe?