Shifting Sands skip removed from Cutter's Cry. Let's talk about that.

Why was this necessary to change? This cannot be at the top of the priority list; there is way more urgent player feedback that could be focused on instead of removing a QoL skip from an already mob-pull bloated dungeon. Whether you skip the mob packs or not, it makes no difference with NPCs, so why was this done?

I get it, "it wasn't intentional". But this dungeon will have 8 mob packs total if you wall-to-wall all of them! This number might be the most out of ALL available dungeons, and this change will make this dungeon take so much longer than the other ARR dungeons.

Was it because new players get confused about it? I don't see how that'd be a valid argument considering that there are many dungeons that have equally confusing mechanics. Sastasha's clams don't have to be killed, mobs de-aggro from you in Copperbell Mines, and if that's not enough, you can skip a whole TON of mob pulls in many ARR dungeons (some HW ones too) if you just Sleep a mob pack outside of the boss room and let the arena wall block them from entering after pulling the boss, or just pull the boss and die, then take shortcut to the boss and skip all the mobs that way. Sure, Cutter's Cry's skip is the most common one, but I fail to see how it is a problem considering the multiple available skipping mechanics in ARR. I'd have thought it was not considered a problem by whomever designs dungeons.

I would inquire you to think about how a player would receive this change. After it's been skippable for a decade, do you believe a player would find it fun that it is now no longer skippable? After they realize that this basically equates to more time spent in the dungeon, I would wager their answer would be no. Most player's thoughts likely were: "Ah yes, it is this one where you can skip mobs between one boss at least.", which was a positive thing. Its one redeeming factor about the dungeon. (please show your disagreement in the comments, I would like to know if I'm wrong).

But I do digress, it is an exploit. However, could there not have been any other way to design the dungeon such that it would take the same amount of time and not be considered an exploit? Maybe remove one or two of the FIVE separate mob pulls before first boss perhaps? Or for example, instead fighting really forgettable, basic mobs... maybe have a mini-boss in the center of the hot springs we run by? Maybe give a little showcase of the Giant Tunnel Worm boss, and then have it run away, like the Brayflox Longstop's dragon? Please consider balancing it out, especially since Cutter's Cry was not a highly problematic dungeon to begin with.

This change is nothing but unwanted, unnecessary, and a detriment to all players playing the game. The skips made the ARR dungeons unique in ways that no other dungeon is today. Synching down is already painful enough for those who are tens of levels above the dungeon, please don't shackle them there longer than necessary.

Because they added duty support for Cutter's Cry in this patch.

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Originally Posted by Yuella

Because they added duty support for Cutter's Cry in this patch.

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This is not an excuse. NPCs could easily be implemented without removing the skip. There is nothing complicated about it, it is just a path to walk. The NPC's will follow you through teleportation nodes, similar to Haukke Manor. This is not a valid argument.

The real question is, why do people want to keep the skip? They want to avoid fighting those mob packs, so this begs the question, what does this section serve as a purpose in the dungeon? Should we remove the packs because there is already enough in the dungeon? Then just remove the whole section? Or should we make the gameplay actually engaging so that people actually have fun fighting those pulls instead of skipping them?

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Originally Posted by Valence

The real question is, why do people want to keep the skip? They want to avoid fighting those mob packs, so this begs the question, what does this section serve as a purpose in the dungeon? Should we remove the packs because there is already enough in the dungeon? Then just remove the whole section? Or should we make the gameplay actually engaging so that people actually have fun fighting those pulls instead of skipping them?

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I agree with you. Square Enix's focus should be to make content ENJOYABLE first and foremost. But the reality they've given us in patch 7.3 is: Skip the packs or don't skip the packs. That is unfortunately all they could muster as changes for this dungeon. Among those two options, the skip is vastly more preferable, because remember, this is a very low level dungeon. There is only so much engaging gameplay you could get from it to begin with. There is no appeal to dispatching the mobs in those sections as you say, but there can be some appeal in sight-seeing in the dungeons. Simlarly to how you traverse the water park in Ridorana Lighthouse, you can create interesting pathways that don't require combat. Personally, I'd be happy with removing the sections (or some of the other packs I mentioned previously, as the pulls before the 1st boss is bloated beyond reason), as long as the clear time is similar to how it was before patch 7.3.

I'd also argue that skipping the packs also gives the player a small amount of satisfaction, as if you got a free pass to first in line. Again, it is weird, but I'd much prefer it over the damage sponges that are a few bats, some crabs and a cactus. I don't want it to be either of the two options, but Square Enix does not want to make it fun. It would require a lot of work to get right, which I do understand on their part, but that is not an excuse to make gameplay experience WORSE OFF than it was before for players.

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Originally Posted by Valence

The real question is, why do people want to keep the skip? They want to avoid fighting those mob packs, so this begs the question, what does this section serve as a purpose in the dungeon??

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It doesn't have a purpose. None of the non-boss pulls in 4 mans, 8 mans or 24 mans have any meaning outside of padding the dungeon so it doesn't look like what it actually is, which is basically just a boss rush.

What would help, instead of removing elements like shifting sands, would be for them to have the mobs give experience again and give them drops that are worthwhile. Maybe give them a chance to drop the crafting mats they usually put in chests like manor varnish or amdapori stone, or tokens that you can collect and trade in for dungeons gear, mounts, minions, TT cards and such. But what they did was just the simplest and lowest effort thing and strip trash mobs of any worth so they could cater to the ppl who don't actually want to play the game or, heavens forfend, actually talk to another human being in a freakin mmo. So why are we surprised ppl want to skip something whose only value is to waste our time.

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Originally Posted by Yuella

Because they added duty support for Cutter's Cry in this patch.

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That doesn't make any sense. The NPCs would just teleport to you the moment you went to the next area.

is this really a big issue though? The question is whether removing the skip now results in needing to clear the entire group or whether its just a few. Either way, its never really been that much of a time save. It gives the illusion of it. But at most its 2-3 minutes.

IMHO this thread is brewing a storm in a tea cup. Especially when you consider that in exchange the dungeon has duty support now. Its an old dungeon afterall, most are not likely to run it at all.

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Originally Posted by Healiam

I agree with you. Square Enix's focus should be to make content ENJOYABLE first and foremost. But the reality they've given us in patch 7.3 is: Skip the packs or don't skip the packs. That is unfortunately all they could muster as changes for this dungeon. Among those two options, the skip is vastly more preferable, because remember, this is a very low level dungeon. There is only so much engaging gameplay you could get from it to begin with. There is no appeal to dispatching the mobs in those sections as you say, but there can be some appeal in sight-seeing in the dungeons. Simlarly to how you traverse the water park in Ridorana Lighthouse, you can create interesting pathways that don't require combat. Personally, I'd be happy with removing the sections (or some of the other packs I mentioned previously, as the pulls before the 1st boss is bloated beyond reason), as long as the clear time is similar to how it was before patch 7.3.

I'd also argue that skipping the packs also gives the player a small amount of satisfaction, as if you got a free pass to first in line. Again, it is weird, but I'd much prefer it over the damage sponges that are a few bats, some crabs and a cactus. I don't want it to be either of the two options, but Square Enix does not want to make it fun. It would require a lot of work to get right, which I do understand on their part, but that is not an excuse to make gameplay experience WORSE OFF than it was before for players.

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If it was up to me i'd use this dungeon as a perfect excuse to introduce the sand blasts seen earlier before the Myrmidon Princess there as well, but they'd harm you or the mobs indistinctly. Some could even be quicksand that would engulf mobs caught in it and delete them out of the map. I think that would be fun, you'd just lead them to those traps as you run through. I'd like seeing some novel and fun unique environmental compromises like this.

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Originally Posted by MicahZerrshia

It doesn't have a purpose. None of the non-boss pulls in 4 mans, 8 mans or 24 mans have any meaning outside of padding the dungeon so it doesn't look like what it actually is, which is basically just a boss rush.

What would help, instead of removing elements like shifting sands, would be for them to have the mobs give experience again and give them drops that are worthwhile. Maybe give them a chance to drop the crafting mats they usually put in chests like manor varnish or amdapori stone, or tokens that you can collect and trade in for dungeons gear, mounts, minions, TT cards and such. But what they did was just the simplest and lowest effort thing and strip trash mobs of any worth so they could cater to the ppl who don't actually want to play the game or, heavens forfend, actually talk to another human being in a freakin mmo. So why are we surprised ppl want to skip something whose only value is to waste our time.

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One of the biggest crippling issue they introduced with ShB by completely demolishing the battle system, is essentially turning trash into that uninteresting mob bashing. Trash used to actually be more interesting, at least to me, because tanks had to properly gather them, manage aggro, and not have any in their backs (else beware of autocrits). Even healers had to manage resources and MP for healing, and DPS as a result would also help because killing faster would mean resource preservation (both MP and TP for everyone). And that was just one side of it.

I've always liked AoE-ing trash down. Comparatively, I find bosses totally purposeless in a lot of dungeons, although back in ARR they at least don't suffer from the dreaded DDR disease that has afflicted everything since then.

The reason they condensed all xp behind checkpoints and bosses in dungeons is to avoid player friction with some willing to clear the whole dungeon for xp while some would just want to rush through it (notably rouletters). But in my opinion it's just SE creating imaginary problems more than anything in their heads. I've played through HW, SB, and people were always perfectly fine when someone asked if we could clear side rooms and whatnot. I've never seen a sprout tank being harassed for taking the "wrong route" and pulling what was optional to pull.

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Originally Posted by Valence

The real question is, why do people want to keep the skip? They want to avoid fighting those mob packs, so this begs the question, what does this section serve as a purpose in the dungeon? Should we remove the packs because there is already enough in the dungeon? Then just remove the whole section? Or should we make the gameplay actually engaging so that people actually have fun fighting those pulls instead of skipping them?

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Because it's rare to see skippable mobs.
There are a few others here and there you can skip in dungeons but because it's so rare to come by it's fun to engage with (by ironically not engaging with enemies).

It's literally harmless fun as a cute noteworthy tidbit in a dungeon you'll run a small handful of times.

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Originally Posted by Anvaire

is this really a big issue though? The question is whether removing the skip now results in needing to clear the entire group or whether its just a few. Either way, its never really been that much of a time save. It gives the illusion of it. But at most its 2-3 minutes.

IMHO this thread is brewing a storm in a tea cup. Especially when you consider that in exchange the dungeon has duty support now. Its an old dungeon afterall, most are not likely to run it at all.

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Yes, you are right. It is not a huge deal, however, Square Enix still saw it fit to remove the skippable adds, so they speak for themselves. Perhaps it is a new mindset change for designing dungeons. The question is, do you prefer it as it is now or how it was before? If you get new Cutter's Cry in Levelling Roulette, will you find it more or less fun with the changes?

It is not the first time they've changed a dungeon for the worse. Anytime they update a duty they will also bloat the HP value of the bosses, making it take longer compared to non-updated ones and harder for those who don't have good gear to deal with it. An example of this is Castrum Abania, where the 2nd boss received a huge HP pool compared to its previous version. Its mechanics were also less interesting and requires you to not think anymore. So if you want an answer to "is this really a big issue though?", then yes, as their terrible design decisions does add up as they keep making them. Similarly, the "2-3 minutes" adds up with everyone completing the dungeon. The "Its an old dungeon after all, most are not likely to run it at all". Unfortunately this is also untrue, as the biggest chunk of the player base will have access to this dungeon. A lot of people are looking to rank up in their Grand Company, which requires the dungeon mob hunts. Sure, it has duty support now, but it is clear which option is faster among player vs NPC. And once it's unlocked, it will show up in their Levelling Roulette, taking you at level 100 into it as well.

Do you want to play this game where everything is a damage sponge, or do you want exciting, fun and interesting duties? Being compliant with this change makes it look like you support the first option.

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Originally Posted by Valence

If it was up to me i'd use this dungeon as a perfect excuse to introduce the sand blasts seen earlier before the Myrmidon Princess there as well, but they'd harm you or the mobs indistinctly. Some could even be quicksand that would engulf mobs caught in it and delete them out of the map. I think that would be fun, you'd just lead them to those traps as you run through. I'd like seeing some novel and fun unique environmental compromises like this.

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This is exactly why I wanted to make this post. There are so many better ideas they could've implemented to AT LEAST make the dungeon interesting enough so you wouldn't notice that it took longer to complete. I despise the lazy updates that creates time sinks, rather than gameplay elements. As they updated Thousand Maws of Toto-Rak, they also removed one of the few dungeons with a unique layout. It is faster now I think, but it has been made into slop that is uninteresting.

I'm happy this happened. I'm not interested in speed running and skipping mobs, I like engaging with mobs.

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Originally Posted by Elephantality

I'm happy this happened. I'm not interested in speed running and skipping mobs, I like engaging with mobs.

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It's not about speed running. It's about making the game interesting and fun. I do like engaging with mobs as well, but at this level, my rotation boils down to 1 button, which is not very engaging. That is why I ask for them to make something different content wise to make up for the lack of mechanical content present compared to a level 100 dungeon, where you actually have to focus on your rotation to get it right. I am asking for a tad bit more innovation in the dungeon design that is not just trash->trash->boss->trash->trash->boss etc. You would enjoy it more as well if you were to give it a thought.

Ran Cutter's Cry around 25 times in a row last Moogle event, so any changes made to the dungeon were pretty noticeable to me.

I'd say a good 80% of my runs had people skipping the mobs no problem; I'd always ask 'Run or fight?' just to make sure. A few times some people in the party didn't want to skip and preferred killing them which was perfectly fine. However, those handfuls of times where there was a miscommunication or a new player didn't understand, I could see that being a really bad experience for them. People would get left behind because they didn't understand what everyone else was doing, die, and then be effectively stranded until the rest of the party pulled the boss (which not everyone knew would offer a port to the dead player).

I imagine it's very frustrating to get killed in such a cheap way because you were 'out of the know' or caught on too late. Playing the "can I hit the pop-up prompt before mobs interrupt me" game isn't very fun either. I can understand why they changed that part of the dungeon for that reason alone. I did like having a reason to communicate with my party though.

Some kind of proper mob gauntlet run in dungeons, like you find in other games, could be fun to have. Sections of dungeons where you kite mobs instead of killing them would be different and maybe even employ some of those rarely used spells. I'd like to see that. Not sure Cutter's Cry specifically was the place for it, seeing as they also altered the bosses to be even easier/simpler the same patch.

Killing the mobs should still award exp Idk why they removed that w/o any reward for killing them adds are just a chore to deal with.

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Originally Posted by Kahnha

Killing the mobs should still award exp Idk why they removed that w/o any reward for killing them adds are just a chore to deal with.

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We were told two reasons, i make no claim as to the truth. One was that with side rooms/extra mobs having exp you had potentially two goals at odds with each other. The newer leveling player who wanted every bit of exp they could get from the dungeon, and the experienced player who wanted to get in and out as quickly as possible and saw no benefit from the tiny bit of exp lost by skipping them. The second was that you would see bot groups(and the occasional min-max group) go into a dungeon(often aurum vale), kill the mobs in the first room, and leave without fighting the first boss - then que again. We were told something vague about this causing issues with the servers. So the mob exp was removed, and it was added as extra exp on the bosses which could potentially solve both problems. Or so we were told.