So... Dungeon healers is done for?

At LL, Yoshi-p spoke about letting everyone use Phoenix Dawn on dungeons. So, I can say that he's doubling down on turning healers even less useful. Not even resurrection.

That game is getting more and more Final Tank XIV.

ACN/SMN (post Lv.12) and RDM (post Lv.64) can already resurrect party members in dungeons, so it's not as if healers have any sort of exclusivity on that.

And a tank that isn't good enough to prevent other party members from dying likely won't be able to keep them alive after they resurrect with minimal HP/MP.

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Originally Posted by AmiableApkallu

ACN/SMN (post Lv.12) and RDM (post Lv.64) can already resurrect party members in dungeons, so it's not as if healers have any sort of exclusivity on that.

And a tank that isn't good enough to prevent other party members from dying likely won't be able to keep them alive after they resurrect with minimal HP/MP.

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That really doesn’t make anything better

That basically means relying on the competency AND benevolence of the tank to not spend 15 minutes on the floor just because your healer made a mistake

Personally I think this is something that they should've done long ago - say, at the game's inception. But right now, years after they made tank's sustenance broken and nonhealer HPS to such a degree? It's hard to not think of this is their way to give even more power to non healers/SMN/RDM. Especially when they've mentioned it will have 6m cooldown and stackable to 999pcs from vendors; why then, not make them a Duty Action? Saves item slot and the "sorry I don't know the change/I do not buy them"-excuses that will surely come up one way or another.

It's an inoffensive "should've done this long ago but better than never I guess?"-change at best.

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Originally Posted by miraidensetsu

At LL, Yoshi-p spoke about letting everyone use Phoenix Dawn on dungeons. So, I can say that he's doubling down on turning healers even less useful. Not even resurrection.

That game is getting more and more Final Tank XIV.

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So here's why its not as deep as you think it is:
- phoenix dawn is a long cast that can get interrupted by any damage (think interacting with objects in dungeons, if something hits you it resets)
- 360s cooldown, likely putting your other potions on cooldown for that time, making it annoying to use.

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Originally Posted by miraidensetsu

At LL, Yoshi-p spoke about letting everyone use Phoenix Dawn on dungeons. So, I can say that he's doubling down on turning healers even less useful. Not even resurrection.

That game is getting more and more Final Tank XIV.

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I mean, in a way, good?

If they want to take class balance serious, at some point spammable rezzes have to go. Yeah Phoenix Down is just as bad a solution, but it needs to be changed either way. 1 rezz per combat per player, etc. 3 rezzes total in a fight in a raid akin to WoW, stuff like that. Spammable rezz is part of the problem, and also part of a class budgeting issue, the "rezz tax".

However, much as I have just said that, I have exactly -6% faith that the devs can actually rebalance classes at all. Mostly because they seem to be utterly unwilling to be all but the most cursory of changes. Even the big "full class reworks" like Summoner... change surprisingly little, in the end. The class went from a fixed-rotation DPS to a fixed-rotation DPS. In theory also from a pet-job to a non-pet one, which would be meaningful, only pets had been so neutered before, it hardly mattered at that point. I don't trust the devs in this regard. They never want to actually change anything of meaning.

I'd rather have raises based on resources and scarcity that actually matters as a middle ground, instead of an arbitrary amount of raises per fight.

Honestly people really need to start making more PFs with 1 tank 3 dps it's going to be a lot faster to clear. Maybe that would get the message across or maybe not who knows...

Healer is a grief role in dungeons that serves no purpose other then to slow down your dungeon run because it brings nothing of value to a dungeon now, Not even rez (which yeah smn/rdm could already do but its a lot more showing now everyone can rez).

I think it's great. This way, the DPS and tank can raise a healer that died instead of it leading to an inevitable wipe. It'll be super useful for mentor roulette and struggling parties. I don't think people will use them or even carry them around unless they absolutely have to, so healers have nothing to fear imo.

do t forget that most DPS have string Heals too so ya the Trinity is dead. also if people would stop complaining about wipe and mistake all those change would never have happen making healer so useless that it is the most "inefficient" way now

I think Phoenix Down in combat will be great for the health of the game. Being in a dungeon where a Tank solos a boss from 80% is definitely infuriating. Phoenix Downs don't cost MP either so I imagine a lot of healers will actually be the ones to use them for efficiency. If I can find the time to hardcast a rez I can just as easily use an item with a cast time.

Dungeons are too easy, thats why healers feel useless in them. They simply don't punish you for underutilized tools, so they end up being a green dps. I also would like harder dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Altina_Orion

Dungeons are too easy, thats why healers feel useless in them. They simply don't punish you for underutilized tools, so they end up being a green dps. I also would like harder dungeons.

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Technically we have them, they're called Criterion. But they're few and far between.

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Originally Posted by Carighan

Technically we have them, they're called Criterion. But they're few and far between.

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Yes, but when i said harder i didnt mean a 4 person savage level dungeon. I meant make dungeon not be jokes

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Originally Posted by Altina_Orion

Yes, but when i said harder i didnt mean a 4 person savage level dungeon. I meant make dungeon not be jokes

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The problem is, in part, how easy it is to out gear the dungeons. If you go in when barely scraping by the item level requirements they're a lot harder. The first few weeks of an expansion before crafted, tome, and Savage gear come out people are always going, "Whoa, they made dungeons hard this expansion!" Then the gear comes out and we're back to stomping them. This would be like that period last year where Neo Kingdom and EX gear was the best available but many people were still hitting endgame fresh and working their way into that gear.

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Originally Posted by Wyndam

The problem is, in part, how easy it is to out gear the dungeons. If you go in when barely scraping by the item level requirements they're a lot harder. The first few weeks of an expansion before crafted, tome, and Savage gear come out people are always going, "Whoa, they made dungeons hard this expansion!" Then the gear comes out and we're back to stomping them. This would be like that period last year where Neo Kingdom and EX gear was the best available but many people were still hitting endgame fresh and working their way into that gear.

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You could fix that by syncing the dungeons harder

You shouldn’t be able to outscale them as hard as you do

You could sync them harder, yes. That's what they did with the Dead Ends for Endwalker and it helped keep the narrative flow of the dungeon intact. Certain pulls, specifically near the beginning and the end, I was seeing groups wipe even to the end of EW. It took me forever to farm that starbird! I think a tighter sync would be an unsatisfying solution because then you'd get even less opportunity to use the gear you worked so hard to earn. I already feel like I barely get to play at my native item level and I'm item level synced in most content that isn't Savage. I thought Criterion was a great idea that ultimately failed because it was poorly supported with bad rewards. It really needed something more tangible to give it an incentive. Otherwise I'd be supporting that idea where the tuning is just tighter in general. Cloud of Darkness got gear attached to it and hey, people seemed to actually do it.

If we were to nerf the crafted gear down 10 item levels it would lower the performance floor a little when people are playing alt jobs and make things a little harder on average. It would also make EX and normal raid gear more relevant, possibly allowing select pieces of BiS to roll over from the end of one Savage tier to another. We would still have the problem where late in the patch cycle people overpower stuff but I'm okay with that. I think the game needs to let people feel powerful at some point.

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Originally Posted by Wyndam

The problem is, in part, how easy it is to out gear the dungeons. If you go in when barely scraping by the item level requirements they're a lot harder. The first few weeks of an expansion before crafted, tome, and Savage gear come out people are always going, "Whoa, they made dungeons hard this expansion!" Then the gear comes out and we're back to stomping them. This would be like that period last year where Neo Kingdom and EX gear was the best available but many people were still hitting endgame fresh and working their way into that gear.

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I suspect this is a problem that could be solved more generally, but it'd be wildly unpopular. WoW tried this before, "flattening the curve", and while various number squishes were necessary over the years, they've never really stuck to a flatter curve, they went right back.

What I mean by that is: Reduce the relative upgrade from +X itemlevel. (Or alternative reduce the +itemlevel we get from each "tier")

This in turn would significantly curb the power gain from one set of items to the next, as say an upgrade from one savage tier to the next could be +6 itemlevels, not +30 (and likely the extreme one after gives weapons +1 itemlevel from the savage before, not +10, etc etc). But it'd also be wildly unpopular of course because this would mean that there is virtually no perceivable power increase from having this better gear.

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Originally Posted by Carighan

I suspect this is a problem that could be solved more generally, but it'd be wildly unpopular. WoW tried this before, "flattening the curve", and while various number squishes were necessary over the years, they've never really stuck to a flatter curve, they went right back.

What I mean by that is: Reduce the relative upgrade from +X itemlevel. (Or alternative reduce the +itemlevel we get from each "tier")

This in turn would significantly curb the power gain from one set of items to the next, as say an upgrade from one savage tier to the next could be +6 itemlevels, not +30 (and likely the extreme one after gives weapons +1 itemlevel from the savage before, not +10, etc etc). But it'd also be wildly unpopular of course because this would mean that there is virtually no perceivable power increase from having this better gear.

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Yeah, I think you're right. My WoW days are ancient history now so it's hard to think back to it and remember specific examples but I think this would have the same net effect as tighter item level syncing. You get the upgrades in theory and on paper, but not in practice.

Maybe 6 is a bit shallow but I think 30 is too deep. Like right now BIS is 760. In OC gear is 700 and occult special effect at all +2 gives you 600 extra main stat and about 15% more damage on phantom actions (plus 24% from mastery stacks) and with that gear in 700 content you are basically doing the damage a person in 760 does outside of OC

600 main stat is an entire extra piece of left side gear (current chest piece gives you like 540 main stat). So every 2 tiers we are basically gaining an entire extra piece of left side gear. It’s just moving too fast

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

600 main stat is an entire extra piece of left side gear (current chest piece gives you like 540 main stat). So every 2 tiers we are basically gaining an entire extra piece of left side gear. It’s just moving too fast

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That's an interesting point I had not considered, but I agree then. I mean to a degree it makes sense, a full 700->760 upgrade is roughly 700-ish total itemlevel gained over all pieces, so it makes sense that I gain about as much stats as a whole extra item. But you are right of course in that this feels like too much, and it's also an issue because 760 is not the end. I would assume this whole "one extra item worth of stats" could be the entire expansion, comparing the lowest proper obtained sets to the highest ones, that'd be okay. But it should never be more than that, really.

And then if that "squish" would be propagated downwards through all old levels and expansions, we'd see a significant total drop in the power curve (and a number squish like hell in general, we'd probably be sitting at 240-300ish ilvl right now instead of 760), but there'd still be a neat progression. Still, I think like in WoW, it'd be wildly unpopular because it "feels bad".

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Originally Posted by Shistar

I think it's great. This way, the DPS and tank can raise a healer that died instead of it leading to an inevitable wipe. It'll be super useful for mentor roulette and struggling parties. I don't think people will use them or even carry them around unless they absolutely have to, so healers have nothing to fear imo.

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This is, I think, the actual outlook the devs have. Instead of doom and gloom it's now 'Healers now don't need to have anxiety that if they die the team is going to be pissed off. Or, worse, that the tank is just going to solo the boss because they're on an ego trip.

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Originally Posted by Valence

I'd rather have raises based on resources and scarcity that actually matters as a middle ground, instead of an arbitrary amount of raises per fight.

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A capped number of battle rezzes gives exactly that resource scarcity, just without having to visit a vendor after every use / having to fight against auction-house goblins just to be allowed access to shared party kit...

Moreover, he specified "in raids" in that WoW comparison. There, dungeons are counted all as one fight, sharing the max three charges for the full course (though recharging --at a rate of 1 per 10 minutes-- even while in combat, iirc), while XIV would likewise be able to do whatever they wanted with any distinctions between the two.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

Honestly people really need to start making more PFs with 1 tank 3 dps it's going to be a lot faster to clear. Maybe that would get the message across or maybe not who knows...

Healer is a grief role in dungeons that serves no purpose other then to slow down your dungeon run because it brings nothing of value to a dungeon now, Not even rez (which yeah smn/rdm could already do but its a lot more showing now everyone can rez).

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There's some serious sampling bias to consider there, though, as anyone likely to use PF in the first place is much less likely to be taking the unnecessary damage or avoidable fatalities despite their own/tank's sustain that would allow healers to actually be a slight boon to clear time. Put what would be the average DF party after removing the typical PF dungeoneers and you might find it little if at all accelerated by going 1-tank-3-dps.

For my part, I just want to see about an eight of the overheal kit pruned in favor of other outputs and 100% offensive-uptime healer damage to be increased about halfway up towards the lowest of DPS consequent to those changes, and more damage done to tanks (such as by removing Tank Mastery and nerfing only the hardest hitting TBs in the game that might otherwise become unsurvivable without external mit).

The first should have happened just to make the solo experience of healers less egregious already, and the second, to make tanking less dull even for tanks.

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Originally Posted by Nero-Voidstails

don't forget that most DPS have string Heals too so ya the Trinity is dead. also if people would stop complaining about wipe and mistake all those change would never have happen making healer so useless that it is the most "inefficient" way now

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The trinity is "dead" only when whatever arbitrary division of arbitrary categories is split significantly between optimal and "developer-intended" play. In the same way that a job is "dead" when it isn't even decently competitive in the content it's supposed to be allowed to run, or a game is "dead" when it lacks the player counts necessary to carry the experiences it was built around and would require for it to leverage its potential.

That another role simply has access to a specific capacity (though, roughly a third of all rezzers haven't been healers from the start, tanks have had at least indirect access to both self-healing and external mitigation from the start, and even DPS have had access to self-sustain from the start, so...), though, is not that.

No part of having <a role more focused on increasing raid sustain [i.e., healing, barriers, temporary overhealth, %DR, or anything else that makes you live longer without having to CC or kite] through redirecting attackers' attention to a specific unit and applying sustain to said distracting unit, ideally benefitting their party's offenses through handier positioning> requires that no one else can ever partake in the gameplay of redirecting an enemy('s attacks), applying sustain, or positioning enemies. No part of having <a role with a greater than average part of its kit devoted to dealing damage> requires that others have no gameplay interest or significant agency in their damage-dealing.

More so because plenty MMORPGs get away with hybrid jobs genuinely being weaker at each hybrid aspect in return for having two.

But importantly those games (early EQ1, GW2, such stuff) are built around the classes being that way. Pure healers cannot be useful if not enough damage is ever dealt to even engage one pure healer. Naturally the existence of proper hybrid healers who can do healing + X (like current healers being all hybrid healers who do DPS+Healing!) displaces the idea of a pure healer (who spends ~all time on healing) because there is never enough healing need for even two hybrid healers, nevermind a single pure one.

And the same applies to other concepts. We need the battle system to change to meaningfully change combat classes.