So, allegedly, we're getting some manner of broad Job rehauls come 8.0. Putting aside whether we believe this or not or whether it'd likely be for the better or worse, I'm curious what you all would like to see from those reworks for what jobs you're most concerned about.
More specifically, I'd like to know what, if you were to redesign the job in question, would be your Goals, your Design Principles, and even perhaps a sampled Mock-Up of your rework.
I'll add my own as soon as I can, but this is meant as a workshop to share goals and play around with implementations therein, constructively critique others' mock-ups, and so forth, rather than any singular showcase (though hopefully those who want to can polish their mock-ups here for release on their own threads later).
Please make use of the Reply With Quote feature when offering feedback to others' mockups. (You may also want to consider the Threaded display mode for a more organized view therein.)
Make whatever changes you think are at least decently feasible (even if not in keeping with developer trends) for 8.0. Just please reference them so we have the context intended for your goals/principles/mock-ups.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valence
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07-03-2025, 10:01 AMShurrikhan8.0 DPS Job Rework Workshop/Megathread. Goals, Design Principles, and Mock-Ups.
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07-03-2025, 10:15 AMShurrikhan
Quick Links to notable suggestion mock-ups, complete with very brief descriptions:
(If anyone wants their quick descriptions changed, just edit in a note at the bottom of your post and I'll find and swap to your preferred summary when routinely checking like counts on mock-up posts, etc.)
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Originally Posted by Carighan
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Originally Posted by Valence
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Originally Posted by Raikai
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Originally Posted by Carighan
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Originally Posted by Carighan
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Originally Posted by Connor
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07-03-2025, 10:16 AMShurrikhan
Reserved for shortlist of most frequent/detailed discussion points.
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07-03-2025, 10:18 AMShurrikhan
Reserved (Miscellaneous).
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07-03-2025, 03:05 PMCarighan
Are you sure we need 4 posts of space to workshop a handful of potency changes and 1-2 abilities being removed per job?
/depressed motion
Jokes aside, my big one is Summoner, because in theory that job is already where it needs to be, it's just like... only 50% finished.
"All" that needs to happen is:
* Sort the 3 minor summon gems into "categories" (e.g. Red gives highest DPS but is slow casts, Yellow is fully mobile but average DPS, Green is mobile-ish and low damage but has some form of utility). Adjust current summons to fit this.
* Add ~2 extra "sets" of summons. These fit their respective categories, but mechanically work different from Ifrit/Titan/Garuda.
* The set of minor summons is picked at random when the Major Summon ends. ~0 preparation time, work with what you got.
And this would also set the tone for future development: Each expansion can add a new "set" of summons. Oh and please devs, please, please remove the terminally boring Temu Bahamut again. It's the most memey thing, "We got Bahamut at home"-stuff. Why do this? Why not at least upgrade the normal Bahamut into it, if you genuinely think it's a cool ability? Why do this weird, non-interactive, broken, major cycle?
(in my idea, I could also see expansions sometimes adding a major, in which case I'd also say balance them all and pick one at random, though this time you know beforehand which you'll get)
New identity: The "random" caster. Gameplay is about handling random shifts in gameplay, though the overall structure stays the same you still can't react to boss abilities the same way based on which set of minors you got, maybe Ramuh is a single 6s channel instead of Ifrit's two long-casts. Can't just do as-before. -
07-03-2025, 03:13 PMVentVanitasi've long since given up on caring about monk but i'll bite. for a hypothetical overhaul, the bare minimum i'd want to see is just a clear design vision, i.e. what it's supposed to be/do and how that differentiates itself from others in its role. how that may manifest doesn't really matter to me, honestly, but if i had to pick my poison i'd opt for stormblood-era risk/reward gameplay with a touch of more silliness and experimentation added from content like field ops.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
with that said though, if i was the one in charge for a monk reworki would destroy the game with my awful design choicesi would focus on interesting choices and interactions with what a player can do at any given moment like what was present in previous iterations. more tangible impact and agency for buttons rather than a barely noticeable dip in damage. do i want more evenly spread damage, or bigger spikes of damage? do i want to punch faster, or harder? choices like that come with their own problems of course, but i'm personally fine with shifting away from the one-size-fits-all gameplay of modern XIV... which would require working on more parts of the game than just the jobs, but eh, this is all theorycraft anyway.
i'm trying my best to make this post not read like it's barely concealed TK rotation agenda, but i don't necessarily want that to come back. -
07-03-2025, 03:54 PMCarighan
For Monk my sole focus would be on providing a system where each of 3 stances has a lot of choices, and it's non-trivial to decide at each step which one you'll want to be using ahead of time. In fact, I think I'd drop most of the remaining job in favor of let's say, 6 choices per stance, so 18 GCD buttons and only buff + healing + gapcloser on top of that, no more.
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07-03-2025, 05:57 PMShurrikhanNot looking to theorycraft what changes WILL happen, only what changes you all think SHOULD happen, to be clear.Quote:
Originally Posted by Carighan
Would love to see how that plays out if you're up for a more in-detail mockup.Quote:
Originally Posted by VentVanitas
Playing with a more... extreme (possibly unhinged) version myself, largely as a prototype of a couple different rehauls of the combo system (a completely open one and a consolidated ones where each job has sort of its own geometric system of said consolidation). -
07-03-2025, 07:45 PMValence
Does this involve the current encounter model? Because if I had to propose something it would involve going back to at least the level of depth that HW had, which doesn't exist anymore?
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07-04-2025, 12:37 AMAjisaii
I predict every job will lose a damaging ogcd and then regain a damaging ogcd at level 107 and healers will get a mit or something
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07-04-2025, 12:49 AMAtropaReyr
I want to see them bring custom role actions into normal pve. Mixing and matching phantom jobs to normal jobs has been the most expressive i ever felt gameplay wise in ffxiv. But if we get anything like it in the main game i expect that it would be more similar to what they gave us in pvp- an approved list of role actions that you can choose from. I would like more options and variety for overworld content but i wouldnt expect full free reign on subclasses the way that elder scrolls online recently introduced because the devs cater too hard to balancing 2 minute meta savage.
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07-04-2025, 04:16 AMBrandr
I want a melee pet job, a caster pet job and a ranged dps pet job!!!
Also, I want a dot melee job, a dot caster job and a dot ranged dps job!!!
Moreover, I want every class design they took from us back in the game, as new jobs! -
07-04-2025, 04:27 AMmallleable
Gonna be Ms. Walking Casts again, but phys ranged should get walking casts like they do in PVP, BRD, MCH, and the 4th Phys Ranged specifically. For one, I think the phys ranged role needs to lean into being the 'marksman' role, jobs that use weapons like guns, bows, and other projectiles that deal physical damage... from range. And walking casts add some nice weight to attacks, like you are taking the time to carefully aim each shot. And then with how fights have changed over time, the design paradigms for phys ranged makes less, and less sense. Even now with melees having to disengage from enemies more often, fights being faster, and even with ranged baited mechanics, phys ranged still struggle to find their place in the game. The role needs to change, I think they've been paying for the 'sins' of Heavensward long enough.
Also the 4th phys ranged should not have a raid buff. -
07-04-2025, 09:02 PMValence
Okay I'll post there what I wrote for that 8.0 thread in the general subsection then.
Ranged Physical
The role is in the grave right now and has been since SHB released (and potentially SB as well). It has lost all party support identity because everyone and their mothers do party support anyway. Parties are drowning in a sea of mitigation tools, especially on the healer and tank side, but also that every other DPS role brings as well to a lesser degree.
- Solution 1 (easy but boring): mitigation needs to be dramatically weeded out and redistributed to the rphys role as a core of their identity.
- Solution 2 (flesh out enemy damage profiles): respecialize party support so that each tool respects a different paradigm and case scenario: introduce synergies and different types of attacks or series of attacks that favor one type of mitigation or another. Potentially introduce hit nullifiers that can totally absorb a single hit no matter the strength or anything to diversify the system.
- Solution 3 (tentative pvp inspiration): reintroduce crowd control into pve, both on the players' end and the enemies' end, and redistribute corresponding tools to deal with it like Warden's. Improve the UI to clearly show when somebody gets hit by crowd control and requires support. Introduce crowd control nullifiers that do act as wards that offer a layer of protection, namely give back Protect to healers re flavored as a crowd control ward, or as an universal ability for everyone on a cooldown (Purify). I don't think constantly eating crowd control is fun, therefore the need for layers of protection that can break, eventually making players vulnerable and requiring assistance.
MCH
The problems with the job are many:
- Flamethrower plays directly against the job's primary mechanic which is heat generation and needs to be changed. Multiple solutions have been offered over the years, either having it generating heat or consuming heat like a more powerful version of scattergun (but rooting the player in place).
- Autocrossbow has been relegated to a joke skill since it still doesn't regenerate charges (unlike blazing shot), and makes its use in AoE only a gain above 7 targets now if i'm not mistaken (it was 5 at DT's release, and 3-4 before).
- Battery still has no AoE application which is an eyesore, especially when things like Crown Collider literally have AoE visuals. It was less of a problem before the introduction of Chainsaw which is literally an AoE skill generating battery, battery which has no use in AoE.
- Nothing interacts with each other in the kit, it's just about throwing big damage tools on cooldown. It's boring and unrewarding, just annoying when the player misses a GCD and drift at best.
- Tools are all flare no substance: they're just damage buttons that can charge battery for some of them.
- Battery is utterly boring and a gameplay denial where it's just a fire and forget button, and the pet (Queen) is full of infuriating bugs (stops attacking, doesn't use the finisher when changing targets, doesn't dash to the target unless the player specifically uses an ability, doesn't work when the player gets disabled or the terrain changes, etc).
What the job has lost:
- Its primary damage profile which used to be the biggest burst in the game by far (10-15s burst packed with 50% of its damage profile). This was centered around Wildfire, which encouraged skill play depending on what the player was able to put inside and constantly trying to go for the highest number possible was part of the (serotonin) reward, versus today where it just counts GCD hits (boring).
Consider splitting Wildfire into two skills: the Wildfire on a big cooldown that would work like a burst compiling damage like before (like current pvp Death Warrant), and a smaller detonator on say, 30s cooldown, that counts hits like today and could bring up different plays around multi-hit tools (like scattergun/FMF in pvp).
- Heat management (SB profile): one of the only unique resource gauges that wasn't just about building/spending gauge, and instead had the player balance heat to keep enough of it for damage but not to overheat the gun.
Bring back the old Cooldown which was used to dump heat, attach cool effects to it like potency and mobility boosts (3-5s sprint)
- Actual pets to manage and pick from depending on the situation (Rook vs Bishop).
Bring back Bishop at the very least in its pvp version: offers a pulsing barrier on a radius that also deals damage to enemies
- Ammo procs and Reload abilities: it is unacceptable to completely remove what made the job what it was and give the middle finger to everybody that loved it. Ammo was great, and needs to be back. Ammo was what brought skill expression to the job, notably adding a layer of variability in the burst patterns depending on the procs the player would start the burst with. RDM has siphoned some of those concepts notably with the newest formula behind Acceleration, but still doesn't come close at all to an unique playstyle of building up procs and spending them like MCH used to.
Consider introducing different ammo types for different uses in the rotation, or perhaps a quick reload button for ammo and a reload button reloading drill heads
- Damage party support: Hypercharged turrets would debuff the target with a vuln effect for 28ish seconds (tied to turret autos).
Rook could be a battery tool that does this
- Resource party support: Promoted turrets would regen MP/TP for the whole party, at the cost of the job's damage (since the turret would stop attacking).
I am neutral on having to sacrifice damage for this as I don't think the current community is mature enough to handle opportunity cost scenari, as seen with the long threads about damaging gap closers, but still consider bringing back a paradigm in pve where MP and resources actually matter nonetheless
- MP gauge use: Turret Promotion would use the MP gauge to refresh the party. The effect would be doubled by Hypercharge, meaning the player could choose between using Hypercharge for party damage or for party resource support.
A lot of jobs are in a dire need to have their MP gauge put back to use
- Its identity as a debuffer: suppressive fire (melee range stun), head graze (long range silence), rend mind, etc.
Not very useful in a pve paradigm where crowd control is not very useful, like foot and leg graze, but still useful in specific environments like dungeons or especially deep dungeons. If crowd control makes a comeback, this would shine all the better.
Other potential ideas:
- Minor cast times on big nukes like tools or FMF for a more tactile weight behind those, much like for SAM's Iajutsu or RPR's Communio.
- Marksman's Spite, unlocked by specific mechanics to be determined, like something inspired from the old Between the Eyes where its potency is tripled when the target suffers from Bind, Stun or Sleep.
- Bioblaster: inflicts Heavy.
- Air Anchor: inflicts Bind.
- Chainsaw: inflicts Bleed.
- Drill: would be fun to have Guard/Diamondback in pve where some mobs would use it and you could either wait it out or just use Drill to break it (some other jobs would obviously have some tools like this, like PLD's shield bash, etc).
- Reassemble: can be paired with some tools (turns the bind from Anchor into a Stun, turns Heavy from Bio into a Sleep, turns Bleed from Chainsaw into Vuln, autocrits Drill, etc).
- Make Scattergun a multi-hit like in pvp and make it interact with WF that way (uncap WF's amount of potential hits). Same for Full Metal Field.
- More flavor oriented: bring back the unheated variants of shots, and make them heated only under overheat.
DNC
Problems with the job:
- Tillana grants 50 esprit gauge but has no real control over the gauge which leads to annoying overcaps: even if the player delays it to dump gauge, nothing guarantees that a Devilment surge of esprit procs will refill the gauge just after anyway, and delaying means drifting, which isn't recoverable.
- Too simple, not enough skill ceiling. Just press what lights up and use dances on cooldown and you're set. Only optimization really possible is spooling Fans for burst (which also makes the burst funnier and more hectic).
What the job has lost:
- Procs prioritization: procs from Flourish would overwrite normal procs. Whether this is good or bad, I am pretty neutral about it, but it certainly removed skill expression. Perhaps too annoying with gauge micromanagement before though.
- Melee AoE during single target bursts: this is a big loss of range identity for the job.
- Gauge generation from Improv: why??
Potential ideas:
- En-Avant guaranteeing procs on the next GCD (opportunity cost scenario, if the community hates it, then scratch that)
- Starfall grants a speed boost to the DNC and the partner.
- Sabre grants a damage buff between DNC and partner.
- Please introduce one of the most rewarding pvp abilities to pve: Solo Step and Dance of the Dawn. If DotD is too much of an iconic nuke for the burst of the job, then consider using something else instead. Whether the ability just fills up party gauge when the party kills something, or whether it does something else, whatever works.
- Same for Honing Dance, it's too unique to be ignored.
BRD
Problems (where to begin...):
- Empyreal Arrow not having charges, leading to crazy rigid GCD structures making the job infuriating to play at anything else than optimal speeds, else it turns into a clipping fiesta (it's still a clipping fiesta even at optimal speeds). A simple charge would alleviate the problem almost entirely.
- Iron Jaws is a punishing mechanic that just feels bad when the player just loses attention for a handful of seconds and the dots drop at the worst time. Honestly consider removing that skill out of the game or do something else about it.
- Army's Ethos is a bad and clunky mechanic that is supposed to give Army's some meaning, but ultimately only constrains the song rotation to a fixed sequence with no agency whatsoever, and on top of it makes the following bursts insanely tight (at least similar to SB MCH overheat), which meshes very, very poorly with any latency or microclipping. If each song was more defined into when to use them and what for, we could see different song cycles not dissimilar to the summons of SMN (one of the only things that SMN does well). Songs could also benefit from having a very short recast or no recast at all, provided that the player would still want to rotate through them all notably for Radiant's Finale effects.
- Repelling shot is frankly useless/underwhelming and could benefit from more (range, etc).
- Song party passive buffs overwrite each other with multiple bards, which is terrible. Make them stack, it's not gonna break the game, I swear.
What the job has lost:
- Freeform procs attached to dot crits. This actually gave meaning to the gear treadmill and build optimization, and the more an expansion progressed, the harder and more hectic the job became to play, and a lot of jobs could benefit from this design, not just old bard.
- Freeform procs, period: currently procs are way too predictable (every 3s) and this is ultimately boring. The current design of BRD is trying to remove even more of what's left of rng in jobs today and this legitimately makes me angry.
- Like old MCH, party resource support, as in the old Ballad/Army that offered MP/TP party regen.
- Barrage optimization: now we get a free set of Refulgent when using Barrage so that people don't have to feel bad when they don't have a proc for it. It's lame and removes skill expression, but I do not know how to address the drift that we could have before.
- A more unique Troubadour that changed its effect depending on the song being played. If songs could be swapped around, this would generate skill expression.
- More healing tools as seen in 1.0/ARR, and in the opening trailer for ARR.
Potential ideas:
- A more involved party buff gameplay where it's not just about using a song that gives a passive to the party. Perhaps using repertoire would refresh it?
- More song specific abilities, for example Minuet Minne (additionally compiles all healing done during its duration and generated a shield of X %), Ballad Minne (additionally grants party refresh), Army Minne (additionally grants sprint to the party). Lower Minne's CD a little, perhaps down to 60s or something.
- Resonant Arrow detached from Barrage, instead the BRD gains one Resonant stack per combo completion (Refulgent or Shadowbite), unlocks Resonant at X amount, caps at Y for more potency. Can optionally add a minor cast behind for more weight.
- Introduce Nocturne on a short CD for silences (not interrupts), every successful use would grant repertoire.
- Song repertoire mechanics could use more depth than just "refresh an ability that the player spamms". -
07-05-2025, 04:52 AMhunter2
I want the job system to support diversity of playstyles. I think that's impossible so long as you have party buffs , so I would first remove ALL party buffs (except Bard, elaboration below).
Now that we can have different damage profiles, it's possible to (re)introduce missing job playstyles such as:
- DoT upkeep
- random procs that change the core rotation (not just damage oGCDs)
- ramp-up damage (gradually build and maintain self-buffs)
- flat damage with no burst
- burst windows at different times (30s, 60s, 120s, 180s, etc instead of just 120s)
As for more specific changes:
- MNK: gradually build up greased lightning, which can get your GCD as fast as 1s. No oGCDs at all, they are all turned into GCDs instead. Even Feint and Arm's Length are replaced with MNK-exclusive GCD cooldowns
- BRD: you can still have the songs, just not the 120s party buffs like Battle Voice and Radiant Finale. Each song should change your core rotation more than they do now.
- MCH: walking casts
- DNC: no party buff. You still pick a partner and buff them, but your buff timing can be varied based on their rotation. You would achieve this by building a gauge which is spent on each step in Technical Finish. e.g. you could dance 2 steps every 60s for a 10% partner buff, or 4 steps every 120s for a 20% partner buff. In this way, you are rewarded for understanding your partner's rotation and matching your timing to them. Just like real dancing!
- BLM: revert most changes back to Endwalker, with the exception of
---- No waiting for mana ticks, MP is restored per-GCD used in Ice (any GCD, not just B4)
---- 2 stacks of 30s Leylines on a 180s cooldown. No way to Retrace. You are rewarded for the fight knowledge of when to safely place them.
---- Remove Amplifier and reduce the max number of Polyglot stacks. Flattish damage profile, not bursty.
- RDM: white/black stance to choose between Verraise for prog and more damage for the kill, long cooldown to change stance. Vercure builds (or spends?) white mana.
- SMN: 12+ egis unlocked via MSQ progress. You summon six of them before you can summon the first one again. Yes there will be a meta choice of six but we can make some of them stronger in AoE, twin-target or CC situations so they'll see some use in dungeons, side content and the rare add phase.
- All healers: fewer oGCD heals
- SCH: 5 DoTs & stance dancing
- SGE: a DPS rotation that is at least as complex as current Warrior
- DRK: a rotation that includes spending your HP to deal damage, then stealing it back from the enemy. If you time it wrong around a raidwide/buster, you will die.
- WAR: No self-healing, that's DRK's deal. -
07-05-2025, 08:12 AMRaikai
Just as an overall concept I'd like DNC to feel as dynamic with partner swapping as it is on PVP.
This means, more freedom to hop between Dance Partners. Closed Position doesn't really need a cooldown, since you still need to Standard Finish to activate the buff anyway.
Now, this would be more interesting if Valence's suggestion was there... Like shorter-term buffs with Saber Dance, which is something you press quite often. This as means to encourage the skill ceiling of always choosing a different partner if you think you can seize some bursty potencies outside of the 2min meta. Like a BLM spending Polyglot charges back to back for continuous movement or a Ninja during their trick attacks.
This means a DNC would have 2 opportunities (Standard Steps) to pick a different party member during Technical Finisher's downtime. It would also be necessary to bake in the Standard Finish buffing effect into the Technical Step action, to ensure that you'd be able to fully return to your original partner plan for the burst.
Additional wants for the job:
1) A raise. But before sticks and stones at me, listen out... it's a Dance Partner raise skipping the Brink of the Death debuff (or cleansing it if the person is alive): "Phoenix Step", a 4-step dance that is slightly dps-negative to the rotation (so to add a raise penalty). This tool serves mainly for the DNC to keep their outsourced dps 'going on' after the partner dies, as it returns with no Brink of Death or removes it. It can't be used as an emergency recovery tool for the whole group since you need it to be your partner. And maybe add a hefty recast time from 6-10min to balance it out being an one-time use per fight, if necessary.
2) Closed Position II: A self buff that can't be stacked with Closed Position. It buffs damage done, Standard Finish, Devilment, Curing Waltz, etc, a little further to compensate for the lack of a Dance Partner. This addresses one of the weakest aspects of the job in my opinion, which is the capacity to do well on solo adventures. I don't want to have to swap to MCH just to be able to do well in the PotD solo challenge as an aiming job, for example.
3) I hate the idea of pooling fourfold feathers for the TS windows. If they make Flourish give 3 guarantee feathers, spending them all before the 2min bursts wouldn't be an issue. Honestly spending feathers and getting FD3 procs is one of the coolest things about the Dancer's rotation and surely would make TS downtime less boring.
4) I don't like the idea behind Finishing Move. They don't want Dancers to... dance? If the TS burst was a problem, it's simple! Move the FM buff from Flourish to Technical Step, this way you'd guarantee that it's instant during the hectic burst window.
5) If they really want a cool moment upgrade for Standard Step from Flourish, it could be a <insert neat dance name> Step in which the step key presses actually deals aoe damage, adjusting the numbers to match Finishing Move. -
07-05-2025, 12:59 PMShurrikhanQuote:
Originally Posted by VentVanitas
Going to continue with this line of thought, though it's still rather rough for now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
So, again, broadly speaking the idea is to scrap combos as they are right now, including most things reminiscent of them (Monk's ORC rotations between Blitzes, RDM 6-step combo, etc.); if it gets its own button it should at least conditionally/situationally be an independently usable choice.
This can be done in either of two ways. In the first method, you provide roughly the same number of actions as now, but free them from their rigid strictures.
Monk would be probably the very simplest of the melee thereby changed, basically only requiring two steps to de-bloat the kit a bit, make it a bit less arbitrary / a bit more intuitive, and offer some further nuance:- Replace the form locks with Greased Lightning now increasing damage, crit chance, and attack speed by 20%... but only on Beast skills and with the caveat that those bonuses are halved if the same form has been used within the last 2 GCDs' time and is gone completely if used within the last GCD's time.
This means that in order to maintain your maximum DPS, you still rotate the three forms, but you don't need Form Shift in order to do that, and downtime, Blitz itself, and SSS itself, now offer some further adjustability. - Increase the Beast Chakra maximums to 1|2|3 (while still giving only 1|1|2), as to allow for some further rotational variance, or, better yet, go back to Twin Snakes having a duration and Demolish being a DoT, but uniquely allow them to roll-over up to 3 seconds' of duration from early reapplication.
Such would basically put us at a just more polished version of Endwalker Monk. Not something I'd be fully satisfied by, but still a decent enough result.
The other route is to just build around consolidation from the start, but have each means of consolidation work differently:
For instance, DRG might loop per 3|4|5 steps (increasing with traits), and simply be able to mix-and-match how they see fit between their "Thrust" (ST direct), "Drive" (ST indirect), and "Surge" (AoE) paths, with reason to swap between paths often enough. E.g., Impulse Drive might afflict the enemy to take bonus damage per hit, diminishing over time or existing only until a total number of hits, which Sonic Thrust [hitting several times times for, say, 15 potency each] then exploits better than any other skill, while Full Thrust deals bonus potency based on the direct potency of the skill immediately before it (without setup, Lance Barrage does the most, but with setup, Disembowel or Sonic Thrust might do more).
Dark Knight might have 4 elements to choose from and finish its combo only once its used the same element twice, therefore having combos of 2-5 steps, with the longer the combo, the more vulnerable the DRK is between (and less able to maintain deliberate timely focuses towards specifically Blood, MP, HP, or barrier) but the harder he'll hit, with optimal DPS requiring aligning cycles of preparation so that eventually all buffs would, say, fall off simultaneously just after a 5-step spender and ideally just as the enemy dies.
Samurai might loop its ST path at the 2nd or 3rd step, AoE at the 2nd step, and ranged skill at the first (just augmenting and then spending a bonus), with each GCD still having the option to commit oneself more deeply to ST or AoE, and timing and average loop length being the main way to pick between Haste and Damage (adjusting for the situation and to perfect the timing on Tsubame-Gaeshi and Higanbana, both).
Gladiator/Paladin might split its kit practically in two (or, two-thirds and one-thirds) between sword and shield, giving it unparalleled access to snap-mitigation but not quite so endless of max damage nullification (due to resource expenditure). It'd desire to leverage its shield to maximize counterattack (MT) or thwarting/intervening (OT) potential by playing the two halves around each other, each on a separate-ish GCD.
Etc., etc., ultimately to the goal that each has plenty of skill variety and variety not just in effects but also in playflow despite still having high density.
For Monk itself, you'd essentially have 4 dynamic actions varied by Form and Stance (interrelated, but not quite the same), with each skill having aspects of both, kind of like the faces of a Rubics cube when shifting either or both among Form and Stance.
Will take a while to give a precise mock-up for that one, though. WIP. Will edit when done. - Replace the form locks with Greased Lightning now increasing damage, crit chance, and attack speed by 20%... but only on Beast skills and with the caveat that those bonuses are halved if the same form has been used within the last 2 GCDs' time and is gone completely if used within the last GCD's time.
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07-05-2025, 05:07 PMCarighanNow, it has to be assumed that by-and-large, pet jobs never "get created".Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandr
Or rather when they do, their pet is essentially nothing more than a persistent DoT with a model/animation. It has no functional benefit over just having a DoT with infinite duration + maybe a few extra skills you use yourself. I don't truly know why, but this is one of the few utterly consistent elements of MMORPG design: As MMORPGs age, they remove or neuter their pet classes. DAoC even reworked the Necromancer a few years ago, the one pet job that seemingly "fixed" all MMO-related issues with it by making the pet controller completely invulnerable while the pet is out.
But, speaking hypothetically, I'd love more pet classes and more pet-focused classes.
As for your specific ideas, I'd do:
Melee pet class: The Beastmaster (I know we're getting that already, but I couldn't think of a better name :P )
A job where the vast majority of the power comes from the pet, in raw damage, healing, buffing, etc output. Meanwhile the controller has the job of protecting the pet, healing it through various mechanics, and making sure it can use its abilities as the CDs come up.
You would bring let's say... 2 pets into battle. One damage "main" pet and a support-y "secondary" pet. The main pet has 6-8 CD abilities, but most of those have prerequisities, either in buffs the pet needs on itself or in debuffs that need to be on the enemy, or other such stuff (say being <50% HP). The Beastmaster meanwhile has few combos, but lots of positionals (including front positionals, "draw attention away from pet" that shield/heal the pet but you have to stand in front of an enemy to do that), and these in turn provide the prerequisites. You don't use the pet's abilities yourself however, they're all CD based. Also there's a set of abilities that move the pet, not the normal stuff but also "teleport pet to me", "teleport to pet", that kind of stuff.
The pet has a gauge, its "stamina". When exhausted, it can no longer use any of its abilities. You can feed it stamina, but this is slow. Instead you can also swap to a support pet pretty frequently that regenerates the main pet stamina very quickly while out, and brings healing / shielding / buffing abilities you provide prerequisites for instead, like designate its target to heal and such stuff.
In summary, this job would spend ~80% of its time with the damage pet, which also deals ~50%-60% of the total damage the job does. Meanwhile you yourself are needed to enable it to do this, and handle boss abilities way more relaxed than other melees but in turn you have to move your pet around AoE damage and such (it's not immune!). The pet is the raw power, you're there to make sure it can use its power! -
07-05-2025, 05:08 PMCarighan
Caster pet class: The Summoner (reworked)
Actually kept somewhat close to the current design, but the major pet mechanic gets reworked into a very different thing. After summoning 3 summons (no longer called minor) they stick around in their small egi form behind you. Once you are done and have 3, you can enter the "active control phase". Your character is now stunned for all intents and purposes. Instead, your main hotbar swaps to up to 12 abilities that actively command the 3 summons you have previously collected. Your camera zooms out far as these deliver sweeping and huge attacks more reminiscent of their actual summons in other FF games. You can end this early, but the next set of 3 summons won't enable until 15s total have passed (so you want to use as much as possible before being forced to move).
In return, multiple sets of summons exist and which one you get is random:
* Ifrit + Titan + Garuda
* Leviathan + Ramuh + Shiva
* The Magus Sisters
* Bahamut (by itself, way more abilities and it has to be summoned 3 times before being able to go into active control).
* Phoenix is an override for the next active control phase (you decide to do it instead of the normal one) that deals way less damage but you get to spam AoE rezzes and massive heals and regen abilities for up to 15 seconds.
Ranged pet class: The Ranger
One half split off the Bard, this is a more typical Ranger/Hunter class using a bow and a pet. In a twist on the usual way this works, this one starts without a pet active, instead it has up to 5 equipped that keep joining it and leaving during the fight, sometimes together, sometimes not. This is heavily based on procs to summon the pets, while other abilities are locked behind pet XYZ being out, or even a combination. Meaning that your rotation is extremely unplannable, but in return your average damage is slightly higher to compensate.
Like the Beastmaster and unlike the Summoner, your pets are not immune to boss abilities, so you'd have some ability to temporarily "stay" a pet arriving for 10 or so seconds to try get it past a specific mechanic before it shows up. You can kinda delay some of your combos/bursts that way.
(To not break buff alignment, there's a 120s CD to force all pets to assemble) -
07-06-2025, 12:25 AMConnor
I posted my feedback/proposed changes for Bard in another thread but they seemed relevant to this one so I figured I’d make more sense to link it than copy+paste since it’s a long post.
https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...79#post6720779
Think that’s it lol. -
07-08-2025, 03:53 AMMikey_R
My ideas for Monk for 8.0
As an intro, I have had these ideas for a while (so much so that I had to write them down to get them out of my head). The general goal for these idea is to take what we currently have and make minimal changes to, hopefully, change how the job feels and differentiate it from other jobs in the same group. Starting off with the main change to (most) jobs then going into Monk specifically, then finishing off with how they can change the level up move list, mainly the low levels.
Universal Job Changes
This should come to no surprise, but the 2 minute meta has to go. It was hated in EW and now even more in DT. The main thing it does is force jobs to have to burst every 2 minutes, if you cannot do that, you get left behind. This is a problem as it massively favours jobs that fit that damage profile, to the point where jobs have been reworked in order to better align themselves with this. What has caused the 2 minute meta? Temporary raid buffs. Most jobs have them and with the multiplicative of % based buffs (plus the massive potency associated with these windows), your DPS effectively doubles. Just from a full team of 5% damage increase from raid buffs you get a 21.6% damage increase (to complete the list, 3 = 15.8% and 2 = 10.2%).
However, raid buffs do not necessarily have to be about just a % increase. You can use them to provide utility back to the user, just like the secondary effect of Brotherhood. Take away the 5% damage increase and instead you get an AoE chakra generator where everyone is contributing to your own Chakra gain. So this is the first change to Monk and it is just getting rid of the damage increase from Brotherhood.
Monk
Going into Monk proper, I wanted to bring back one of the things that made Monk a bit different, and that was the more sustained DPS, however, I also didn't want to completely remove some sort of burst period. I also wanted Monk to follow that sort of 'adapt on the fly' philosophy. In my opinion, you cannot really adapt if you are constrained by something and Riddle of Fire being a period of damage increase in quite constraining. For my idea to work monk would have no damage% increases, so Riddle of Fire would need to be reworked, so I will talk about that later, Brotherhood has been adjusted as above. With these fixed periods of increased damage gone, Monk is free to use Perfect Balance whenever it wants, without consequence. Which leads into the next change, Perfect Balance being the 'burst window'. I wanted Monk's burst to be flexible for that 'on the fly' feeling, but I also wanted it to be short to kind of mimic, see an opening, take advantage quickly. This means, with the 3 GCDs in Perfect Balance and then Masterful Blitz, that is 4 GCDs I can call 'burst'.
However, it isn't much of a burst if most of it is still the same damage as your regular combos, so an addition to Perfect Balance is it adds a fixed potency to every GCD used under Perfect Balance. Again, I didn't want a % increase otherwise you necessarily start constraining it to specific GCDs to get the most out of it. The only exception here is Bootshine/Leaping Opo. Due to the fact they auto crit, there is some % damage scaling going on there, however, I think just that 1 GCD is fine and isn't too restrictive.
With that, that is the basic outline of what Monk could be. A more sustained DPS with a very short, but strong, burst window that is not fixed to any point in its rotation.
The next thing I want to talk about is the effects of the different GCDs. With DT, they changed Monk's GCDs from each bringing a buff/debuff/straight damage, to each just being Dragon Kick > Bootshine, but in Raptor/Coeurl form. There is no reason why either of the systems couldn't work with the adjustments above. Personally, I think I would prefer the Beast Fury, as long as they change it back to being a 1,2,3 stack. To me, for the short time it was around, it felt a bit more chaotic and kept me on my toes more. That was likely due to it messing with 10 years worth of muscle memory, but as I said, either system could work here. Same with positionals, whether we have them back or not is going to be defined by how much they change fight design and if it enough to warrant the removal of positionals.
Riddles
Riddle of Wind/Wind's Reply. In my opinion, fine as is, it is just an auto attack increase and doesn't affect any other damage, though giving Riddle of Wind some AoE damage could be an idea (more details in the 'low level' section below'. Maybe change Wind's Reply to also grant Formless Fist, one of the ways you can mitigate the impact of Bootshine/Leaping Opo in PB windows. Riddle of Fire is the bigger issue here. We don't want a % increase to damage as that goes against what we have built, I also don't think just having it provide fixed potency is good enough as that is just Perfect Balance. However, what I think we can do here is give Monk that ranged attack it always wanted (Edit: To be clear, this attack would still be on a cooldown and not spammable). Similar to Viper, in that Uncoiled Fury is a DPS gain, even at close range, Riddle of Fire would be a DPS gain at close range, but can also be used at range. Fire's Reply, then, would be comboed off of Riddle of Fire. However, whilst Riddle of Fire would have a set point it has to be used, you can still delay Fire's Reply so you have some flexibility with it.
Summary
And with that, fairly simple and easy changes that can be applied to current Monk that will, hopefully, make it stand out from the rest. As a recap:
-Remove all %damage increases.
-Perfect Balance now adds a fixed potency to GCDs used inside it and it becomes a mini burst.
-Riddle of Fire changed to be a ranged combo attack.
-If keeping Beast Fury, change to 123, however, can go back to buffs/debuffs easily as well.
Everything from here on will just be lower level things and then what they can do later on, assuming they stick to just levelling up, so if you do not care about that, you can finish here.
Low levels
For the most part, I do think Monk is pretty good as you go through the levels, however, I do think there are 2 things I would change. The first is Masterful Blitz at level 50, however, it is a watered down version compared to level 60. Doesn't matter what you do in PB, you always get the same attack, in this case, it can be Celestial Revoluton. We aren't gaining any Nadis here, it is literally just to make PB more useful at the lower levels and get people used to using it. Here is a fairly low risk mini burst you can do.
The second, I would like to see the Fists return and to do that, I will make them lower levels of the Riddles, of which I will break them down one by one:
-Earth: This is an easy one, there are already 3 effects on Riddle of Earth. Fists of Earth will be the simple damage reduction, later on, with Riddle of Earth, it can add the regen and then finally, Earth's Reply bring it to how it is now. Fists of Earth should be fairly low level, level 10 looks to be fairly sparse, so I will add it there. Riddle of Earth is a bit harder, I don't think it should come before level 50, but Earth's Reply is level 64 and I don't really want to push that back further. 62 would be too soon, so I would propose 56. It might be too strong for HW, but I don't think that is going to matter much. That leaves the final levels at levels 10, 56 and 64.
-Wind: Little bit harder, Fists of Wind used to be a movement buff and Riddle of Wind doesn't have 3 effects, so we cannot just break it down and a movement speed increase I don't think is exciting enough on it's own. It did also used to give GL4, but since we are effectively always in GL4 (and I don't think we need a GCD speed increase) that isn't an option either. Earlier in the post, I mentioned an AoE attack, this would be cantered on the Monk and it is just extra AoE DPS from Riddle of Wind so it doesn't feel as useless as it does now. With that, level 35 should be when Fists of Wind is available, this is the increased attack speed and a slight movement speed increase, level 72 is then when it gets the AoE damage and finally, level 96 for Wind's Reply (which potentially, could also grant Formless Fist).
-Fire: The hardest one as we are literally changing it completely. Fire's Reply is fine as is, so it is what we do with Fists of Fire and Riddle of Fire. I know I mentioned ranged attacks earlier, but it could also be a melee attack that combos into the ranged attack. Either way, Fists of Fire should be single target, Riddle of Fire would then be AoE, like Fire's Reply. Fists of Fire would be learnt quite late in the level 50 range at level 45, Riddle of Fire then at 68 and finally, Fire's Reply at 100.
After level 100
Now, this is where the fun comes in. APart from the obvious upgrade to Dragon kick, Twin Snakes and Demolish, there is one other aspect of Monk that has not been upgraded, and that is Perfect Balance. My proposal would be, if you have a Solar and Lunar Nadi, Perfect Balance gets upgraded (call it, Perfectly Balanced or something). What this then does is put you in a new form, which changes your GCDs into a new attack. All Opo-Opo attacks will be the same, all Raptor attacks will be the same and all Coeurl attacks will be the same. They will be AoE so as to be useful in those situations. Now, ideally, I want a system that forces the use of all 3 attacks, of which there are 2 simple ways to look at it. Either just allow free choice and allow players to do it in whatever order they want, or maybe look to Dancer and force a specific order via RNG (there could be other options of course). If you use each one once, it powers up Phantom Rush's potency, mess it up, and the potency increase is less.
That is my general feel for what I think could be done to improve Monk and (potentially) make it stand out compared to other jobs. Feel free to comment and make suggestions, the only thing I wold be like people to be considerate of if they do suggest changes is the fundamental principle that underlines the whole thing, and that is no forced, fixed burst windows. I should be fairly free to use what I want, when I want, other than that, go ahead. -
07-08-2025, 12:30 PMShurrikhanJust some quick feedback/ideas:Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikey_R
Tbf, it's equally the alignment of the skills that fall therein. The more potency in window, the more DPS a buff can generate in bonus. The greater the multipliers, the more DPS said potency can generate in bonus. They're two sides of the same coin.Quote:
What has caused the 2 minute meta? Temporary raid buffs.
But, as alignment will increase the difference between the whole and the sum of its parts and narrow job composition down to that for so long as DPS checks do not force varied CDs (nigh impossible with such a large gear range and output variance due to skill expression, at least the latter of which we certainly don't want to remove), that's effectively the same thing, yes.
Even just one raid buff per likely party composition will still maintain that, though. I.e., as long as any one among, say, Divination or Battle Voice (thematically damn hard to dispense with completely) are likely to appear in a given party... the 2-minute meta will remain to be aligned with insofar as one can align with them, regardless of whether you remove Starry Heavens, Searing Light, Battle Litany, Embolden, Brotherhood('s damage bonus), Radiant Finale, Standard Finish('s damage bonus), Mug, or what-have-you.
Aye, party-scaled potency. Though, this ultimately just punishes you for having fewer than 8 people (generally, though with some diminish returns possible if there's an ICD on the effect and likely generation would exceed said ICD), at least until you have likely enough conditions for which to have meaningful variation in the timing of Brotherhood (e.g., a period of time over which your allies hit far faster, especially if there's no ICD or said ICD is accordingly scaled).Quote:
However, raid buffs do not necessarily have to be about just a % increase. You can use them to provide utility back to the user, just like the secondary effect of Brotherhood. Take away the 5% damage increase and instead you get an AoE chakra generator where everyone is contributing to your own Chakra gain.
Don't we have that through the flexibility of Reply of Wind and, to a lesser extent, Reply of Fire (best used right after Opo-opo)? Or, if allowing for overcap, through Meditation.Quote:
However, what I think we can do here is give Monk that ranged attack it always wanted.
Heck, at the original 320 potency on TFC (528 effective potency), Meditation was doing 264 ppgcd while the likes of Piercing Talon was doing 132 and Throwing Dagger at 110, iirc. It was by far the strongest ranged (as in, not needing to be in melee) attack in the game with the added benefit of not even needing a target and therefore usable during boss jumps.
(The problem was simply the same Shoha / Meditate later faced. Overcap from in-combat RNG reducing the number of uses available during downtime.)
Why not just let it go a step further with attack and movement speed?Quote:
Wind
Just a spitball, but... Let's say GL were returned (though maybe taking just 3-4 GCDs to ramp up instead of 7-9) and gave an effect or effect-set for each element: Damage from Fire, Attack Speed and Movement Speed from Wind, and Mitigation and Attack Power from damage personally nullified from Earth, up to 20% each (25% for the chosen one)?
:: To reduce the opportunity cost this would otherwise cost you from using Tornado Kick, those stances then might cause you to always retain the whole of that element's effect (e.g., in Fists of Wind, you'd rank up through +0/7/14/20% damage and mitigation, but always have +25% haste) or, say, gain half its maximum from the start (+13/17/21/25% haste).
Not direct feedback, but just some probes:Quote:
<snip>
Assuming the removal of most raid buffs and, say, Battle Voice again only affecting Foe Requiem and thereby mostly just caster/healer burst....
How would you feel if Blitz was just... an MP spender, that spent a % of remaining MP (with a certain minimum cost) for accordant damage that you could use whenever?
Using the GL example from before... what if Riddle of Earth, Riddle of Wind, and Riddle of Fire were consolidated into one skill dependent on present stance. Each would double the effect of the chosen Fists of ~~ stance and shuffled a rank each of the other stances (Fire would be 35%/10%/10%, each with an added twist (e.g., Riddle of Fire could charge up its Chakra attacks, Riddle of Wind could create a wind-clone that would store your next action and allow you to later copy it as an oGCD, and Riddle of Earth would generate Attack Power based on damage nullified). If there were some way to entice rotation of at least Wind and Fire in flexibly-timed windows by which one can capitalize on or set up for the other, would that kind of Riddle of ~~ finally allow a RoF to be more appealing even as a %damage skill? Would that allow for, to your mind, a more interesting RoW?
The latter sounds like it'd feel rather degenerative if in a context where Twin Snakes and Demolish durations were returned.Quote:
Either just allow free choice and allow players to do it in whatever order they want, or maybe look to Dancer and force a specific order via RNG (there could be other options of course).
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07-10-2025, 10:58 PMMikey_RYes, there is a deeper conversation that can be had around raid buffs and their effects, I mainly wanted to set the environment that my Monk idea was based around and give a quick explanation as to why.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
How many people choose not to take Monk or Reaper into Criterion Savage Dungeons or say they are an issue? I do not know but I haven't heard of it being a major concern (though I could be wrong). Any other 4 man content this shouldn't be a concern.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
Admittedly, Fire was the one I struggled with in making a change that fit in what I wanted to achieve. I should be clear though, I was meant to say it was a ranged attack with a cooldown, so it cannot be spammed. I think that alone potentially changes the dynamic involved as you cannot just sit at range and spam the attack out, like you can with Piercing Talon etc. Meditation would then be similar to Viper's Writhing Snap, with the benefit that you can still Meditate even if the boss is untargetable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
Because increasing GCD speed just another way of increasing damage gains by making your attacks come out faster. It's the same dynamic as early ShB, what is better GL3 and FoF or GL4 with FoW.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
Which you could do, but you create a situation, especially between FoF and FoW that will come out on top as mathematically better. So whilst it is a nice idea, I don't see it really working out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
Then Monk would need a way to build up MP and it would effectively be a build and spend when full, unless damage is linearly proportional to the MP spent so that it doesn't matter. However, the bigger thing here is that by de-coupling it from Perfect Balance, you turn it into just another attack with no real meaning behind it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
The problem is, you are still creating windows where it is beneficial to put Perfect Balance, whether it is under FoF or FoW. Even if Perfect Balance lined up so that you were forced to use one in the 'less desirable' fist, you would still aim to put as many in the favourable one as possible. This is reminiscent of how it currently is, where you want to put 2 PBs inside the even RoF and keep 1 PB in the odd RoF. It goes against the entire framework of what I wanted to achieve with Monk.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
By this point, I was just spit balling ideas to try and make the PB window more interesting so that it wasn't just a simple all Opo, or all different. The Dancer-esque system would work with Fury, but another system might work better with the buffs. At this point, the post was turning into idle musings.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
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07-11-2025, 08:49 AMShurrikhanHiding feedback again in order not to cause excess scrolling time between original posts:Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikey_R
Just two points I want to focus on most:
They're not exactly the same, though, especially so long as you return timers to Disciplined Fist and Demolish, though there may, yes, be a best choice in each GCD.Quote:
Because increasing GCD speed just another way of increasing damage gains by making your attacks come out faster. It's the same dynamic as early ShB, what is better GL3 and FoF or GL4 with FoW.
+
[You could allow for a choice between Damage and Attack Speed], but you create a situation, especially between FoF and FoW that will come out on top as mathematically better. So whilst it is a nice idea, I don't see it really working out.
Skills with high individual damage are best used under damage buffs. Everything else is best used under speed to increase the portion of uptime spent on stronger skills, because amping the weaker skills by 5% is not worth as much as getting through them 5.3% (actually quantized by durations, but this is just a spherical cow) faster and thereby increasing the portion of stronger skills that are then further amplified.
Like, if we want the stances to be choices at all, then we're going need to have...- branching paths that still ultimately (though in complicated fashion) have a best answer or
- clear best answers across a 60- or 120-second period (due to Blitz, Disciplined, and Demolish line-ups), or
- at minimum, preferred stances for each action (Wind for low-pppgcd [personal potency per gcd] skills, Fire for high potency-GCDs where oGCDs in gap are obviously included),
or...
- as before, Wind and Earth are dps losses used only as a last resort and rarely able to make any real difference to survivability or mobility anyways (unless you amp the hell out of them, risking making Earth OP overall, or redesign them to use a sort of granular resource)...
- at which point, you might as well have Wind and Earth consume MP and remove Fire altogether, or
- turn Fists of Fire into your granular Riddle of Fire phase -- perhaps only affecting beast skills or adding flat potency if worried about them being overly obligatory for oGCDs and/or Blitz or applying some other way to force stance-rotation, such as, idk, ramping drain costs from staying in a given stance too long.
Whatever the case, adding that allows for some small-gap skill-expression akin to Shadowbringers positionals for those who like a stick-shift feel that's less hamfisted and not nearly so wasteful as Shadowbringers' stances.
Just a thought, not necessarily for the same exact context. Meanwhile, that MP generation could come from, in essence, standard rotation, such that you can have a rushed rotation creating burst phases and conserve phases between. Granted, the last thing we'd want is even more Opo-opo spam, so, it'd have to be for a different structure anyways. Hmm...Quote:
Then Monk would need a way to build up MP and it would effectively be a build and spend when full, unless damage is linearly proportional to the MP spent so that it doesn't matter. However, the bigger thing here is that by de-coupling it from Perfect Balance, you turn it into just another attack with no real meaning behind it.
Not many. My point, though, was just that it's a raid-scaled skill that at best gets up to, well, flat potency damage that'd normally be the baseline, and is sort of the opposite of support thematically (everyone supports the Bard, instead of the Bard supporting others).Quote:
How many people choose not to take Monk or Reaper into Criterion Savage Dungeons or say they are an issue?
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07-11-2025, 07:20 PMBedtimeBear
I'd like healers to engaging in solo/non-instanced duties. I know some of it does exist but more of the damage fuels this heal ability or healing fuels this damage ability.
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07-12-2025, 05:58 AMShimAoki
MCH - I would honestly love to see mch become more of a situational dps with a variety of tools in it's kit that can benefit different fights differently, I'd turn queen into an GCD skill like summoners summons and bring back both the turrets, one is a single target dps and enemy debuffer and the other would be a aoe target dps and ally shield buffer when a gauge is used.
Nuke the battery gauge and get rid of it, make it so that you can only have one of the turrets out at a time, bring back the turrets actions, like make it so that I have to press a button to make it apply the debuff, tie that to a "promotion" gauge where you have a limited amount of promotion skills you can spend on your turrets to make them use skills otherwise they just auto.
Remove the 123 combo and replace it with a single button that's 1.5 second gcds like heatblast to maintain the high apm feeling during downtime of skills, I'd keep the ogcds but I'd bring back old gauss barrel that modifies certain skills into casts or adjusts the potency of skills, I'd bring back the ammo gauge as a limiting factor for how many of the 1.5 second gcd's you can cast, Overheating would become a mechanic where you can expend infinite ammo until you become overheated in some way, similar to stormbloods era, that could allow for some cooldown skill's to return to mch kits and allow flamethrower to gain heat as a walking channel cast. I'd make the tools like drill, air anchor and chainsaw become walking cast skills with unique effects like pvp (I really liked the other persons take on this in this forum discussion aka heavy, slow, stun and pierce). I'd like to see pierce become a mechanic in pve, basically imagine if bosses shield themselves sometimes and only the jobs that can do piercing damage can do some damage in that window and after a certain amount, they break the shield and boss takes more damage for a small amount of time.
As for a new skill, I'd love mch to get a defensive bunker that they place on the ground, any allies standing in the bunker gain a defence boost, imagine a defensive version of leylines. I also would love to see mch get a movement skill since the other pranged have some sort of movement option.
With these changes I'd reposition mch as a versatile support job over a "selfish" job like it is now. I'd definitely want it to keep dismantle or have it enhance, I'd also love to see tactician and the pranged aoe defence skills work together.
They'd know what to do with this information if they even read the forums, but these are kind's of job changes I'd love to see the next expansion get, something to make every job have its niche again in situations and just have the charm of the job fantasy its trying to portray.
(And obviously for the love all things holy, rework auto crossbow and if wildfire is staying, make it actually feel like a rewarding 2 minute, its so bad and clunky) -
07-12-2025, 10:34 PMCaldra
I really like Ninja, I just think the job is really clunky and unflexible right now!
First problem: Button bloat!
Ninja has a lot of useless skills that do not need a button for.
- That's why my first change would be to remove Meisui as a skill and just add the effect onto Ten Chi Jin (next Bhavacakra deals bonus damage)
- Remove Hide and just add the passive trait that all mudras reset out of combat. -> Add Trick attack/Kunai's bane ready to Suiton/Huton
These would be the savest, must have changes I'd love to see! Next I have a few ideas, that would make ninja more flexible and less punishing in its rotation:
- You do not lose Raiju stacks after using other melee skills, instead you can use them whenever you want. (Max 3 stacks)
- Remove Forked Raiju and make Fleeting Raiju into a ranged attack.
And now to my personal, probably highly unlikely change, that I'd like to see:
- Remove Bunshin, remove Phantom Kamaitachi (not needed anymore if Raiju becomes ranged), remove the Kazematoi stacks on Armor crush!
- Instead add 5 bunshin stacks to Armor crush!
The melee rotation would be Spinning edge, Gust slash, Armor crush, gain 5 bunshin stacks, then Spinning edge, Gust slash, Aolian edge, Spinning edge, Gust slash again, that would use up all 5 stacks and then you can use Armor crush again for permanent clone action!
And for my last change, I would like to change the mudra Hyoton, which currently does nothing in pve content.
- Make Hyoton into a 60 second dot with good potency! (Could maybe add a raiju stack, too)
With all these changes you have 4 less buttons (Hide, Meisui, Bunshin, Forked Raiju) and one new mudra (Hyoton) to use in your burst window instead of a raiton!
And a very much more open rotation like Viper, the other "ranged" melee job, which they already share their gear with!
They would lose their gap closer (which was rarely used anyway), but ninja can now just use their new ranged raiju to close the gaps with just running (Nin has increased movement speed anyway) or with Shukuchi.
Anyways these would be my changes for Ninja, the class (that I have played) that needs a rework the most! -
07-13-2025, 12:33 AMCarighan
I'd go a step further even and remove the second main combo entirely, add the effect to a specific Mudra, like you say, Hyoton is open for it.
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07-13-2025, 01:36 AMPip_ChickThe only thing I would like to see with 8.0 would be more interesting interactions between different jobs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
I remember in an old video from Larryzaur (I think I spelled that right) when he played BRD and mentioned playing a song to restore mana for the healer. It was played as a joke, but it got me interested in this type of dynamics.
Also after trying Genshin for a bit, I really like how you can switch between different elements to create inventive ways to defeat the enemies. Like using a Hydro char and afterwards a Cryo char, can cause the enemy to freeze.
Now I am not saying they would need to impliment this, but giving Jobs cool interactive moments that could very from, safe to high risk, high reward would stir up the gameplay and give into new ways to approach fights. Do you want to just clear? Go safe. Do you want a high damage? Go high risk, high reward! Do you want to speedrun? Find the best combos for it! -
07-13-2025, 02:09 AMCaldraNah, I think the second melee combo is necessary, they are ninja's only positionals, but they should be converged to two buttons like the melee combos for viper.Quote:
Originally Posted by Carighan
One button -> Spinning edge, Gust slash, Aolian edge
Second button -> Spinning edge, Gust slash, Armor crush
Same thing should be done to the Samurai combos as well >.> -
07-13-2025, 03:17 AMShurrikhan
Or even return Mutilate and Shadowfang on one of said combos...
Or is the community still on a hate-binge for DoTs (per which the concept itself is inseparable from any dated intuitiveness of XIV UI in general -- including effect caps and lack of any decent effect display filtering) that may hold it back presently)? -
07-13-2025, 07:04 AMmallleable
I suspect that if they could give healers, and mages ranged auto attacks, would further incentivize them to remove more dots. Or at the very least, replace dots with abilities like BLM's Wreath of Fire from PVP.
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07-13-2025, 07:51 AMCarighanHrm this makes me think I'd prefer if the game (and it's near-absolute lack of combat depth despite the 20+ buttons on each class) were more... honest?Quote:
Originally Posted by mallleable
Like, have an actual "autoattack". A skill that automatically casts/hits if you're not doing something else. Paladins for example would have a 6-hit combo, their current 1-2-3 and then the Atonement chain. Black Mages would auto-cast Blizzard IV in ice and Fire IV in fire. Etc.
Would that be weird as hell? Of course. But in a lot of ways, that just saves our fingers from more RSI, we do that with no more brain activity than an autoattack button would. We do exactly that, basically. Might as well make it more obvious how non-interactive these fillers are, no? -
07-13-2025, 08:37 AMmallleableIn my mind, more specifically healer dots are used as a substitution for auto attacks. So to me, there is very little mechanical difference between a dot, and auto attacks with the only major difference is that dots can deal damage to enemies you are not actively targeting. And this is a reason why I roll my eyes at maintenance mechanics because of how comparable they are to auto attacks. They're so passive. I'm also just spoiled by Blue Mage dots where their potencies are so high that you can actually notice them ripping enemies to shreds. But again, you can just move the little sticker from the boss to the player, and have it like quadruple the potency of auto attacks, and achieve similar results.Quote:
Originally Posted by Carighan
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07-13-2025, 11:08 AMShurrikhan
They're almost the opposite of auto-attacks, though? A DoT is a snapshotted high-ppgcd attack with strength per use diminished if used too frequently and total contribution finished if used too infrequently -- essentially a soft-CD attack. Except, also, whereas AAs can only strike one enemy at a time and traditional CDs cool only one charge per action, DoTs can be present and can cool on as many enemies as they are placed.
And then there's the remaining target lifespan (TTK, time-to/until-kill) consideration, too... -
07-13-2025, 01:43 PMmallleableOh yeah, forgot about snapshotting. Oops. But then dots are just another skill to use when buffs are up be they personal or party buffs. The decision making between like current Goring Blade, and Sonic Break are basically the same other than maybe using Sonic Break early in No Mercy. And to be honest, I feel like dots encourage padding which I don't find interesting at all, whereas burst damage is better at like, I don't know, killing stuff. Which given that it seems like they want fights to be faster, maybe seems it should be a little more important.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
While I'm not super keen on dots, I do think there is more room for debuff based mechanics that ask players to pay attention to what's happening on an enemy's debuff list, especially if they keep teasing chemist. -
07-13-2025, 03:30 PMCarighan
Yes, the difference between a 30s DoT and a 30s cooldown DD attack in gameplay are essentially just:
* The former gives you extra movement/mechanics resistance (as the DoT continues to tick while you move, this is important for casters).
* The former can be re-cast early, but this produces no extra damage. But might sometimes be useful depending on the upcoming few seocnds.
* The latter can burst more, sometimes important depending on the fight.
I kinda feel there'd be room for at least 1 DoT-centric job though, 4-5 stackable DoTs of various lengths, then the filler spam attack is one that drains X seconds off the DoTs current on the target, dealing their damage instantly. -
07-13-2025, 04:02 PMShurrikhanTbf, this is only important if there's procs. You're still putting up the full amount all at once, under the effects present on initial application only.Quote:
Originally Posted by Carighan
E.g., if Glare III had a chance to give Glare IV vs. Dia having a chance to provide Glare IV, the first would be more uptime-dependent is present by penalizing you for every delayed GCD (needs each of 12 GCDs per 30s fully timed for max effect), whereas the first would only lose uptime if you delayed the single GCD by whatever number of GCDs (need 1 of 12 fully timed for max effectiveness).
Aye.Quote:
The former can be re-cast early, but this produces no extra damage. But might sometimes be useful depending on the upcoming few seocnds.
Likewise only important if the mob needs to die in less than a DoT's time or in too far from a multiple of its duration.Quote:
The latter can burst more, sometimes important depending on the fight.
(In a 6+ minute fight against a single enemy (the boss), though, there is effectively no difference, since the damage for the whole DoT is snapshotted to its moment of application, identically to instant-damage actions.)
Oh, as soon as tight DPS checks or TTK mismatch (see above) can become an issue, DoTs (as soft-CDs) are objectively weaker than our instant-damage CDs (be they normal/hard CDs or soft/granularly-charged-up ones). They just happen to be more flexible than hard CDs and tend to do something interesting with the gap between single-target and pure AoE since they, in effect, have simultaneous recharge per enemy.Quote:
Originally Posted by mallleable
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Tl;dr: Soft CDs and DoTs are functionally identical except in that the first gets only X charges while DoTs get X charges times the number of enemies but see diminishing returns the further the enemy's TTK gets from a multiple of the DoT duration. -
07-15-2025, 08:40 PMHanzzo_Kai
I’d like to see changes in the encounter design that force more randomness and reactivity in the general play style of pve jobs. As opposed to each encounter following an exact script along with job rotations.
I’d also like to see job individuality and expressiveness even if that allows some jobs to outperform others in specific encounters. Ideally, the devs would build encounters that help balance those performances.
Finally, I’d like to see less focus on pure damage maximization being the primary goal of every job role. Perhaps this means some jobs have buff/debuff roles. Healers have to balance healing vs dps (more so than today). Tanks have to balance enmity generation, defense, and dps. Etc…
Some examples:
1. Utilizing the stun/interrupt system that exists and giving more tradeoffs/decision making to usage.
2. Well timed binds, paralysis may impact enemy’s ability to use certain movesets.
3. Other status effects temporarily buffing teammates or debuffing enemies. Like slow/haste, blind, etc… -
07-15-2025, 08:52 PMHanzzo_Kai
Another thing I’d like to see is more interactivity between jobs. For example, perhaps bard or dancer can give a partner mp regen. This might help a black mage deal more damage in their fire phase or a dark knight deal more damage via edge of shadow or help a rdm raise multiple party members in a short time. Etc…